Re: Detox and Immune Suppression

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/2/04 5:07:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> this concept fascinates me and i've not yet decided what to believe. anyone

> else have an opinon on this?

Yes-- it's bogus. If that were true, why can we replicate diseases by

injecting said viruses or their toxins into an animal? Moreover, why can we

isolate

the *toxins* developed by these organisms and cause disease/physiological

malfunction?

Sure, being in a bad state of health and having bad tissue will attract

organisms to eat that crappy tissue-- say, as in tooth decay-- but these

organisms

are well established as harmful and capable of reaping havoc on the body--

hardly the body's " tool. "

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/2/04 8:42:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,

karenr@... writes:

> I don't think he can prove this, but Aajonus says the toxins produced

> by infections are easily eliminated and not damaging when the proper

> amount of raw fat is in the diet. Not sure how long it would take to

> get to that status since most of us haven't been eating the fats we

> require until relatively recently.

But is there any reason at all to believe what he says has any grounding in

reality?

Chris

[Guest guest]

At 05:07 PM 2/2/04 -0500, you wrote:

> >

>>There's a school of thought that colds and viruses aren't a matter of

>> " " , but that the toxic condition requires the use of

>>viruses to aid in the detox process. Jim West who has written an

>>article on

>>SARS on the WAPF site, is a major proponent of this theory. Aajonus

>>Vonderplanitz similarly says that viruses have solvent-like properties and

>>aid in the detox process.

>

> this concept fascinates me and i've not yet decided what to believe. anyone

> else have an opinon on this?

No opinion of my own, but I'm very interested in that of others - having

picked up two " bugs " in the last six weeks, the first in three years.

>so, you believe that colds/viruses are a result of a " healthier " body

>detoxing?

If it truly is somewhat attributable to a detox process, that makes sense

for my own recent experience (and a bit of a relief). I thought the

whole thing was odd anyway, a detox connection would put a whole new light

on it, if true. I mean, REALLY ... eat crap and do all sorts of other

unhealthy things for 2-1/2 years, " see the light " and make appropriate

changes over six months and THEN start getting sick all the time? Ick.

Yuck. Say it ain't so, Joe.

MFJ

Some days the bear will eat you, some days you'll eat the bear. ~Joan

Armatrading

[Guest guest]

>

>If it truly is somewhat attributable to a detox process, that makes sense

>for my own recent experience (and a bit of a relief). I thought the

>whole thing was odd anyway, a detox connection would put a whole new light

>on it, if true. I mean, REALLY ... eat crap and do all sorts of other

>unhealthy things for 2-1/2 years, " see the light " and make appropriate

>changes over six months and THEN start getting sick all the time? Ick.

>Yuck. Say it ain't so, Joe.

>MFJ

mfj - what is your name? or do you prefer " mfj? " ?

in the past six months since you've improved your diet, have you added

anything that you weren't eating before, such as dairy? or increased your

consumption of anything?

>Some days the bear will eat you, some days you'll eat the bear. ~Joan

>Armatrading

what a blast from the past - i used to love joan armatrading :-)

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Suze,

> so, you believe that colds/viruses are a result of a " healthier "

>body detoxing?

It's a tenet of homeopathic philosophy that if the body has a crisis

to deal with, it will defer dealing with more chronic issues. I've

noticed this in my own experience, when I'd be in some crisis and

suddenly not getting my usual migraines during that time. The body

seems to prioritize things, and there may be times when it sees fit

not to appropriate the resources to deal with ongoing toxic

exposures.

Maybe with a lot of us being in chronic states of adrenal stress, the

body is more or less in fight-or-flight and not interested in doing

its regular housecleaning.

Aajonus Vonderplanitz says that viruses are solvents produced when

dying/decaying tissue is too toxic for bacteria or parasites to

consume them. Viruses dilute the waste and spread them out throughout

the bloodstream. That's why viral detoxification is usually more

debilitating and produces more uncomfortable symptoms.

He says that people generally lack the nutrients necessary to

regularly enter into major detoxification like colds and flu.

