Productive Discussions-Explosive Exercise is pointless

[Guest guest]

Anyone who has attended a powerlifting meet knows that most of the time

the bar moves slowly. Yet many powerlifters spend part of their time

training the squat and bench explosively (lifting about half their 1 RM

as explosively as possible). To learn more about explosive lifting for

powerlifting read the work of Louie and Dave Tate.

While HIT has been popular with athletes in the past(any type of

strength training is better than no strength training), it's primary

focus is building muscle mass not increasing athletic performance.

Most of HIT famous spokesmen were bodybuilders not athletes. Limit

yourself to just one training dogma and you will limit your results.

Everything (even superslow) has its time and its place. It's not about

what's best, but what is most appropiate at the time.

Tom Rankin

MT View, CA

USA

[Guest guest]

Anyone who has attended a powerlifting meet knows that most of the time

the bar moves slowly. Yet many powerlifters spend part of their time

training the squat and bench explosively (lifting about half their 1 RM

as explosively as possible). To learn more about explosive lifting for

powerlifting read the work of Louie and Dave Tate.

While HIT has been popular with athletes in the past(any type of

strength training is better than no strength training), it's primary

focus is building muscle mass not increasing athletic performance.

Most of HIT famous spokesmen were bodybuilders not athletes. Limit

yourself to just one training dogma and you will limit your results.

Everything (even superslow) has its time and its place. It's not about

what's best, but what is most appropiate at the time.

Tom Rankin

MT View, CA

USA

[Guest guest]

I will agree with generally saying the bar is slow on the way UP with a true

maximal attempt in powerlifting....

But it's stupid practice to take the bar DOWN very slowly, for that's more

effort than to descend with control but more speedily. That's the case in both

the bench and the squat. Long ago, my first coach quite seriously chided me for

" standing under the weight too long " . The objective is to get your weight out

of the rack, set up, get your commands, get it down and up, and RACKED before

you get tired under it! Wasting energy under an attempt is a way to make sure

you won't get your lifts later in the meet...just like standing or pacing around

in between attempts is as well...

In the deadlift, you need bar SPEED to achieve your lockout. Therefore that

lift has more of a speed requirement from the very start to achieve the end

result. There is no " descent " phase with the weight added to load a spring in a

single.....and I work bar SPEED a great deal, to make sure the bar is leaving

the floor quickly enough, even with a max lift for me. You might argue the

person is loading a spring like phase, but it's not the same as bench or squat

where there's an arguable weight added rebound happening....

If the bar leaves the floor too slowly, generally you cannot even grind it out.

You'll be in a lousy position and the recovery is miserable at best and usually

doesn't happen lol. Dave and Louie did very little to improve deadlift training

overall. They were much more interested in the lifts of squat and bench press

and selected the majority of their people for that short, round build that tends

to excel in the first two lifts. They also did not hash around that they

trained using drugs and built a program it takes such aids to survive, with up

to 9 short maximal effort workouts a week....

I'd also disagree with the load you suggest, half my time is not spent with half

my 1 rep max doing bench or squat (that is unproductive weight loads even 8-10

reps usually unless you've been off from meets for quite some time..). I've

discarded both " speed workouts " on those exercises as being too rough on joints

for a drug free athlete with fairly long arms in bench in particular....it's

more productive for me to do the lifts once a week, with a possible DL partial

thrown in with squat for assist work. I also DL every week, not intermittently

as many who follow Dave and Louie do. I don't do box squats either....I

consider the risk far more present than a reward for me. I don't spend any time

at all on a half my max DL by the way lol. I start higher than that and grind

out 5 sets of 10 at the start of my programs.... for me, the lift that carries

the other two is my deadlift. I train THAT lift hard and to overloads, and back

the other two off to form work if need be to avoi

d the dreaded overtraining. I've found if I don't overtrain I'm still gaining

on my strength even after a full decade on the platform...in the lift that gets

the least assist from even single ply poly lol.

I can't think of anybody who uses half their max for half the program

actually.... PL tend to work with higher levels of weight over longer times than

I think most people are aware of... we're just used to the work capacity I guess

over the years. If I had to guess, I've seen a lot of work in that 70% 1 rpm

range consistently... veterans being the gauge, as newbies don't really HAVE 1

rep maxes for some time after they start!

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing lifetime drug free powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

-------------- Original message --------------

Anyone who has attended a powerlifting meet knows that most of the time

the bar moves slowly. Yet many powerlifters spend part of their time

training the squat and bench explosively (lifting about half their 1 RM

as explosively as possible). To learn more about explosive lifting for

powerlifting read the work of Louie and Dave Tate.

