RE: liver flush update

[Guest guest]

katja -

>two hours till the olive oil, but no update after that cause i'll be too

>busy making ICK faces and going immediately to bed (like the instructions

>say).

Hopefully you're having a peaceful night now and letting the olive oil do its

thang. Good luck!!

- Filippa

[Guest guest]

well! i have to say, that was no where *near* the challenge the

instructions make it out to be!!!

however, when i really thought about it, the instructions are written for

an acutely-ill audience, so, ya know.

the olive oil-grapefruit mix is actually really not bad at all. a bit

acidic but the epsomsalts are FAR worse. i mixed mine with half water, half

grapefruit juice, and i don't like grapefruit juice, so next time i think

i'll use apple juice (also recommended, but i just didn't have any) and see

if that's better. my stomach never turned and everything was just fine. and

boy - i'm SQUEAKY clean, let me tell ya! i didn't see as many stones as i

thought would be there, but they do say you have to do it several times. my

naturopath suggested doing it three days in a row, which i think would be

perfectly fine for most people but with nursing, i found that i got pretty

dehydrated, so i'm going to wait a bit and then do it again.

i highly recommend it!

-katja

At 05:18 AM 2/16/2004, you wrote:

>katja -

>

> >two hours till the olive oil, but no update after that cause i'll be too

> >busy making ICK faces and going immediately to bed (like the

> instructions >say).

>

>Hopefully you're having a peaceful night now and letting the olive oil do

>its thang. Good luck!!

>

>- Filippa

[Guest guest]

Hi & well done Katja!

> well! i have to say, that was no where *near* the challenge the

> instructions make it out to be!!!

That's good, as I've read lots of stories of people getting it wrong,

getting queasy or even being sick.

> i didn't see as many stones as i

> thought would be there,

I think it's amazing that this works so well but has been " forgotten " .

Pray tell, how many stones were there there? One is pretty

impressive..............

> my

> naturopath suggested doing it three days in a row

I've never seen this suggested, but doing fairly rapidly in succession seems

to be common.

Thanks for your positive update - very encouraging. I'll be there in a few

weeks' time!

Helen

[Guest guest]

At 01:18 PM 2/16/2004, you wrote:

>Hi & well done Katja!

hee - thanks!

> > well! i have to say, that was no where *near* the challenge the

> > instructions make it out to be!!!

>

>That's good, as I've read lots of stories of people getting it wrong,

>getting queasy or even being sick.

well, i should also note that i did adhere strictly to the schedule, and i

did drink the oil/juice standing up at the side of my bed and then i laid

right down and turned out the light, etc etc. the only thing i did that

wasn't in the instructions was that i nursed during the night, but ya know.

don't have much choice on that!

> > i didn't see as many stones as i

> > thought would be there,

>

>I think it's amazing that this works so well but has been " forgotten " .

>Pray tell, how many stones were there there? One is pretty

>impressive..............

well, the instructions say that you'll get like 200. i probably got

something like 30-50, but they were little tiny bits, not the big cherry

tomato stones. then again, i'm in pretty good health, so that seems

reasonable...

> > my

> > naturopath suggested doing it three days in a row

>

>I've never seen this suggested, but doing fairly rapidly in succession seems

>to be common.

>Thanks for your positive update - very encouraging. I'll be there in a few

>weeks' time!

hee. i'm thinking i'll do it at least once more in a couple weeks - with

the nursing, i don't want to risk dehydrating.

make sure to drink lots in the morning when you're allowed to eat and drink!

>Helen

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

....to throw a bit of a wet blanket on the liver flush folklore -- there are

folks out there who say it's neither safe nor beneficial to do this. I

leave it up to you to decide who you believe, but I thought it important to

mention that there is another, less rosy view of liver flushes.

