Re: Detox and Immune Suppression

February 3, 2004

>Well, I'm not sure that the wrapper (essentially pasta) is terribly apropos

>for a purist, but I never claimed to be one.

The Koreans make little " sandwiches " wrapped in lettuce.

Take meat or whatever and some kimchi, wrap in a piece

of lettuce.

I also make dumplings wrapped in steamed cabbage leaves.

You can use fermented cabbage leaves (or grape leaves)

and they are even better.

-- Heidi

February 3, 2004

At 02:56 PM 2/3/04 -0800, you wrote:

>>Well, I'm not sure that the wrapper (essentially pasta) is terribly apropos

>>for a purist, but I never claimed to be one.

>

>The Koreans make little " sandwiches " wrapped in lettuce.

>Take meat or whatever and some kimchi, wrap in a piece

>of lettuce.

>I also make dumplings wrapped in steamed cabbage leaves.

>You can use fermented cabbage leaves (or grape leaves)

>and they are even better.

Right. Flipping through NT right after I got it, I happened upon dolmas,

and now have a far different opinion of my neighbor's grapevines (the ones

that climb all over the place and try to strangle my lilacs and berries).

I was leering at it the other day, saying 'grow, grow!' *snort*

I'll look at doing something soon with cabbage leaves too, that's a good

idea that I hadn't managed to actually come up with on my own LOL (although

with the hypothyroid I need to be careful of that/brassicas - but as I

understand it, recent info suggests that it may be okay for me if it's

cooked). And I'd already stolen someone's idea/comment about making

tacos with lettuce leaves as the " holder " , rather than a shell or tortilla.

(Actually, I might have stolen that idea from you, Heidi.) So tacos

are on my " possible menus " list - hey, I'm only one person, I can only eat

SO much!

*goes back to staring at the grapevine*

MFJ, HB/LBA/FSIT

Future Co-Owner of The Dancing L Ranch

*pushes the wred one*

February 3, 2004

>I've got more notes on the toxic model of infectious disease, next

>installment :-)

>

i, for one, would very much appreciate the next installment :-)

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

February 3, 2004

>> this concept fascinates me and i've not yet decided what to

>believe. anyone

>> else have an opinon on this?

>

>Yes-- it's bogus. If that were true, why can we replicate diseases by

>injecting said viruses or their toxins into an animal? Moreover,

>why can we isolate

>the *toxins* developed by these organisms and cause disease/physiological

>malfunction?

can you expand on that a little? i'm not sure how that counters the concept

as karen explained it. as i understand her explanation, the healthier you

are the better able you are to deal with viruses/toxins. and the way the

body deals with these is fever, etc. so if someone is getting healthier and

they are getting fevers more often, it may be that their body is more

efficiently responding to the invading virus/toxins.

that doesn't seem to indicate that replicating viruses and causing illness

by injecting them is not possible or even probable.

>

>Sure, being in a bad state of health and having bad tissue will attract

>organisms to eat that crappy tissue-- say, as in tooth decay-- but

>these organisms

>are well established as harmful and capable of reaping havoc on the body--

>hardly the body's " tool. "

in relation to the brix thread and the fact that healthy plants don't

attract pests/harmful organisms, this would make sense. i guess this is

different than what i was thinking in my above response - partly because

karen's explanation isn't fresh in my mind at the moment. i i do recall

aajonus stating ( " aajonus says! " ) something to the effect that parasites

make us healthier by cleaning out diseased tissue. perhaps it's " dose

dependent " ? keep in mind that some " parasites " are now being used to treat

IBD - not because they consume diseased tissue, but rather that they

stimulate the immune system, and the body repairs itself. either way, the

role of " parasites " is not as clear as it once was.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

February 3, 2004

>

>Ah, sorry, been meaning to do something about that. My name would be

>Jewett, I'm just so used to using my initial in sigs and sech that I forget

>that it might confuse people that don't already know me.

ok - i just didn't want to keep calling you " mfj " if you had another name

that you prefer to go by :-)

>

>>

>>in the past six months since you've improved your diet, have you added

>>anything that you weren't eating before, such as dairy? or increased your

>>consumption of anything?

