Re: Pastured or not?

February 10, 2004

well, the birds have to get through the winter somehow. our birds are

completely free range but in the winter they do get flax meal...it would be

really cool if we raised bugs for them for the winters, but this is our

first year with chickens and we're not that far along yet. to me, it seems

that the ingredients of the feed that they get when they're not eating bugs

is the most important. if it's flaxy and organic, they yay.

At 04:57 PM 2/10/2004, you wrote:

>A co-op I belong to is considering selling eggs that they call " pastured. "

>The person who raises the hens lets them run loose on her farm all day,

>but also has " commercial layer crumbles " available to them 24/7.

>

>I have inquired as to what's in the " crumbles, " but would you consider

>these pastured? Aren't most pastured hens, cows, etc fed only grass, bugs,

>soil, etc that they eat themselves? Is there some amount of other foods

>they can have and still have the benefits of pasture-raised meat, eggs,

>and milk?

>

>Christie

February 10, 2004

>I have inquired as to what's in the " crumbles, " but would you consider these

pastured? Aren't most pastured hens, cows, etc fed only grass, bugs, soil, etc

that they eat themselves? Is there some amount of other foods they can have and

still have the benefits of pasture-raised meat, eggs, and milk?

>

>Christie

The " crumbles " don't come with an ingredient list, believe it or not. Maybe

because

they include rendered dead dairy cows and suchlike. I

You really can't have egg-laying chickens eating ONLY grass and bugs. Mine

get kefir and leftovers, but I can't rely on having enough of those either,

so they get some crumbles too. I'd like to transition to sprouted seeds and

other things that are better for them, but, I have to admit they are darn

healthy hens as it is. In any case, they will stop laying unless they have

some source of concentrated calories, usually grains or legumes. In the old

books, oats are considered the best source of food for chickens (I should

try that ... kefir soaked oats?). So much to research, so little time ...

-- Heidi

February 10, 2004

>> well, the birds have to get through the winter somehow. our birds are

completely free range but in the winter they do get flax meal...it would be

really cool if we raised bugs for them for the winters, but this is our

first year with chickens and we're not that far along yet. to me, it seems

that the ingredients of the feed that they get when they're not eating bugs

is the most important. if it's flaxy and organic, they yay. <<

We are in California, so I don't think this would apply to us.... we have grass

and bugs all year round here. <G>

But maybe it does, even so?

Christie

February 10, 2004

>A co-op I belong to is considering selling eggs that they call

> " pastured. " The person who raises the hens lets them run loose on

>her farm all day, but also has " commercial layer crumbles "

>available to them 24/7.

the main question i'd want to know is if she has *pasture*? or are the hens

running around on dirt? if the former, they are pastured, if the latter they

fall under " free range " but aren't *pastured* which obviously requires

pasture.

>I have inquired as to what's in the " crumbles, " but would you

>consider these pastured? Aren't most pastured hens, cows, etc fed

>only grass, bugs, soil, etc that they eat themselves? Is there

>some amount of other foods they can have and still have the

>benefits of pasture-raised meat, eggs, and milk?

i've been told by more than one grass-based chicken farmer that virtually

all commercially raised chicken is fed grains, even those that are

" pastured " . apparently, it's not economically viable to raise them on grass

and bugs alone, although you might find a non commercial farmer doing such,

for her own family's use. ruminants are different - cows/steer/sheep can be

raised on grass alone and commonly are in grass-based operations. i don't

know about goats though, which are mainly foragers, as you know.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

February 10, 2004

Thanks, Suze... I knew you'd know. <G>

Christie

February 23, 2004

Suze wrote:

> and bugs alone, although you might find a non commercial farmer

> doing such,

> for her own family's use. ruminants are different -

> cows/steer/sheep can be

> raised on grass alone and commonly are in grass-based operations.

I don't agree on the grass alone statement - cattle must have some grain in

order to have enough fat on their bodies to be tasty to consumers otherwise

they are too tough, etc.). Even Sally recognizes this - see the intro to

her beef recipes....

Naente

February 23, 2004

>> cattle must have some grain in

order to have enough fat on their bodies to be tasty to consumers otherwise

they are too tough, etc <<

I buy 100 percent grass fed beef and it's tender and tasty. This is just not

true.

Christie

February 23, 2004

>Suze wrote:

>

>> and bugs alone, although you might find a non commercial farmer

>> doing such,

>> for her own family's use. ruminants are different -

>> cows/steer/sheep can be

>> raised on grass alone and commonly are in grass-based operations.

>

>I don't agree on the grass alone statement - cattle must have some grain in

>order to have enough fat on their bodies to be tasty to consumers otherwise

>they are too tough, etc.). Even Sally recognizes this - see the intro to

>her beef recipes....

>

>Naente

I beg to differ ... I recently bought a totally grass fed steer and it is

WONDERFUL.

I've been feeding it to " normal people " and they agree. This steer was 6 years

old (which is old, by steer standards) and not a bit tough. I don't pretend

to know all the variables, but I was there at killing time and there was no

grain

it it's stomachs. Also no fat on the exterior of the carcass. But it really does

taste better than anything I've gotten at Ruth's Steakhouse.

-- Heidi Jean

February 23, 2004

@@@@@@@@@

> I don't agree on the grass alone statement - cattle must have some

grain in

> order to have enough fat on their bodies to be tasty to consumers

otherwise

> they are too tough, etc.). Even Sally recognizes this - see the

intro to

> her beef recipes....