Especially in toxic environments, bodies need major detox regularly.

I've got more notes on the toxic model of infectious disease, next

installment :-)

-

[Guest guest]

At 06:02 PM 2/2/04 -0500, you wrote:

>mfj - what is your name? or do you prefer " mfj? " ?

Ah, sorry, been meaning to do something about that. My name would be

Jewett, I'm just so used to using my initial in sigs and sech that I forget

that it might confuse people that don't already know me. I answer to

, Felicia, Yard Chick, Butch Girl, Paint Girl, Hey Goombah, Cooking

Lady, and occasionally You Over There.

>

>in the past six months since you've improved your diet, have you added

>anything that you weren't eating before, such as dairy? or increased your

>consumption of anything?

Let's see. I guess you can say I switched over from SAD - SAD including

quite a good bit of alcohol and nicotine (major failing - Sam Cherry

Wheat!). It started with the hypothyroid thing - I started eating a bit

more meat, fish, eggs, cheese, salads ... was really pissed off about all

my favorite veggies being " off-limits " , namely brassicas. I also made a

serious effort to get my food from better sources - got lots of grass-fed

meats, etc., and did a de-cluttering in my refrigideezer and pantry,

removing anything remotely resembling a processed food and substituting

better stuff (i.e. let's toss the Van de Kamps fish fillets and make a nice

variety of dumplings with shrimp and my own-grown veggies and grass-fed

meats - and use those as " fast food " instead). Got seriously into

sprouting at that point too, for vegetable intake. At that point, I also

started avoiding the usual things that people should avoid -

processed/refined grains, bread, pasta, etc.

About two months ago, started working with a naturopath, who pretty much

told me that diet-wise, I was already going down the right path, just do a

little more of this, a little less of that. He added a whole bunch of

supplements based on some blood work - I think I'm taking everything under

the sun right now, but most of it has to do with some " temporary " things

that the blood work pinpointed - like liver/gallbladder stress, toxin load,

and things of that nature. I'm really looking forward to getting that

whole detox/stress thing under control, would be nice to not have to pop 35

capsules a day, not to mention the iodine and CLO.

It was actually kinda funny ... after the bloodwork came back, and he added

all sorts of detox's and antioxidants and sech ... oh, trust me, I KNEW it

was working. Broke out like crazy, all sorts of other things going on

.... man, that stuff was gonna get out of me any way it COULD! Was

amusing for a while - 40 and Zitted!

But, so, yeah, that's why I perked up at a detox/immune connection. So

far none of my experience nor any of the tests done indicate any sort of

major immune system malfunction on my part ... but yep, was pissed at that

cold and the one flu I got.

>>Some days the bear will eat you, some days you'll eat the bear. ~Joan

>>Armatrading

>

>what a blast from the past - i used to love joan armatrading :-)

Whaddaya mean USED to, Little Missy?

MFJ

Some days the bear will eat you, some days you'll eat the bear. ~Joan

Armatrading

[Guest guest]

Suze -

I forgot to note that I started eating *all* raw dairy just before

Christmas. Had already switched to raw milk cheese, but just prior to

Christmas is when I got the source for raw milk and pastured poultry/eggs,

etc. I went absolutely nuts drinking the raw milk at first (remember

that constipation topic? LOL), I've since cut back a bit on the

consumption, but what I DO drink is all raw. So I'd say that I've

increased the milk consumption, but the rest is pretty much just a case of

getting better stuff than what I was before (i.e. pastured v. Perdue).