While HIT has been popular with athletes in the past(any type of

strength training is better than no strength training), it's primary

focus is building muscle mass not increasing athletic performance.

Most of HIT famous spokesmen were bodybuilders not athletes. Limit

yourself to just one training dogma and you will limit your results.

Everything (even superslow) has its time and its place. It's not about

what's best, but what is most appropiate at the time.

Tom Rankin

MT View, CA

USA

====================================

[Guest guest]

I will agree with generally saying the bar is slow on the way UP with a true

maximal attempt in powerlifting....

But it's stupid practice to take the bar DOWN very slowly, for that's more

effort than to descend with control but more speedily. That's the case in both

the bench and the squat. Long ago, my first coach quite seriously chided me for

" standing under the weight too long " . The objective is to get your weight out

of the rack, set up, get your commands, get it down and up, and RACKED before

you get tired under it! Wasting energy under an attempt is a way to make sure

you won't get your lifts later in the meet...just like standing or pacing around

in between attempts is as well...

In the deadlift, you need bar SPEED to achieve your lockout. Therefore that

lift has more of a speed requirement from the very start to achieve the end

result. There is no " descent " phase with the weight added to load a spring in a

single.....and I work bar SPEED a great deal, to make sure the bar is leaving

the floor quickly enough, even with a max lift for me. You might argue the

person is loading a spring like phase, but it's not the same as bench or squat

where there's an arguable weight added rebound happening....

If the bar leaves the floor too slowly, generally you cannot even grind it out.

You'll be in a lousy position and the recovery is miserable at best and usually

doesn't happen lol. Dave and Louie did very little to improve deadlift training

overall. They were much more interested in the lifts of squat and bench press

and selected the majority of their people for that short, round build that tends

to excel in the first two lifts. They also did not hash around that they

trained using drugs and built a program it takes such aids to survive, with up

to 9 short maximal effort workouts a week....

I'd also disagree with the load you suggest, half my time is not spent with half

my 1 rep max doing bench or squat (that is unproductive weight loads even 8-10

reps usually unless you've been off from meets for quite some time..). I've

discarded both " speed workouts " on those exercises as being too rough on joints

for a drug free athlete with fairly long arms in bench in particular....it's

more productive for me to do the lifts once a week, with a possible DL partial

thrown in with squat for assist work. I also DL every week, not intermittently

as many who follow Dave and Louie do. I don't do box squats either....I

consider the risk far more present than a reward for me. I don't spend any time

at all on a half my max DL by the way lol. I start higher than that and grind

out 5 sets of 10 at the start of my programs.... for me, the lift that carries

the other two is my deadlift. I train THAT lift hard and to overloads, and back

the other two off to form work if need be to avoi

d the dreaded overtraining. I've found if I don't overtrain I'm still gaining

on my strength even after a full decade on the platform...in the lift that gets

the least assist from even single ply poly lol.

I can't think of anybody who uses half their max for half the program

actually.... PL tend to work with higher levels of weight over longer times than

I think most people are aware of... we're just used to the work capacity I guess

over the years. If I had to guess, I've seen a lot of work in that 70% 1 rpm

range consistently... veterans being the gauge, as newbies don't really HAVE 1

rep maxes for some time after they start!

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing lifetime drug free powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

-------------- Original message --------------

Anyone who has attended a powerlifting meet knows that most of the time

the bar moves slowly. Yet many powerlifters spend part of their time

training the squat and bench explosively (lifting about half their 1 RM

as explosively as possible). To learn more about explosive lifting for

powerlifting read the work of Louie and Dave Tate.

While HIT has been popular with athletes in the past(any type of

strength training is better than no strength training), it's primary

focus is building muscle mass not increasing athletic performance.

Most of HIT famous spokesmen were bodybuilders not athletes. Limit

yourself to just one training dogma and you will limit your results.

Everything (even superslow) has its time and its place. It's not about

what's best, but what is most appropiate at the time.

Tom Rankin

MT View, CA

USA

====================================

[Guest guest]

Rob Barrese wrote:

A second thought on the HIT comment towards athletics... Why is it that

over a dozen NFL teams and D1 college programs are still using it provided

it is such a fallacy as described in this forum?

Casler writes:

I think that as most have said, most all the athletes have and follow their

own training regimes, and many even have individual trainers.

That said, the Single Set of High Intensity training model can be used to an

advantage to those who don't require huge strength gains, and have

significant strength and athletic ability to begin with (cream of the crop).

Under these circumstances, and especially if strength training must be

incorporated under time restraints, it can be useful to apply brief, intense

training to maintain strength levels.

But make no mistake about it; It cannot offer maximum results, and will

likely be retired in the off season for a program of more volume.

Regards,

Casler

TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Systems

Century City, CA