The " not safe " crowd worries that you'll loosen a large stone and get it

stuck in the bile duct, which will then cause you to have emergency surgery

to fix that and to end the pain the stuck stone will cause... The " not

beneficial " crowd includes Dr. Weil (with whom I usually disagree),

who says that the bits you see in your toilet the day after your flush are

not stones at all, but simply the coagulated oil you drank:

http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.html-command=TodayQA-questionId=16253-

pt=Question.

see this site for a look at the various sides of the issue:

http://www.curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=83

<http://www.curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=83 & i=248> & i=248

[Guest guest]

At 04:25 PM 2/16/2004, you wrote:

> The " not

>beneficial " crowd includes Dr. Weil (with whom I usually disagree),

>who says that the bits you see in your toilet the day after your flush are

>not stones at all, but simply the coagulated oil you drank:

>http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.html-command=TodayQA-questionId=16253-

>pt=Question.

i wondered about this. i wondered what part the oil really plays in the

process. it seems to me that perhaps just the salts part of the flush would

be sufficient - but this could just be my ignorance about how the oil is

supposed to work...

but in reading this guy's suggestions, he says it would be better to

substitute soy for animal protein, so i'm not sure about that. the curezone

link is pretty interesting but i guess i'll see in a couple days - if my

skin looks better, i'll be a believer. if not, well, it wasn't such a bad

day.

-katja

[Guest guest]

If by " this guy " you are referring to Dr. Weill, you might think

twice or thrice before taking his suggestions as he is vegetarian.

From all I have read about soy the last few years I want no part of it.

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

From: katja [mailto:katja@...]

At 04:25 PM 2/16/2004, you wrote:

> The " not

>beneficial " crowd includes Dr. Weil (with whom I usually disagree),

>who says that the bits you see in your toilet the day after your flush are

>not stones at all, but simply the coagulated oil you drank:

>http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.html-command=TodayQA-questionId=16253

-

>pt=Question.

i wondered about this. i wondered what part the oil really plays in the

process. it seems to me that perhaps just the salts part of the flush would

be sufficient - but this could just be my ignorance about how the oil is

supposed to work...

but in reading this guy's suggestions, he says it would be better to

substitute soy for animal protein, so i'm not sure about that. the curezone

link is pretty interesting but i guess i'll see in a couple days - if my

skin looks better, i'll be a believer. if not, well, it wasn't such a bad

day.

-katja

[Guest guest]

Hiya,

> but I thought it important to

> mention that there is another, less rosy view of liver flushes.

Thanks .

> The " not safe " crowd worries that you'll loosen a large stone and get it

> stuck in the bile duct, which will then cause you to have emergency

surgery

> to fix that and to end the pain the stuck stone will cause...

Has anyone else heard of this happening?

> The " not

> beneficial " crowd includes Dr. Weil (with whom I usually disagree),

> who says that the bits you see in your toilet the day after your flush are

> not stones at all, but simply the coagulated oil you drank:

I've read of at least five separate occasions (Hulda e

http://www.angelhealingcenter.com/GallstonePictures.html - FINAL two pics

only), Claude , Dr Koh, others posted privately on Curezone.com eg

http://curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=73 & i=222 and one apparently published in

the Lancet in 1999 which I can't access) where the stones have been analysed

in a lab and are actually gallstones. So I guess sometimes at least, they

are gallstones! Also, it appears that (1) they can be spontaneously

expelled even when no oil has been ingested; (2) that this can happen during

salt-based flushes; and (3) that the number of stones appears to tail off

the more flushes ones does, all of which make the recently-ingested oil

theory less tenable.

Of course, some or many of them may well be coagulated oil - but it seems

as if the process does expel biley chlorestorol stones too (to use a

technical term).

Not for the faint-hearted though (a set I'm definitely a member of).

Helen

[Guest guest]

Hi Katja,

>. i wondered what part the oil really plays in the

> process.

It is supposed to trigger the gallbladder to release lots of bile to push

the stones out and lubricate everything.