MFJ

Some days the bear will eat you, some days you'll eat the bear. ~Joan

Armatrading

[Guest guest]

When I ate junk I was sick ALL THE TIME. I have to emphasize this. After I

switched to a healthier diet, I didn't get sick at all, until I went back to

eating some less than ideal foods, so I guess I'm backwards according to the

detox theory. I did get a few bumps the first week, and lost a lot of

weight, but that was a positive!

take care,

Michele

>From: " F. Jewett " <mfjewett@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: Detox and Immune Suppression

>Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 17:36:58 -0500

>

>At 05:07 PM 2/2/04 -0500, you wrote:

> > >

> >>There's a school of thought that colds and viruses aren't a matter of

> >> " " , but that the toxic condition requires the use of

> >>viruses to aid in the detox process. Jim West who has written an

> >>article on

> >>SARS on the WAPF site, is a major proponent of this theory. Aajonus

> >>Vonderplanitz similarly says that viruses have solvent-like properties

>and

> >>aid in the detox process.

> >

> > this concept fascinates me and i've not yet decided what to believe.

>anyone

> > else have an opinon on this?

>

>No opinion of my own, but I'm very interested in that of others - having

>picked up two " bugs " in the last six weeks, the first in three years.

>

> >so, you believe that colds/viruses are a result of a " healthier " body

> >detoxing?

>

>If it truly is somewhat attributable to a detox process, that makes sense

>for my own recent experience (and a bit of a relief). I thought the

>whole thing was odd anyway, a detox connection would put a whole new light

>on it, if true. I mean, REALLY ... eat crap and do all sorts of other

>unhealthy things for 2-1/2 years, " see the light " and make appropriate

>changes over six months and THEN start getting sick all the time? Ick.

>Yuck. Say it ain't so, Joe.

>

>

>

>

>MFJ

>Some days the bear will eat you, some days you'll eat the bear. ~Joan

>Armatrading

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[Guest guest]

Suze-

>this concept fascinates me and i've not yet decided what to believe. anyone

>else have an opinon on this?

It's an interesting theory, but though specific research into it hasn't

really been done, it has several serious show-stopping

problems. Infections further weaken previously-healthy tissues and organs,

particularly when the infectious organism produces toxins designed

specifically to harm its host. (Anthrax is a good example.) If you think

of this as a Hegelian dialectic, the simplistic original theory of disease

is the synthesis, the simplistic all-organisms-are-beneficial theory is the

antithesis, and a melding of the best parts of each is (or more properly

will be) the synthesis. Obviously the health and quality of the " terrain "

as it's often called is very important. A healthy person is going to

resist an awful lot more than an unhealthy person, so the idea that

exposure is the only real factor in transmission is absurd. But even

though there are obviously many different beneficial organisms (an idea

which is only just beginning to make real headway in medical circles)

various organisms are infectious, resilient and harmful to different

degrees; the idea that they're all our happy little helpers is just as

ludicrous as its opposite.

-

[Guest guest]

So then here's another theory, tell me if it's completely ludicrous or not ...

.... in my specific example, is it possible that any additional stress

caused by the detox process increased my susceptibility at the time to

other cooties?

( " cooties " being another wonderful word)

At 07:25 PM 2/2/04 -0500, you wrote:

>It's an interesting theory, but though specific research into it hasn't

>really been done, it has several serious show-stopping

>problems. Infections further weaken previously-healthy tissues and organs,

>particularly when the infectious organism produces toxins designed

>specifically to harm its host. (Anthrax is a good example.) If you think

>of this as a Hegelian dialectic, the simplistic original theory of disease

>is the synthesis, the simplistic all-organisms-are-beneficial theory is the

>antithesis, and a melding of the best parts of each is (or more properly

>will be) the synthesis. Obviously the health and quality of the " terrain "

>as it's often called is very important. A healthy person is going to

>resist an awful lot more than an unhealthy person, so the idea that

>exposure is the only real factor in transmission is absurd. But even

>though there are obviously many different beneficial organisms (an idea

>which is only just beginning to make real headway in medical circles)

>various organisms are infectious, resilient and harmful to different

>degrees; the idea that they're all our happy little helpers is just as

>ludicrous as its opposite.

>

>

MFJ

Some days the bear will eat you, some days you'll eat the bear. ~Joan

Armatrading

[Guest guest]

-

>... in my specific example, is it possible that any additional stress

>caused by the detox process increased my susceptibility at the time to

>other cooties?