>

> Naente

@@@@@@@@@@@@

I find this statement completely absurd and counter to the crucial

ideological currents of the WAPF/NT community. I have never once

purchased beef that wasn't 100% grass-fed and I didn't grow up eating

any steak, so I don't have much to compare to, but I've eaten a lot

of 100% grass-fed beef that was like candy that melted in my mouth

and didn't even require chewing. Most cuts have both tender and

tough fractions, but overall I have had no issues with toughness and

the flavor has always been superb. I always eat it raw.

Personally I have no interest in unnatural breeds of ruminants that

produce marbled muscle meat, and would prefer wild meats at all times

if it were a practial option. Our species did quite well on non-

marbled, grain-free ruminant meat for countless millenia. I have

eaten raw deer meat that was as tender as any other meat I've ever

eaten.

If a particular animal in a particular situation requires grain, that

only reflects the compromised agricultural conditions of that

farmer's practice.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

February 23, 2004

as a side note, i talked with the woman who i have gotten raw butter from.

Her cows get a little bit of grain because she said some of them simply lose

too much weight otherwise and she would have to get rid of them. others

don't seem to need it. i wonder what is going on.

Elaine

February 24, 2004

At 12:18 AM 2/24/2004, you wrote:

>I don't agree on the grass alone statement - cattle must have some grain in

>order to have enough fat on their bodies to be tasty to consumers otherwise

>they are too tough, etc.). Even Sally recognizes this - see the intro to

>her beef recipes....

>

>Naente

respectfully, this is complete quatsch.

i've been eating grassfed and only grassfed beef for years and i guarantee

you it is not tough. my roasts practically fall apart, my steaks are tender

and juicy, and often i don't even bother to marinate. this has held through

on multiple breeds of beef too, so we can't even chalk it up to breed.

-katja

February 24, 2004

:

>as a side note, i talked with the woman who i have gotten raw butter from.

>Her cows get a little bit of grain because she said some of them simply lose

>too much weight otherwise and she would have to get rid of them. others

>don't seem to need it. i wonder what is going on.

>Elaine

Modern milk cows (like modern chickens) are genetic freaks ... both produce WAY

TOO MUCH

for their native diet to support. A wild bird doesn't produce an egg a day, and

a

wild cow doesn't produce 25 gallons of milk a day. Goats aren't so overbred

though,

they give milk on mainly grass.

-- Heidi Jean

February 24, 2004

Not to long ago i was at a local Saturday market. I noticed a lady standing

in a booth that sold various cuts of beef. I asked if the meat was grain

finished or not. Her reply astounded me. She said that Oh, yes. Of course

it was grain finished. That was what made the meat all stick together. : )

How it held it onto the bone. I had visions of cows not being able to

support themselves.

Kathy A.

February 24, 2004

> Not to long ago i was at a local Saturday market. I noticed a lady

> standing

> in a booth that sold various cuts of beef. I asked if the meat was

> grain

> finished or not. Her reply astounded me. She said that Oh, yes. Of

> course

> it was grain finished. That was what made the meat all stick together.

> : )

> How it held it onto the bone. I had visions of cows not being able to

> support themselves.

I had an argument with a gal on my website who is a rancher; all I was

trying to do was let her know there was a growing market for

grass-finished beef--up to her what to do with that info--and she

treated me as if I were telling her I was gonna take her guns away and

send her children to Berkeley. sheesh! Can some of you

conservative-type people get the word out among your kith and kin that

NT- or even healthy-style eating isn't just for us hippies any more?

Lynn S.

February 25, 2004

Katja wrote:

Katja -

> respectfully, this is complete quatsch.

> i've been eating grassfed and only grassfed beef for years and i

> guarantee

> you it is not tough. my roasts practically fall apart, my steaks

> are tender

> and juicy, and often i don't even bother to marinate. this has

> held through

> on multiple breeds of beef too, so we can't even chalk it up to breed.

Interesting - my dad is a cattle farmer and I guess I'd been brainwashed to

think that cattle had to at least be finished on grain....thanks for

" setting me straight " . Good thing no one took what I wrote to me true, I

wouldn't give any credit to someone who couldn't even correctly type their

name <grin>! I noticed that on the original post I was typing quickly and

misspelled my name. Argh! How embarassing. Anyone, I am glad I posted, in

any event - otherwise I'd still be believing what I originally

wrote.......love this group!

Send me testimonials about how tender the 100% grass-fed beef is...I'd like

to forward those to my dad.

Nanette

> -katja

>

February 25, 2004

At 09:42 AM 2/25/2004, you wrote:

>Interesting - my dad is a cattle farmer and I guess I'd been brainwashed to

>think that cattle had to at least be finished on grain....thanks for

> " setting me straight " . Good thing no one took what I wrote to me true, I

>wouldn't give any credit to someone who couldn't even correctly type their

>name <grin>! I noticed that on the original post I was typing quickly and

>misspelled my name. Argh! How embarassing. Anyone, I am glad I posted, in

>any event - otherwise I'd still be believing what I originally

>wrote.......love this group!

>

>Send me testimonials about how tender the 100% grass-fed beef is...I'd like

>to forward those to my dad.

>

>Nanette

heehee.

i grew up with cattle too - but if there's one thing i've learned, it's

question EVERYTHING. it's just so much easier that way

March 22, 2004

Nanette,

Pastured beef will be very low in fat and tending toward tough if it is

butchered too young. I had some grass-fed beef like that (a quarter), which made

great hamburger, but somewhat tough steaks. When I talked to the farmer the next

year and he admitted that he was learning and realized he needed to keep the

cattle on pasture longer before sending to the butcher.

Peace,