> it seems to me that perhaps just the salts part of the flush would

> be sufficient - but this could just be my ignorance about how the oil is

> supposed to work...

apparently it can work on its own too.

> but i guess i'll see in a couple days - if my

> skin looks better, i'll be a believer. if not, well, it wasn't such a bad

> day.

and you've clocked up some bravery points

Helen

[Guest guest]

Katja -

>well! i have to say, that was no where *near* the challenge the

>instructions make it out to be!!!

Everyone reacts differently and each time can even be different.

>the olive oil-grapefruit mix is actually really not bad at all.

I agree. Though your intolerance can build.

>a bit acidic but the epsomsalts are FAR worse.

don't forget the way with the straw. Put the epsom salts in a glass of juice.

Take a straw, put it to the bottom of the glass and start sucking then lift the

straw up while sucking so that you finish with juice to wash the salts down. You

almost don't taste them.

>i found that i got pretty dehydrated, so i'm going to wait a bit and then do it

again.

I've always drunk water as desired. too dehydrating otherwise.

- Filippa

[Guest guest]

>Hi & well done Katja!

I second that!! Forgot to add that to my previous post.

Filippa

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: CF Beaver

>...to throw a bit of a wet blanket on the liver flush folklore -- there are

>folks out there who say it's neither safe nor beneficial to do this. I

>leave it up to you to decide who you believe, but I thought it important to

>mention that there is another, less rosy view of liver flushes.

, it comes down to experience. My chronic fatigue, constipation, allergies,

acne and hayfever were all cured with my first liver flush. My gall bladder was

blocked as it was so choked up. The bile that was stuck in there went off and

this was putting toxins into my system. In just a few days my skin colour,

texture and tone changed dramatically. People who didn't even know I had done

the flush started commenting on how much better I looked. The change in my

energy levels and clarity of mind were astounding.

I have read literally hundreds of stories like mine, including people who have

cured themselves of quite serious illnesses such as lupus and bad psoriasis. A

friend of mine did the flush just to support his partner who had been diagnosed

with gallstones and his migraines were cured (after 2 flushes). Other people

with cholesterol problems also had great results.

So it's not to say it's the right thing for everyone but it certainly has

benefitted almost everyone I know that has done it.

>The " not safe " crowd worries that you'll loosen a large stone and get it

>stuck in the bile duct, which will then cause you to have emergency surgery

>to fix that and to end the pain the stuck stone will cause...

This is so rare. In all the hundreds if not thousands of experiences I have

read, I have come across this situation twice. Mostly, if a stone gets stuck,

you just do the flush again immediately and you will generally be able to

dislodge the stone. It's just a matter of not panicking.

>The " not beneficial " crowd includes Dr. Weil (with whom I usually

>disagree),who says that the bits you see in your toilet the day after your

>flush are not stones at all, but simply the coagulated oil you drank:

>http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.html-command=TodayQA-questionId=16253-

>pt=Question.

This is commonly mentioned but not at all true. The science of it has been

explained endlessly. I have also seen lab reports confirming that the green

stones are cholesterol and bile salts. They are definitely not oil. I have had

these green stones come out when I hadn't had any olive oil, citrus or epsom

salts for weeks. I also know people who have had the stones come out after

eating a fatty meal.

The main misconception is that the green stones are the gall stones that show up

on ultrasound. They are not. They are the pre-calcified stones that can turn

into calcified ones if not flushed out or not dissolved in the body's own

processes (such as eating more fat).

People (including myself in the early days) get disappointed when they do a

flush, get a follow-up ultrasound and find the same stones showing up. They

then conclude it hasn't worked. For me, the changes to my health were so

radical that I knew it had done something. I was never able to flush out my

calcified stones but they have reverted to being " silent " stones since I adopted

the NT way of eating. I believe I caused my stones through a low fat vegetarian

diet.