Sure... theoretically. A lot of toxins get stored away in the body, and it

can be risky to mobilize them, even if the ultimate result is their

elimination.

-

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

>>Infections further weaken previously-healthy tissues and organs,

particularly when the infectious organism produces toxins designed

specifically to harm its host. (Anthrax is a good example.)

I don't think he can prove this, but Aajonus says the toxins produced

by infections are easily eliminated and not damaging when the proper

amount of raw fat is in the diet. Not sure how long it would take to

get to that status since most of us haven't been eating the fats we

require until relatively recently.

-

[Guest guest]

@@@@@@@@@@@

I don't think he can prove this, but Aajonus says the toxins produced

> by infections are easily eliminated and not damaging when the

proper

> amount of raw fat is in the diet. Not sure how long it would take

to

> get to that status since most of us haven't been eating the fats we

> require until relatively recently.

>

> -

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

ah, the good 'ol " Aajonus says... " !

gotta love it!!!

ROFL!!

(this is not meant as an insult to you ; it just cracks me up

everytime I see this phrase... my translation is " In one of Aajonus'

daydreams the thought arose... " )

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

[Guest guest]

(i.e. let's toss the Van de Kamps fish fillets and make a nice

> variety of dumplings with shrimp and my own-grown veggies and grass-

fed

> meats - and use those as " fast food " instead).

Oooh! This caught my eye. One of the problems I have is that I just

get the munchies and don't want to spend the time preparing

something. I just have to munch right away. Some of the things I

currently munch on are crispy nuts or cheese with butter, but I would

love to find something a little more meat focused. I'm doing a low

carb diet and cheese and nuts both have carbs so if I could make

something up ahead of time to snack on with less carbs, I'd be happy.

Would you be willing to point me towards some recipes. Dumplings are

just not something my family ever made so I'm not very familiar with

them.

Ghislaine

[Guest guest]

<<<<Would you be willing to point me towards some recipes. Dumplings are

just not something my family ever made so I'm not very familiar with

them.

Ghislaine >>>>

WHen I was cutting back on the carbs, I used to take leftover cooked

chicken, or some lunch meat, and wrap it up in a piece of lettuce.

Sometimes I put mustard or mayo inside, but plain was just fine too.

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Well, I'm not sure that the wrapper (essentially pasta) is terribly apropos

for a purist, but I never claimed to be one.

I've collected a few different recipes from here and there over the years

and tend to stick with just a few favorites. I'll send you some off-list

in the next couple of days (as soon as I get a block of time to type 'em

out). Else you could simply rifle through any decent Asian cookbook.

Or try foodtv.com, there are probably a bunch of them there too. I tend

to be partial to Shui Mai (sp?) and a ginger-chicken one I grabbed out of

the Washington Post a few years ago.

Another thing I did was make a whole bunch of mini-crustless quiches,

different flavors, using raw milk cheese and sech - I had some of those

really weenie little muffin pans from when I catered a friend's wedding lo

those many years ago - baked 'em up and popped them in the freezer, look!

More " fast food " !. I'm sure it would work just as well using a

regular-size muffin pan, too, I just like the little ones 'cause they're cute.

That's about as far as I've gotten in my " snack " freezer stocking -

although I plan to do some mini-eggrolls or something too, as soon as I get

time. Basically I just looked at the insta-food I had in the freezer,

tossed the gross stuff and replaced it with better versions. Again,

some of it isn't exactly purist, but it's still better than what I had

before.

At 04:12 PM 2/3/04 -0000, you wrote:

>(i.e. let's toss the Van de Kamps fish fillets and make a nice

>> variety of dumplings with shrimp and my own-grown veggies and grass-

>fed

>> meats - and use those as " fast food " instead).

>

>Oooh! This caught my eye. One of the problems I have is that I just

>get the munchies and don't want to spend the time preparing

>something. I just have to munch right away. Some of the things I

>currently munch on are crispy nuts or cheese with butter, but I would

>love to find something a little more meat focused. I'm doing a low

>carb diet and cheese and nuts both have carbs so if I could make

>something up ahead of time to snack on with less carbs, I'd be happy.

