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At 10:48 AM 1/29/2004, you wrote:

>Ah, yes. A move to a truly healthy diet would almost certainly crash the

>economy.

i'm not certain that this is true. i mean, you might have meant it more for

emphasis, but it's something i've been thinking about lately, what with

leaving the city and becomming a farmer and all...

i certainly think that if we moved to healthy food production, it would

wildly re-organize the economy. but i don't think that it's impossible, at

all, to move to a system of family farmers producing healthy crops and

healthy animals in a healthy way. i think we could still easily feed all

the people and i think that it would be completely sustainable.

i don't think that's a choice that the country is going to make, because

most people don't think that farming is a respectable job, and because the

industries who currently hold the market (big food, pesticides, GMO

companies, etc) are not willing to give up the easy life they have right

now by simply maintaining the status quo. which is a shame, cause ya know.

it's really no more difficult than ww2 or putting man on the moon. just

it's not a priority...

also, after reading allan's article yesterday, i was thinking about

tractors. we don't have one yet: a neighbor does our fields and takes half

the hay in payment. but after that article, all i could think was that i

wanted to get horse team equipment and forgo oil! my husband pointed out

that we could get used restaurant oil and run an old tractor on that, which

would be a compromise for me since it wouldn't require gas and it wouldn't

require new resources in the form of a new tractor. does anyone have any

thoughts to add to this? if you had the option, would you pay more for meat

that was not only pastured and grassfed, but which required only the

minimum oil to produce? (since our labor would certainly be higher in that

case)...

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When I say " crash the economy " I mean look at the billions of dollars that

go to the major drug companies. Think what it would mean to the economy if

that money, or a major portion of it stopped.

Think of what would happen if people stopped taking just one class of drugs.

The cholesterol lowering drugs. Each one of those major drugs garners over a

billion dollars or more a year for the drug companies. And the profits

multiply for the medical industry because of the additional doctor visits,

hospital stays, drugs prescribed to alleviate the miseries caused by the

cholesterol lowering medications, not to mention funerals because of the

deaths caused by all of those drugs.

Think what would happen if the incidence of diabetes were cut in half (with

a good low-carb diet the incidence should drop far more than that.)The

drugs, paraphernalia and doctor and hospital visits that would no longer be

needed. That would be a major hurt for the industries affected.

Same way with heart disease. Few drugs needed, no more surgeries, no more

doctor visits.

Any one of those three happening would have a major effect on the economy.

Factories shut down, jobs lost, etc.

I do agree with you that sustainable farming could feed the world, and in a

much healthier way than they are fed now. If worse came to worse we could go

back to horses.

Back in the 1970s when the oil crisis hit I'm sure the Amish sat back and

laughed at us.

The idea of running tractors on vegetable oils sounds great. And they

wouldn't have to be used oils. That's a far better use for the stuff than

feeding it to people.

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

From: katja [mailto:katja@...]

At 10:48 AM 1/29/2004, you wrote:

>Ah, yes. A move to a truly healthy diet would almost certainly crash the

>economy.

i'm not certain that this is true. i mean, you might have meant it more for

emphasis, but it's something i've been thinking about lately, what with

leaving the city and becomming a farmer and all...

i certainly think that if we moved to healthy food production, it would

wildly re-organize the economy. but i don't think that it's impossible, at

all, to move to a system of family farmers producing healthy crops and

healthy animals in a healthy way. i think we could still easily feed all

the people and i think that it would be completely sustainable.

i don't think that's a choice that the country is going to make, because

most people don't think that farming is a respectable job, and because the

industries who currently hold the market (big food, pesticides, GMO

companies, etc) are not willing to give up the easy life they have right

now by simply maintaining the status quo. which is a shame, cause ya know.

it's really no more difficult than ww2 or putting man on the moon. just

it's not a priority...

also, after reading allan's article yesterday, i was thinking about

tractors. we don't have one yet: a neighbor does our fields and takes half

the hay in payment. but after that article, all i could think was that i

wanted to get horse team equipment and forgo oil! my husband pointed out

that we could get used restaurant oil and run an old tractor on that, which

would be a compromise for me since it wouldn't require gas and it wouldn't

require new resources in the form of a new tractor. does anyone have any

thoughts to add to this? if you had the option, would you pay more for meat

that was not only pastured and grassfed, but which required only the

minimum oil to produce? (since our labor would certainly be higher in that

case)...