Until the last 6 months, the " gallstone " issue preoccupied me for about ten

years. I have read just about everything there is to read and religiously read

the curezone over a few years. No one can refute the positive benefits that

thousands have experienced.

My problem continued because my misconceptions about a healthy diet continued

until I went to Sally Fallon's seminar a year ago. I kept flushing but didn't

know how to stop my body making stones. Now, happily, my gallstone problem is

fading into my past - thanks to liver flushing and the NT way.

- Filippa

[Guest guest]

>It is supposed to trigger the gallbladder to release lots of bile to push

>the stones out and lubricate everything.

Protein, oil and fat trigger the gallbladder to contract and release bile. The

reason for not eating fat the day of the flush is to allow the pressure to build

up to push out any stones that may have formed. The problem is that calcified

stones over the size of your bile duct can't get out. There are Chinese herbs

that can break them down (Gold Coin Grass). In my and countless others'

experiences, the calcified stones don't cause a problem.

>> it seems to me that perhaps just the salts part of the flush would

>> be sufficient - but this could just be my ignorance about how the oil is

>> supposed to work...

>apparently it can work on its own too.

Never heard of only an epsom salt flush but many people do the liver flushing

with just oil and lemon/grapefruit.

>and you've clocked up some bravery points

It's mind over matter. As Katja said, it's really not that hard. I can't count

the number of times I've done the liver flush in ten years. Try drinking two

cups straight as I did my first few flushes - now THAT'S not for the

faint-hearted! The Hulda way? - easy as (for most).

But well done Katja. I'll look forward to hearing if you feel any benefits from

it. Depends why you're doing it in the first place. Also, one flush may not be

enough. My experience is it is best to follow your instincts with it and adapt

it according to your needs/situation.

Filippa

[Guest guest]

Hello everyone. My girlfriend had gallbladder problems, and wants to do a

flush...though I'm not sure her Cocoa Pebbles will help afterwards. Anyway,

after reading about it, I'm going to do it with her. Where do we find the

flush information? I've seen too many versions to choose, so I'll just do

yours Katja. Thanks in advance.

Best Wishes.

Michele

>From: " Filippa " <filippa91@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: Re: liver flush update

>Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:18:21 +1000

>

> >It is supposed to trigger the gallbladder to release lots of bile to push

> >the stones out and lubricate everything.

>

>Protein, oil and fat trigger the gallbladder to contract and release bile.

>The reason for not eating fat the day of the flush is to allow the pressure

>to build up to push out any stones that may have formed. The problem is

>that calcified stones over the size of your bile duct can't get out. There

>are Chinese herbs that can break them down (Gold Coin Grass). In my and

>countless others' experiences, the calcified stones don't cause a problem.

>

>

> >> it seems to me that perhaps just the salts part of the flush would

> >> be sufficient - but this could just be my ignorance about how the oil

>is

> >> supposed to work...

>

> >apparently it can work on its own too.

>

>Never heard of only an epsom salt flush but many people do the liver

>flushing with just oil and lemon/grapefruit.

>

> >and you've clocked up some bravery points

>

>It's mind over matter. As Katja said, it's really not that hard. I can't

>count the number of times I've done the liver flush in ten years. Try

>drinking two cups straight as I did my first few flushes - now THAT'S not

>for the faint-hearted! The Hulda way? - easy as (for most).

>

>But well done Katja. I'll look forward to hearing if you feel any benefits

>from it. Depends why you're doing it in the first place. Also, one flush

>may not be enough. My experience is it is best to follow your instincts

>with it and adapt it according to your needs/situation.

>

>Filippa

>

>

[Guest guest]

>Where do we find the flush information? I've seen too many versions to choose,

>so I'll just do yours Katja. Thanks in advance.

Michele, www.curezone.com (liver flush forum) is the best resource as far as I

know. Most people do the Hulda method (the one that Katja) did as it is

easy: you only drink 1/2 cup oil and it doesn't taste like oil as it is mixed

with grapefruit juice. You can find the HC method outlined on the curezone site

- just click on " recipes " I think.

