Re: OT Faffy/Mike/Linguistics 101

[Guest guest]

At 08:17 AM 2/2/04 -0500, you wrote:

is it the

> all lower case that bugs you?

>Well, you could always try all caps and see how that works.

I TRIED THAT ONCE WHEN I JOINED MY FIRST EMAIL LIST. PEOPLE TOLD ME TO STOP

YELLING! I'VE BEEN DOING ALL LOWER CASE EVER SINCE.

(or something like that ;-)

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Do you have a pain in your pinkies?

Enjoy! ;-)

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

From: Suze Fisher [mailto:s.fisher22@...]

At 08:17 AM 2/2/04 -0500, you wrote:

is it the

> all lower case that bugs you?

>Well, you could always try all caps and see how that works.

I TRIED THAT ONCE WHEN I JOINED MY FIRST EMAIL LIST. PEOPLE TOLD ME TO STOP

YELLING! I'VE BEEN DOING ALL LOWER CASE EVER SINCE.

(or something like that ;-)

Suze Fisher

[Guest guest]

At 12:23 PM 2/2/04 -0500, you wrote:

>>Well, you could always try all caps and see how that works.

>

>

> I TRIED THAT ONCE WHEN I JOINED MY FIRST EMAIL LIST. PEOPLE TOLD ME TO STOP

> YELLING! I'VE BEEN DOING ALL LOWER CASE EVER SINCE.

Well, see, that works just as well, as far as I'm concerned. I've always

been more of a mumbler than a yeller myself. Just ask my neighbors.

They always seem to be concerned when they catch me outside, talking to the

plants, the fence, the bugs, the clod of dirt I just tripped over ...

MFJ

Some days the bear will eat you, some days you'll eat the bear. ~Joan

Armatrading

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/1/04 5:44:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,

gramlin@... writes:

> The " correct " version of English, in England is called " Queen's English " or

> ( " Kings English, depending who is on the throne). Usually the newscasters

> on the BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) can be relied upon to speak

> English correctly.

You call it " correct English; " I call it " bastardized German. "

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/1/04 10:47:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> >It does make a difference.

>

> no it doesn't actually - it depends on what your parents *value* (and what

> YOU value) - not the mere fact that they were teachers.

For example, Suze's parents being teachers hardly rubbed off on her

capitalization habits.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@

> > " DId you do that yet " ? is my pet hate - No-one in

> > England says that! Should be " Have you done that

> > yet " .

> >

> > Jo

> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Mike wrote:

> two different sentences, two different meanings--should be either

one

> depending on the internal temporal frame of reference in the mind

of

> the speaker at the time of utterance. the tense and aspect are

> simply different in the two sentences.

I disagree. The word " did " is past tense. However, the word yet at

the end indicates it isn't past tense, because it hasn't necessarily

been done. " Have " is present tense, and therefore can be used

with " yet " .

" Did you do that " is perfectly acceptable, but not when " yet " is

added.

And I have no idea how you can compare this to cat and dog. In my

example, the meaning is the same except that one is incorrect

grammatically.

Jo

[Guest guest]

>

> @@@@@@@@@@@@@

>

> > indeed, pretty ugly, but " me and her went... " is

> > best, not the common

> > bastardization of English of " her and I went... "

> > that most people are

> > taught to believe is " correct " .

>

> And what would be wrong with the " correct " " She and I

> went " ?

>

> Jo

@@@@@@@@@@@@

nothing really wrong, just an artificial substitution for the

natural, normal " me and her " that is correct in terms of ***the

systematic cognitive process of grammar***. it's distribution is

sociolinguistically determined. normal case assignment (i.e.

nominative, accusative, etc) doesn't go through in coordination

structures ( " x and y " ) like this. cross-linguistically, and

certainly in the case of English, you'll find that languages usually

choose **accusative** case as a default when normal case assignment

doesn't apply... using nominative case in these examples is like

feeding cows seeds--people do it and it " works " but it's not

what " nature " would be doing without awkward human intervention...

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

[Guest guest]

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

> > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@

> > > " DId you do that yet " ? is my pet hate - No-one in

> > > England says that! Should be " Have you done that

> > > yet " .

> > >

> > > Jo

> > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>

> Mike wrote:

> > two different sentences, two different meanings--should be either

> one

> > depending on the internal temporal frame of reference in the mind

> of

> > the speaker at the time of utterance. the tense and aspect are

> > simply different in the two sentences.

>

> I disagree. The word " did " is past tense. However, the word yet

at

> the end indicates it isn't past tense, because it hasn't

necessarily

> been done. " Have " is present tense, and therefore can be used

> with " yet " .

>

> " Did you do that " is perfectly acceptable, but not when " yet " is

> added.

>

> And I have no idea how you can compare this to cat and dog. In my

> example, the meaning is the same except that one is incorrect

> grammatically.

>

> Jo

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Hate to quote so much in this bottom-post, but you'll note that this

point was already made in my previous email and I'm just paraphrasing

it here. The meaning is ***different*** in your example! As I noted

and noone would dispute, the tense and aspect are different, hence

different meaning. Case closed.

As far as the more interesting issue you raise, I can only go by

native-speaker data, and I can't come up with any judgement

that " yet " is incompatible with past tense, so both are grammatical

to me. However, you have a very good point, and I think you're

correct for all practical purposes, as I do find the " have " version

more natural in general with " yet " and it would be my preference

too. Your reasoning about " yet " and tense is totally valid. I have

some ideas about why the " did " sentence is still grammatical, but

they are way too complicated and technical to go into here.

(Especially since we're already so OT...) There are some very

subtle things going on behind the scenes here that allow these kinds

of temporal references switches, and there might also be some lexical

shift issues too... It would be a significant project to answer

these questions and it's not my current research area...

Again, for all practical purposes you're correct...

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

[Guest guest]

>> >It does make a difference.

>>

>> no it doesn't actually - it depends on what your parents *value*

>(and what

>> YOU value) - not the mere fact that they were teachers.

>

>For example, Suze's parents being teachers hardly rubbed off on her

>capitalization habits.

>

>Chris

LOL! *exactly*!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>>i don't think being raised by a teacher per se has anything to do

>with it -

>>but rather the values of person you were raised by. BOTH of my

>parents were

>>educators as was i (my graduate degree is in education) but i have little

>>tolerance for rigidity about the form of language (ie' spelling, grammar,

>>etc). (ok, well except for the pronunciation of " kefir " <weg>.)

>>

>

>

>Oh kewl, does this mean you will stop correcting my grammar? <weg>

fat chance, especially your frequent mispronunciation of kefir. <weg>

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>