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At 11:57 AM 1/29/2004, you wrote:

>The idea of running tractors on vegetable oils sounds great. And they

>wouldn't have to be used oils. That's a far better use for the stuff than

>feeding it to people.

no, it doesn't have to be. but if it's new oils, then there's little point

in using it, since it took oil to produce it. at least if it's used oil,

then it's something that would have been produced anyway. that's not the

best logic, and around here i always feel like i have to have all my

logical ducks in a row! but at any rate, it's better than using oil to

produce not-oil.

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>if you had the option, would you pay more for meat

>that was not only pastured and grassfed, but which required only the

>minimum oil to produce? (since our labor would certainly be higher in that

>case)...

One question is -- how much gas DOES it take to make meat?

The Harper's article brought up a good point also ... that there were

probably about the same amount of buffalo as there are beef cows

now. No gas went into making those buffalo ... they just roamed around

and ate grass.

Most of the beef grown around here are just steer that are

stuck on some land and left to roam (and hay is put in a feeding

station during the winter). In the " old days " they cowboys herded

them on horses ... the farmer is training a Longhorn to be

saddle broke because some folks now are using the Longhorn

to ride instead of horses (they don't spook the cows).

So basically, what you need is some way to go around and fix fences,

and haul hay to a feeding station, and get water to the water trough.

Meat is a lot easier to grow than vegies and grain!

-- Heidi

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----- Original Message -----

From: " katja " <katja@...>

> if you had the option, would you pay more for meat

> that was not only pastured and grassfed, but which required only the

> minimum oil to produce? (since our labor would certainly be higher in

that

> case)...

I'm sure there's a niche for it, but I, like most people, buy food, not

an ideology.

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At 12:36 PM 1/29/2004, you wrote:

>So basically, what you need is some way to go around and fix fences,

>and haul hay to a feeding station, and get water to the water trough.

hahaha - spoken like a true not-farmer! :)

the part that you're missing in that equation is where you're getting the

hay. in our case, we have hay fields and currently a dairyman up the street

cuts and bales our hay, and in exchange he takes half of it. however,

cutting and baling takes quite a bit of energy. if we didn't use a tractor,

and used horse-equipment instead, then we'd store it loose, which we

actually have facilities to do but of course that takes much more manpower.

anyway, that's where the oil comes from for cows.

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>

>

>the part that you're missing in that equation is where you're getting the

>hay. in our case, we have hay fields and currently a dairyman up the street

>cuts and bales our hay, and in exchange he takes half of it. however,

>cutting and baling takes quite a bit of energy. if we didn't use a tractor,

>and used horse-equipment instead, then we'd store it loose, which we

>actually have facilities to do but of course that takes much more manpower.

>

>anyway, that's where the oil comes from for cows.

Ah. Yeah, the farmers I know buy the hay, it just gets delivered.

How often does the hay need to be cut? Seems around here it's

just once or maybe twice a year, and I suspect people just rent

a person or a baler to do it (which is kind of what you are doing).

It's more efficient for several people to share ONE baler than

for each farmer to buy one ... in any case, THAT is one area

I can't see doing it by horse. By the time you feed the horse

for a year so they can bale the hay once a year, I'm not sure

it's really an energy savings.

And yeah, I'm a not-farmer, but I think I like the way they

do things in Asia (and used to do it in the US) -- using oxen

rather than horses. Or riding-longhorns. Horses are harder

to keep and more skittish. And with a riding longhorn, you

get the meat too ...

-- Heidi

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Now, you're thinking like a farmer, Heidi ! Horses eat a lot and require

better quality hay and feed than cows. Tractors are expensive. My Dad and a

neighbor did custom farming for a while when I was young. Between the two of

them and their equipment people that hired them got the hay cut, raked and

baled.