- Filippa

[Guest guest]

heehee - thanks!

i think if i'd gone on drinking water through the day, it would have been

an absolute piece of cake. the dehydration was the only part that was

getting to me - even the salts' taste goes away in just a minute or two!

At 03:57 AM 2/17/2004, you wrote:

> >Hi & well done Katja!

>

>I second that!! Forgot to add that to my previous post.

>

>Filippa

>

>

[Guest guest]

i did the hulda clark one that's on curezone.com

however, i added grapefruit juice to the epsomsalts - and i think that's

why they tasted so bad. use applejuice instead

At 04:39 AM 2/17/2004, you wrote:

>Hello everyone. My girlfriend had gallbladder problems, and wants to do a

>flush...though I'm not sure her Cocoa Pebbles will help afterwards. Anyway,

>after reading about it, I'm going to do it with her. Where do we find the

>flush information? I've seen too many versions to choose, so I'll just do

>yours Katja. Thanks in advance.

>

>Best Wishes.

>

>Michele

>

>

> >From: " Filippa " <filippa91@...>

> >Reply-

> >< >

> >Subject: Re: liver flush update

> >Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:18:21 +1000

> >

> > >It is supposed to trigger the gallbladder to release lots of bile to push

> > >the stones out and lubricate everything.

> >

> >Protein, oil and fat trigger the gallbladder to contract and release bile.

> >The reason for not eating fat the day of the flush is to allow the pressure

> >to build up to push out any stones that may have formed. The problem is

> >that calcified stones over the size of your bile duct can't get out. There

> >are Chinese herbs that can break them down (Gold Coin Grass). In my and

> >countless others' experiences, the calcified stones don't cause a problem.

> >

> >

> > >> it seems to me that perhaps just the salts part of the flush would

> > >> be sufficient - but this could just be my ignorance about how the oil

> >is

> > >> supposed to work...

> >

> > >apparently it can work on its own too.

> >

> >Never heard of only an epsom salt flush but many people do the liver

> >flushing with just oil and lemon/grapefruit.

> >

> > >and you've clocked up some bravery points

> >

> >It's mind over matter. As Katja said, it's really not that hard. I can't

> >count the number of times I've done the liver flush in ten years. Try

> >drinking two cups straight as I did my first few flushes - now THAT'S not

> >for the faint-hearted! The Hulda way? - easy as (for most).

> >

> >But well done Katja. I'll look forward to hearing if you feel any benefits

> >from it. Depends why you're doing it in the first place. Also, one flush

> >may not be enough. My experience is it is best to follow your instincts

> >with it and adapt it according to your needs/situation.

> >

> >Filippa

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> I've read of at least five separate occasions (Hulda e

> http://www.angelhealingcenter.com/GallstonePictures.html - FINAL

two pics

> only),

Geez! How much would all those little stones weigh combined!

Ghislaine

[Guest guest]

> > I've read of at least five separate occasions (Hulda e

> > http://www.angelhealingcenter.com/GallstonePictures.html - FINAL

> two pics

> > only),

>

> Geez! How much would all those little stones weigh combined!

>

>

> Ghislaine

I know... I'm not sure about the first two pictures - they look like garden

stones or gravel to me!!

Would be an easy way to shed a few pounds

Helen

[Guest guest]

>I know... I'm not sure about the first two pictures - they look like garden

>stones or gravel to me!!

When you see the stuff come out of your own body, you'll believe it!

- Filipppa

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the link . Don't remember if I wrote a thank you note.

