Re: POLITICS and values (was: morality)

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 00:30:14 -0800

" Berg " <bberg@...> wrote:

>You're trying to frame this as a question of whether everyone should be

>forced to abide by our values or by yours (or perhaps even as a question

>of whether everyone should be forced to abide by our values or by some

>set of goals which you believe to be objectively good, rather than a

>product of your values). This is inaccurate. The only question on the

>table is whether you should be able to impose a certain subset of your

>values upon us. There is no question of us imposing our values on you.

Excellent summary, IMO.

>In fact, , and I don't even have the same values.

>'s a devout Catholic and I'm an atheist. is an

>environmentalist and I'm a technophile.

Actually I'm Eastern Orthodox, a free market environmentalist, and love

technology (although you are probably referring to genetic engineering

and other types of " high " technology).

We can all coexist peacefully,

>though, because none of us has any desire to impose our values on the

>others. For whatever reason, though, that's not enough for you. You have

>some grand plan for society which requires our participation, and if we

>won't give it voluntarily, you're willing and eager to take it by any

>means possible. You may think that that's acceptable, but, speaking in a

>purely objective and value-free sense, you're the agressor here.

Thus my equating of Heidi <g> with Rush Limbaugh, each wants to

*impose* their grand plan on society whether or not we want to

participate.

Liking

http://tinyurl.com/3d8n5

" They told just the same,

That just because a tyrant has the might

By force of arms to murder men downright

And burn down house and home and leave all flat

They call the man a captain, just for that.

But since an outlaw with his little band

Cannot bring half such mischief on the land

Or be the cause of so much harm and grief,

He only earns the title of a thief. "

--Geoffrey Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale

[Guest guest]

>Actually I'm Eastern Orthodox, a free market environmentalist, and love

>technology (although you are probably referring to genetic engineering

>and other types of " high " technology).

what is a free market environmentalist?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

>Thus my equating of Heidi <g> with Rush Limbaugh, each wants to

>*impose* their grand plan on society whether or not we want to

>participate.

>

>

Actually, in MOST aspects I do NOT agree with forcing

values on anyone. Communities and nations are kind

of an odd case ... if you are living together with other

people in a house, a neighborhood, a state, or

a country, at some point you MUST have *some* rules

in order to coexist. Hopefully they are as minimal

as is possible to still have harmony. Hopefully

the community votes on the standards and they

aren't imposed by one person. And usually in every group,

there is some sharing of finances.

But it's been that way in every group of humans

that has ever co-existed. Even this group -- it has rules.

Many types of groups also have dues. You don't pay

the dues, you get kicked out.

Where we differ, I think, is that I see the " state " as

simply an extension of every other type of community

group. You see the state as a special case because they

have the sole monopoly on force and because of enforced

taxation. I haven't been convinced yet, that the forces of

pragmatics and geography can be overcome so that the

state/nation can exist peacefully *without* taxation and

a monopoly on force. If you live in my house and insist

on not taking a bath, I'll probably kick you out ... but it's

difficult to kick people out of a country.

But that is far different from saying that I want to impose

one set of values on everyone. I want the group to reach

consensus on a set of values that work and aren't too

invasive. It's the difference between saying " I insist that

all humans must stop eating wheat " and saying " We could have

a law that forces food companies to list ingredients on

their labels so people have a choice " . Rush often tries

to impose ONE set of rules, I merely support the IDEA

of (enforced) rules, and you folks seem to be against

the IDEA of rules in general.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>what is a free market environmentalist?

An oxymoron.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

-