Re: Composting vs Anything Into Oil

[Guest guest]

>Of course, add to that the fact that we should be using something like

>biointensive, biodynamic agriculture, which actually builds soil and soil

>fertility, and recycling and composting everything we can, and the picture

>would improve a lot, but that's besides my main point, which is that it

>would seem to me like detoxifying human waste isn't an insurmountable

>problem. I haven't looked into the humanure crowd's literature, but my

>understanding is that they address the issue.

I think that for one family, humanure is a good idea (if you

can talk people into it ...). For a city though? People dump

all kinds of stuff down the drain, and in LA, the sewage system

also gets whatever is on the streets (dripped car oil, for starters).

LA sewage should NOT go in the ocean! which a lot of it does.

Now, if they put it in big tanks, let it ferment, take the methane,

and put the sludge through AIO, then the toxic stuff is OUT

and you get carbon (bury it!) and oil.

In India they are using more manure in agriculture, after it is

composted. They are doing that some around here with

cattle waste too (after they outlawed dumping it into streams).

I don't think the two ideas are incompatible. We have so

much " toxic " garbage I don't think that lack of garbage

will be a problem. Currently a lot of the reusable, compostable

garbage, such as rice straw, is simply being BURNED to get

rid of it. Folks around here to a lot of burning to get rid

of garbage too. At our house we currently have 4 different

garbage systems ... you don't have to have just one!

>>And any organics that people

>>are " afraid " to compost (you can compost a BSE cow, but

>>people won't want to, I think).

>

>So burn it and put the ash into the compost. It's still better than

>essentially destroying it in its entirety.

But turning into oil IS a kind of burning, isn't it? Except without

the pollution. You get methane as a byproduct (for fuel), reclaim

the metals, extract extra carbon, AND you get oil to run the

tractor. The " ash " is basically the mineral content, and the AIO

still reclaims the minerals ... just gets rid of funny-looking organics,

which are just carbon-nitrogen-hydrogen-oxygen chains, more

or less ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>For a city though? People dump

>all kinds of stuff down the drain, and in LA, the sewage system

>also gets whatever is on the streets (dripped car oil, for starters).

Well, true, I have no idea how to address the problem of cities, since they

have a massive preexisting sewage infrastructure which mixes potential

compost with toxic trash. Perhaps the main hope is future development and

decentralization due to modern communications (and future fuel shortages).

>Now, if they put it in big tanks, let it ferment, take the methane,

>and put the sludge through AIO, then the toxic stuff is OUT

>and you get carbon (bury it!) and oil.

A good idea right there for city waste, but there've got to be a number of

ways to recover far more biomass from even the most toxic of waste in a

cost-effective manner.

>But turning into oil IS a kind of burning, isn't it? Except without

>the pollution.

True, my off-the-cuff retort wasn't the best of ideas, but my basic point,

that there are safe ways of transforming potentially dangerous biological

waste (like carcasses of sick cows) into compost, stands. I'd much rather

plow the cow back into the soil than turn it into oil.

Look, I'm not saying AIO isn't a good thing. It can recover lots of

different kinds of waste in useful ways. But we shouldn't make it the

foundation of our recycling policy, or pretty soon we'll transform the very

dirt under our feet into oil -- and while I know that sounds paranoid, just

think of how much soil would be literally burned off over the course of a

century.

-

[Guest guest]

>Look, I'm not saying AIO isn't a good thing. It can recover lots of

>different kinds of waste in useful ways. But we shouldn't make it the

>foundation of our recycling policy, or pretty soon we'll transform the very

>dirt under our feet into oil -- and while I know that sounds paranoid, just

>think of how much soil would be literally burned off over the course of a

>century.

>

>-

That is a point. Our whole society needs to be changed ... for starters,

keeping kids with their MOM drinking breast milk.

Dirt has another set of issues ... around here a lot of the good farming land

is being paved over, for starters. It's not that hard to build topsoil, if

you work at it, which no one much is. But in this area, anyway, getting rid

of garbage is a big issue, and it is really poorly handled.

Our garbage goes to worms, dog, chickens, mostly. The rest goes

to the dump. The " dump " part could be easily turned into oil and probably

there is enough to run our car (we don't drive much). If we had solar cells

on the roof we could probably do most of our electricity. Our water comes

from a well, our sewage goes to a tank. So really, we COULD

be come a zero-sum household, or close to it, in theory.

I don't think turning waste into oil gets " rid " of anything. This really IS

a closed system. Organics change form, but they don't disappear, conservation

of matter isn't a law we can circumvent. But as a system, we aren't " running

out'

of anything, really -- there is the same amount of everything as there ever was,

and energy arrives daily from the Sun. Sun+plants+water generates an amazing

amount of biomass very quickly, as I am reminded every time I go to weed ...

The Question for humans is: what kind of life do we want to lead? And if we

figure that out, how do we get there from here? We are fortunate in that

for the first time in history, we really have the choice.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

<<That is a point. Our whole society needs to be changed ... for starters,

keeping kids with their MOM drinking breast milk. >>

--- You've got my vote there Heidi... next step would be to teach them NOT to

deposit anything down the toilet that hasn't been through their mouths [and

digestive tract] first... this could pave the way for wider use of composting

toilets and make them viable even for apartment blocks....

<< If we had solar cells on the roof we could probably do most of our

electricity.>>

--- If your roof had photovoltaic tiles for cover you'd be in a position to

'export' electricity to the national grid

<<our sewage goes to a tank.>>

--- Have you looked into creating reed-beds for recycling all you waste water?

Dedy

[Guest guest]

>--- You've got my vote there Heidi... next step would be to teach them NOT to

deposit anything down the toilet that hasn't been through their mouths [and

digestive tract] first... this could pave the way for wider use of composting

toilets and make them viable even for apartment blocks....

Seems like it should be doable.

><< If we had solar cells on the roof we could probably do most of our

electricity.>>

>

>--- If your roof had photovoltaic tiles for cover you'd be in a position to

'export' electricity to the national grid

Now THAT technology I just think is a wonderful idea. Houses could do a big

chunk of

the electrical generation. I wonder how far that 100 billion we spent on war

would have gone toward photovoltaic tiles? (Would've helped the unemployment

problem too ...)

><<our sewage goes to a tank.>>

>

>--- Have you looked into creating reed-beds for recycling all you waste water?

Well, actually I kind of think a septic tank DOES recycle the water ... the

water

perks out back into the ground. The solids don't, I guess, but they ARE

sitting there composting, and they don't get cleaned out but once in

maybe 10 years. Judging from how green the grass is, I'm guessing a lot

of the nutrients get back into the soil (which in this area, can use them).

However, I haven't actually looked into the ecological friendliness of

septic systems ... this one came with the house.