Filippa, where you unhealthy before becoming vegetarian(I think you said you

were)? I'm just curious about your experience. Someone on the CC list told

me about Weston Price at one point, may have been you, not sure, but I was

like, " Price, Schmice " . That pretty much sums up my reaction to everything

at first, ie, " bifida, schmifida " , " soaking nuts, Schmoking buts " , etc. This

is usually fine as it prompts me to do a lot of research, but in this case,

I feel it may have cost my teeth(and possibly Gaby's) a bit, not to mention

his mucosa lining(according to some info I read about the mama's breastmilk

being deficient in factors which allow for complete development of the

lining, hence his issues with certain foods), and these ugly holes in my

nails and hair, which are thankfully growing out quite fast. Anyway, I was

wondering a bit about ways you overcame problems caused by your diet....if

it affected any kids you may have had while eating that way, etc.

I'm trying to overcome guilt and physical setbacks, and move us into a

healthy future.

Katja, aside from dehydration, you were fine on the cleanse? It doesn't

affect the milk in any way? How are you otherwise?

Take care ya'll!

Sincerely,

Michele

_________________________________________________________________

Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-Speed

Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

At 06:15 PM 2/17/2004, you wrote:

>Katja, aside from dehydration, you were fine on the cleanse? It doesn't

>affect the milk in any way? How are you otherwise?

yep - amber continued to nurse like a banshee and there didn't seem to be

any change in the taste (yes, i checked.) everything else was fine too. i'd

definitely recommend drinking water though - since filippa mentioned she

does that - i was just being uberstrict.

[Guest guest]

Hee hee, nursing like a banshee. I'm glad to know it worked out for you. For

shame, not drinking water, for shame.

Best wishes

Michele

>From: katja <katja@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: liver flush update

>Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:54:40 -0500

>

>At 06:15 PM 2/17/2004, you wrote:

> >Katja, aside from dehydration, you were fine on the cleanse? It doesn't

> >affect the milk in any way? How are you otherwise?

>

>yep - amber continued to nurse like a banshee and there didn't seem to be

>any change in the taste (yes, i checked.) everything else was fine too. i'd

>definitely recommend drinking water though - since filippa mentioned she

>does that - i was just being uberstrict.

>

_________________________________________________________________

Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free!

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[Guest guest]

@@@@@@@@@

Someone on the CC list told

> me about Weston Price at one point, may have been you, not sure,

but I was

> like, " Price, Schmice " . That pretty much sums up my reaction to

everything

> at first, ie, " bifida, schmifida " , " soaking nuts, Schmoking buts " ,

etc. This

> is usually fine as it prompts me to do a lot of research,

> Michele

@@@@@@@@@@

Hey, Health, Schmealth. Who needs it when you've got such a poetic

lifestyle!

" Only as an aesthetic phenomenon may existence and the world appear

justified " --Nietzsche

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

[Guest guest]

Filippa, where you unhealthy before becoming vegetarian?

===> Hi Michele. I was 14 when I became vegetarian so I don't think I'd had

time to be unhealthy. I did have hayfever/animal allergies which indicates a

liver problem. But the hormone problems came later probably because of lack of

animal fat.

I'm just curious about your experience.

===> Like you, I tended to pooh pooh most fads and no-one was ever able to

convince me I shouldn't be a vegetarian until I went to Sally Fallon's lecture.

In one evening, my whole eating world was turned upside down.

Anyway, I was wondering a bit about ways you overcame problems caused by your

diet....if it affected any kids you may have had while eating that way, etc. I'm

trying to overcome guilt and physical setbacks, and move us into a healthy

future.

===> Well for me it was as pure a diet as possible, liver flushing and then for

the past year, NT-style eating: lots of raw dairy, kefir, meat, eggs, fish, etc.

At one point I needed HCl to digest but my body seems to have adjusted to my new

diet and I feel better and better. For the first time in my life I don't need

to use lip balm, my skin is much more supple and not as dry too. This is my

first pregnancy so I haven't had kids before.

===> I guess everyone suffers guilt from their past actions/beliefs/lifestyles

but I'm sure health can be transformed through diet so just be thankful you

found NT and Weston Price while Gabi is so young. ;-)

- Filippa