>

>Would you be willing to point me towards some recipes. Dumplings are

>just not something my family ever made so I'm not very familiar with

>them.

>

>Ghislaine

MFJ

Some days the bear will eat you, some days you'll eat the bear. ~Joan

Armatrading

[Guest guest]

At 09:18 AM 2/3/04 -0700, you wrote:

><<<<Would you be willing to point me towards some recipes. Dumplings are

>just not something my family ever made so I'm not very familiar with

>them.

>

>Ghislaine >>>>

>

>

>WHen I was cutting back on the carbs, I used to take leftover cooked

>chicken, or some lunch meat, and wrap it up in a piece of lettuce.

>Sometimes I put mustard or mayo inside, but plain was just fine too.

>

>

I've done similar things - was always a big fan of Italian-type subs.

Now I just take the meat and cheese and onions and roll it up and eat it

that way, instead of in the bun. Did that last night, as a matter of

fact.

One thing I can pretty much guarantee I will blow as far as pasta etc. goes

is pierogi. I just refuse to give that up. I'm the only person in my

family that still makes it, and well ... I suppose I should probably avoid

making a bunch of the potato ones, but .... mmmmmmm .... cabbage and bacon.

Mmmmmmmmm. Eeesh, now I'm making myself hungry again!

MFJ

Some days the bear will eat you, some days you'll eat the bear. ~Joan

Armatrading

[Guest guest]

> Well, I'm not sure that the wrapper (essentially pasta) is terribly

apropos

> for a purist, but I never claimed to be one.

Ahhh, okay. I was assuming you were making them without a wrapper.

Sort of like a quenelle which is something else on my " try to make

someday " list. I do have a recipe for sausage cheese bites that are

low carb. I found them to be a bit messy due mainly to grease from

the cheese. I'd love to see your recipes though I'd have to think

hard about the wrappers. From a purely low-carb point of view I

could use tofu skin, but the soy makes me nervous from an NT

standpoint. Sometimes it's really hard to merge the two and still

feel satisfied.

[Guest guest]

>>ah, the good 'ol " Aajonus says... " !

gotta love it!!!

ROFL!!

(this is not meant as an insult to you ; it just cracks me up

everytime I see this phrase... my translation is " In one of Aajonus'

daydreams the thought arose... " )

Hehe. yeah, it seems that " Aajonus says " more times than anyone else

" says " , for some odd reason.

I think his " sayings " are worthy of consideration, as some of them have

worked for me. Not to swallow them whole or bolt them like raw meat ;-)

-

[Guest guest]

At 05:12 PM 2/3/04 -0000, you wrote:

>Ahhh, okay. I was assuming you were making them without a wrapper.

>Sort of like a quenelle which is something else on my " try to make

>someday " list. I do have a recipe for sausage cheese bites that are

>low carb. I found them to be a bit messy due mainly to grease from

>the cheese. I'd love to see your recipes though I'd have to think

>hard about the wrappers. From a purely low-carb point of view I

>could use tofu skin, but the soy makes me nervous from an NT

>standpoint. Sometimes it's really hard to merge the two and still

>feel satisfied.

Actually, now that I think about it (thanks for spurring that little

lightbulb), I'm sure you (and therefore also I) could just make little

meatball-y things out of the filling and just steam or pan-fry those, sans

wrapper. Good idea!

(Won't work for the pierogi though - lol)

MFJ

Some days the bear will eat you, some days you'll eat the bear. ~Joan

Armatrading

[Guest guest]

Since we were discussing fast food.....one thing I have made in the past

which was VERY convenient for breakfasts......was to take eggs, sausage,

cheese, onions, and anything else you find yummy........poured the mixture

in a greased muffin tin, and cooked up little egg muffins. I heated them up

real quick in the morning....tossed on a bit of salsa....mmmm...they were

good! I found the recipe on a low carb site, but don't remember which one.