Got Frontier House, the PBS back to 1883 reality show from Netflix this

week. The animal handler that set them up I thought made a big mistake not

including pigs. Trying to dig gardens in that Montana soil with horses and a

plow was a joke, nevermind feeding them after the wagon pull out. One couple

got pigs but never used them to dig their garden. In the East a huge amount

of land for crops and pasture was made by pigs.

>By the time you feed the horse

> for a year so they can bale the hay once a year, I'm not sure

> it's really an energy savings.

Wanita

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>Got Frontier House, the PBS back to 1883 reality show from Netflix this

>week. The animal handler that set them up I thought made a big mistake not

>including pigs. Trying to dig gardens in that Montana soil with horses and a

>plow was a joke, nevermind feeding them after the wagon pull out. One couple

>got pigs but never used them to dig their garden. In the East a huge amount

>of land for crops and pasture was made by pigs.

>

> Wanita

Heh heh. Chickens do a pretty good job too ... just put them in a big pen on top

of the land you want dug up, move the pen and plant. I'd guess pigs can

dig deeper but I'm not quite up to pigdom yet. They sure rototilled our

garden nicely though.

Yeah, I loved that series but those folks did WAY too much work. They also

didn't allow hunting ... your average pioneer would bag at least a

few rabbits, I'd think.

-- Heidi

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> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " katja " <katja@...>

> > if you had the option, would you pay more for meat

> > that was not only pastured and grassfed, but which required only the

> > minimum oil to produce? (since our labor would certainly be higher in

> that

> > case)...

>

> I'm sure there's a niche for it, but I, like most people, buy food, not

> an ideology.

>

>

There are people who will pay a premium for healthier meat. Now if the

politicians would just stop using our tax dollars to subsidize the factory

meat production the pastured meat would be competitive. If we all ate

healthier food we wouldn't have to spend so much on crime or schools where

kids can't learn. Don't hold your breath!

Peace,

Kris , gardening in harmony with nature in northwest Ohio

http://home.woh.rr.com/billkrisjohnson/

On the Fallacy of our Cheap Food policies:

http://home.woh.rr.com/billkrisjohnson/Kris/Justice.htm

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----- Original Message -----

From: " Kris " <Kris.@...>

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: " katja " <katja@...>

> > > if you had the option, would you pay more for meat

> > > that was not only pastured and grassfed, but which required only

the

> > > minimum oil to produce? (since our labor would certainly be higher

in

> > that

> > > case)...

> >

> > I'm sure there's a niche for it, but I, like most people, buy food,

not

> > an ideology.

>

> There are people who will pay a premium for healthier meat.

So would I, but we're not talking about more healthful meat. The

emphasis above is on the " minimum oil " part, not the " pastured and

grassfed " part.

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At 12:32 AM 1/31/2004, you wrote:

> > There are people who will pay a premium for healthier meat.

>

>So would I, but we're not talking about more healthful meat. The

>emphasis above is on the " minimum oil " part, not the " pastured and

>grassfed " part.

no, the emphasis is on both. the minimum oil part is just a part of

it...just to be clear!

-katja

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----- Original Message -----

From: " katja " <katja@...>

> At 12:32 AM 1/31/2004, you wrote:

> > > There are people who will pay a premium for healthier meat.

> >

> >So would I, but we're not talking about more healthful meat. The

> >emphasis above is on the " minimum oil " part, not the " pastured and

> >grassfed " part.

>

> no, the emphasis is on both. the minimum oil part is just a part of

> it...just to be clear!

That doesn't really make any sense, since it's pretty much a given that

most people here would be willing to pay a premium for grass-fed meat,

but I guess that you're the expert on what you mean.

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>

> >

> > no, the emphasis is on both. the minimum oil part is just a part of

> > it...just to be clear!

>

>That doesn't really make any sense, since it's pretty much a given that

>most people here would be willing to pay a premium for grass-fed meat,

>but I guess that you're the expert on what you mean.

all i was trying to get at was whether there were people who thought that

healthy meat that also was produced in an earth-conscious way would be

worth something. ok, you don't. that's cool. just, arg.

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