Guest guest Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 , <<Sure, but like I said, I don't think any hydrogenation process yields anything close to 100% saturated output.>> I'm pretty sure this isn't true, but I'll try to find out. <<Actually, it's pretty clear that while the body will utilize undesired trans fats, we don't WANT the body to, so I don't see why you'd say this isn't an issue,>> It's the only issue that's relevant, if magnesium stearate can't be used by the body. IF that's the issue with magnesium stearate, it clearly has nothing to do with hydrogenation, since hydrogenation doesn't reduce or eliminate the usability of an oil. >except for your newfound faith that hydrogenation is A-OK. Not only did I not ever say hydrogenation is " A-OK " but anything I have said has nothing to do with faith and entirely to do with scientific reasoning based on available evidence. <<Trans fats from hydrogenated oils are incorporated into cell membranes, which fail to function properly as a result of the incorrect (or abnormal -- take your pick of adjectives) charge and geometry properties.>> Can you supply any evidence of this? I've asked several times on this list and the chapter leaders list for someone to offer evidence of the mechanism by which trans fats are supposed to cause malfunction, and no one has ever offered any. Sally has said what you say above before, but she's on the chapter leaders list, and sometimes forwards comments from Enig on the list, and she didn't respond to the query. Also, I looked through literally dozens of full-text articles from AJCN and forwarded a dozen or so to the list, and didn't come across any that discussed this, even though most had a negative view of trans fats. Furthermore, this makes little sense to me. The body can easily manipulate the permeability of a cell membrane by the inclusion or exclusion of different amounts of cholesterol. Furthermore, trans fats are essentially equivalent to saturated fats in geometry and have, to my knowledge, no difference in " charge. " Also, membrane potential is regulated by electrolyte balance, which is controlled by *proteins*, not fats. So, at the level of detail at which you are explaining it, your explanation doesn't make sense to me. If you understand this in more detail, I'd very much appreciate you explaining it or at least pointing me to a source, preferably on the net, that can explain it. <<<At most I suppose you could argue that the real problem is that in nature, in good foods, we'd only get very tiny amounts of trans fats, whereas with PHO we're flooding the body with them and thus putting much too much trans fat into our cell membranes, but I expect those membranes function best with particular trans fats found in nature, and those found in PHO don't have the same structures and properties.>>> The trans fats in PHO *ARE* found in nature, just in very tiny quantities. I had previously thought that CLA and trans-veccenic acid were the only trans fats found in nature, but I checked back in _Know Your Fats_ recently and realized that the trans fats dominant in PHO are indeed found in nature, just in even smaller quantities. However, again, since all fats are non-polar and since the gemoetry of a fat in a cell membrane, to my knowledge, functions simply to regulate flexibility, trans fats would thus be equivalent to saturated fats, I really don't see why it would matter. <<<As to EFA deficiency, I don't think it tracks. People who schew oils and fats have comparable ranges of EFA deficiencies to people who replace them ith PHO, but the PHO people are much worse off.>>> The first criticism of trans fats came out in the 50s correlating trans fat intake to EFA deficiency, and current research has found the same correlation. <<<Also, I think Enig can be trusted to control for issues like that.>>> She can't be trusted to control for anything she hasn't stated she's controlled for, like any other researcher. Research on trans fats is abundant, beyond the small amount Enig has directly contributed. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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