E

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[Guest guest]

use the fourth stomach of a cow, very tender and thin, yet won't fall

apart like pasta wrappers.

also easily obtained for free.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

> > Well, I'm not sure that the wrapper (essentially pasta) is

terribly

> apropos

> > for a purist, but I never claimed to be one.

>

>

> Ahhh, okay. I was assuming you were making them without a

wrapper.

> Sort of like a quenelle which is something else on my " try to make

> someday " list. I do have a recipe for sausage cheese bites that

are

> low carb. I found them to be a bit messy due mainly to grease from

> the cheese. I'd love to see your recipes though I'd have to think

> hard about the wrappers. From a purely low-carb point of view I

> could use tofu skin, but the soy makes me nervous from an NT

> standpoint. Sometimes it's really hard to merge the two and still

> feel satisfied.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/3/04 8:38:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> can you expand on that a little? i'm not sure how that counters the concept

> as karen explained it. as i understand her explanation, the healthier you

> are the better able you are to deal with viruses/toxins. and the way the

> body deals with these is fever, etc.

I fully agree with that, but so does pretty much everyone on the planet,

except the people who oppose the germ theory of disease, among whom is counted

Aajounus, by the way you've described his theory to me.

so if someone is getting healthier and

> they are getting fevers more often, it may be that their body is more

> efficiently responding to the invading virus/toxins.

I doubt that, but perhaps.

> that doesn't seem to indicate that replicating viruses and causing illness

> by injecting them is not possible or even probable.

No, it doesn't. But *that* in turn, has nothing to do with the theory that

infections are not actually infections, but mechanisms of the body to deal with

poor tissues.

> aajonus stating ( " aajonus says! " ) something to the effect that parasites

> make us healthier by cleaning out diseased tissue. perhaps it's " dose

> dependent " ? keep in mind that some " parasites " are now being used to treat

> IBD - not because they consume diseased tissue, but rather that they

> stimulate the immune system, and the body repairs itself. either way, the

> role of " parasites " is not as clear as it once was.

Sure, but that isn't the theory that oppose the germ theory of disease. If

Aajounus doesn't oppose the germ theory, then fine, his position might be

reasonable. But if his position is that infectious are not causes of disease

and

do not cause harm, but only fulfill good functions, he is out of his mind.

Chris

[Guest guest]

At 10:46 AM 2/3/04 -0700, you wrote:

>Since we were discussing fast food.....one thing I have made in the past

>which was VERY convenient for breakfasts......was to take eggs, sausage,

>cheese, onions, and anything else you find yummy........poured the mixture

>in a greased muffin tin, and cooked up little egg muffins. I heated them up

>real quick in the morning....tossed on a bit of salsa....mmmm...they were

>good! I found the recipe on a low carb site, but don't remember which one.

Yep, that's pretty much what I did with those little mini-quiches.

Although I'll admit I haven't really eaten many of them since I'm back on

an omelette kick LOL ... get enough eggs that way. Salsa on top. Huh.

I used to make a lot of salsa for Ex-Boy (probably 75% of all garden

space was devoted to those ingredients to keep up with his consumption!),

but stopped. I think I'll put that on the list of things to do again

this year, even if it DOES make my sissy laugh at me for planting

tomatillos again.

You get used to doing certain things, for reasons that made sense at the

time (or even sometimes for no real reason at all) ... then something pops

up to make you think about it again, and realize that the old reasons no

longer exist, so gee, maybe you oughtta expand your horizons a bit more

again. Just a month or so here has given me all sorts of new ideas ...

:)

(see? stellar company!)

MFJ

Some days the bear will eat you, some days you'll eat the bear. ~Joan

Armatrading

[Guest guest]

At 08:12 AM 2/3/2004, you wrote:

>This caught my eye. One of the problems I have is that I just

>get the munchies and don't want to spend the time preparing

>something. I just have to munch right away.

You might try making Jerky (recipe in the Files section).

Great travel snack!

-- Heidi