>

>Let's see. I guess you can say I switched over from SAD - SAD including

>quite a good bit of alcohol and nicotine (major failing - Sam Cherry

>Wheat!). It started with the hypothyroid thing - I started eating a bit

>more meat, fish, eggs, cheese, salads ... was really pissed off about all

>my favorite veggies being " off-limits " , namely brassicas.

only *raw* brassicas are problematic, i think. cooking neutralizes

goitrogens (the thyroid suppressing compounds) and i think fermenting may

also. i sure hope so considering the amount of cabbage kimchi i eat

(cruciferous veggies also contain goitrogens).

>

I also made a

>serious effort to get my food from better sources - got lots of grass-fed

>meats, etc., and did a de-cluttering in my refrigideezer and pantry,

>removing anything remotely resembling a processed food and substituting

>better stuff (i.e. let's toss the Van de Kamps fish fillets and make a nice

>variety of dumplings with shrimp and my own-grown veggies and grass-fed

>meats - and use those as " fast food " instead). Got seriously into

>sprouting at that point too, for vegetable intake.

do you eat the sprouts *raw*? just wondering if the problematic compounds in

sprouts could account for your seemingly weakened immune system?

At that point, I also

>started avoiding the usual things that people should avoid -

>processed/refined grains, bread, pasta, etc.

....good...

>

>About two months ago, started working with a naturopath, who pretty much

>told me that diet-wise, I was already going down the right path, just do a

>little more of this, a little less of that. He added a whole bunch of

>supplements based on some blood work - I think I'm taking everything under

>the sun right now, but most of it has to do with some " temporary " things

>that the blood work pinpointed - like liver/gallbladder stress, toxin load,

>and things of that nature. I'm really looking forward to getting that

>whole detox/stress thing under control, would be nice to not have to pop 35

>capsules a day, not to mention the iodine and CLO.

hmmmmmm....it sounds like we might be seeing the same naturopath - ron

schmid? i'm on a similar program, and i also have thyroid issues.

>

>It was actually kinda funny ... after the bloodwork came back, and he added

>all sorts of detox's and antioxidants and sech ... oh, trust me, I KNEW it

>was working. Broke out like crazy, all sorts of other things going on

>... man, that stuff was gonna get out of me any way it COULD! Was

>amusing for a while - 40 and Zitted!

interesting, that didn't happen to me. but i am 40 and only slightly zitted

mainly around the time i menstruate. although ocassionaly at other times as

well (i have very oily skin).

>

>But, so, yeah, that's why I perked up at a detox/immune connection. So

>far none of my experience nor any of the tests done indicate any sort of

>major immune system malfunction on my part ... but yep, was pissed at that

>cold and the one flu I got.

well it could be an indication that you are getting better! or worse! or

better and worse! depending on which hypothesis you believe...LOL!

> So I'd say that I've

>increased the milk consumption, but the rest is pretty much just a case of

>getting better stuff than what I was before (i.e. pastured v. Perdue).

>

here's another idea - maybe you don't digest milk well - specifically alpha

1 casein which seems to be problematic with some folks, and that's wreaking

havoc with your immune system? this is a hypothesis i'm considering for

myself. even though the quality of my food has drastically increased, i'm

getting too many colds, sore throats etc for someone eating so well. i'm

thinking food allergy/intolerance may be at the root of my health issues,

and milk is the one thing that i've increased A LOT since eating NT-style. i

went from almost no milk products at all except a dollop of 1/2 and 1/2 in

my coffee, to drinking lots of milk/kefir/cream daily plus eating yogurt

regularly. of course the quality is much better than that dollop of 1/2 and

1/2 i used to drink, but that probably doesn't affect how alpha 1 casein

affects my body whatsoever - *quantity* would more likely be the issue.

>>what a blast from the past - i used to love joan armatrading :-)

>

>Whaddaya mean USED to, Little Missy?

oh, it's been *years* since i listened to her. my tastes have changed,

although i think i'd probably still like her stuff.

btw, i didn't mean to be harsh on you and judy for having grammatical pet

peeves. just ignore my orneriness - i just get argumentative sometimes for

no apparent reason :-( (of course i realize i might regret saying that on a

list on which i like to argue/debate on a lot - it might get thrown back at

me! LOL)

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

February 4, 2004

At 11:00 PM 2/3/04 -0500, Suze wrote:

>only *raw* brassicas are problematic, i think. cooking neutralizes

>goitrogens (the thyroid suppressing compounds) and i think fermenting may

>also. i sure hope so considering the amount of cabbage kimchi i eat

>(cruciferous veggies also contain goitrogens).

That's what I found out later, much to my joy, about the cooking.

(Goitrogens ... funny word. Say it out loud a few times and see if you

start to giggle.) I was told " well, you shouldn't LIVE on broccoli, but

go ahead and eat it " .

>do you eat the sprouts *raw*? just wondering if the problematic compounds in

>sprouts could account for your seemingly weakened immune system?

Mostly raw. The bigger ones tend to get cooked just a little bit (like

in an omelette or added at the very end of a stir-fry).

>hmmmmmm....it sounds like we might be seeing the same naturopath - ron

>schmid? i'm on a similar program, and i also have thyroid issues.

That we are. The mailman is starting to wonder about all those boxes I

started getting from Connecticut. LOL. Also just started working with a

local guy ( Redding) in combo with Ron - no matter how you look at

it, Ron's somewhat limited by the fact that he's never actually SEEN me and

has to operate long-distance. The tandem seems to be working out really

well.

>>It was actually kinda funny ... after the bloodwork came back, and he added

>>all sorts of detox's and antioxidants and sech ... oh, trust me, I KNEW it

>>was working. Broke out like crazy, all sorts of other things going on

>>... man, that stuff was gonna get out of me any way it COULD! Was

>>amusing for a while - 40 and Zitted!

>

>interesting, that didn't happen to me. but i am 40 and only slightly zitted

>mainly around the time i menstruate. although ocassionaly at other times as

>well (i have very oily skin).

Well, fortunately, that only lasted a couple of days. Was just sort of

entertaining at the time.

>well it could be an indication that you are getting better! or worse! or

>better and worse! depending on which hypothesis you believe...LOL!

LOL - maybe I'll just pick whatever theory suits my mood at the time.

>here's another idea - maybe you don't digest milk well - specifically alpha

>1 casein which seems to be problematic with some folks, and that's wreaking

>havoc with your immune system? this is a hypothesis i'm considering for

>myself. even though the quality of my food has drastically increased, i'm

>getting too many colds, sore throats etc for someone eating so well. i'm

>thinking food allergy/intolerance may be at the root of my health issues,

>and milk is the one thing that i've increased A LOT since eating NT-style. i

>went from almost no milk products at all except a dollop of 1/2 and 1/2 in

>my coffee, to drinking lots of milk/kefir/cream daily plus eating yogurt

>regularly. of course the quality is much better than that dollop of 1/2 and

>1/2 i used to drink, but that probably doesn't affect how alpha 1 casein

>affects my body whatsoever - *quantity* would more likely be the issue.

I'm not sure. Certainly I always drank a lot of milk, even before this

little NT epiphany. My consumption at this point has gone down to more

" normal " levels, about a half gallon a day (except on delivery days, where

I come home and scarf down lots and lots of the freshest stuff!) Yum yum.

The only thing I could say is that yep, maybe I don't digest it well -

but there's also the bit that my digestion in general DOES appear to have

improved at least a little bit since I started drinking the raw (for one

thing, I don't fall over asleep after I eat any more).

I should also note, though, that the cold and flu came right at the

holidays - when I actually ventured out of my hermitage to go to a couple

of parties with a bazillion " cold-recovering " children and families running

about. :-D

>btw, i didn't mean to be harsh on you and judy for having grammatical pet

>peeves. just ignore my orneriness - i just get argumentative sometimes for

>no apparent reason :-( (of course i realize i might regret saying that on a

>list on which i like to argue/debate on a lot - it might get thrown back at

>me! LOL)

I didn't take offense at all - that's why they're call " pet " peeves, not

everyone shares the same ones. Argue/debate away!

MFJ, HB/LBA/FSIT

Future Co-Owner of The Dancing L Ranch

*pushes the wred one*

February 4, 2004