Re: Re: POLITICS: OT: Sex, love and reproduction --Chris

[Guest guest]

>Heidi,

>

>Not to open another can or worms here.Going back to an opening point of this

>thread. It was brought up the more male children in Irish families the

>higher likelihood the last born males could be homosexual. Having been

>brought up Catholic in Massachusetts where the priest, juvenile male sexual

>assault scandals began and were most numerous am wondering since if the

>research stemmed from the theory that many of the priests involved are Irish

>with youngest put into the priesthood as mentioned.

I'm not sure what *prompted* the research but it was a large epidemiological

study.

They were basically looking for patterns in homosexuality.

I'd heard of that pattern ... and actually, it makes a lot of sense (though

I don't think anyone will admit to it). If a person lived in a homophobic

society, *not* getting married is seen as weird anyway, so becoming

a priest makes a lot of sense (you get to hang out with other guys,

don't have to get into a sham marriage, and get status, and maybe

wearing a robe has some appeal too).

> Boston has a large,

>quite strong, religiously connected Irish population. Immigration began from

>the potato famine.

>

>In contrast, is Canada there has been dissolution through different claims

>against the Catholic Church there where it is a French Catholic base. Church

>there ran the schools to convert the First Nations, Canadian equivalent of

>our Native Americans, children and have become bankrupt in some areas due to

>lawsuits for physical and mental abuse of the children during their

>operation. Both priests and nuns here. French do the opposite of Irish

>putting eldest son into priesthood. Food for thought, observation and no

>offense intended with this.

My Mom went to a Catholic school and regaled us with stories of cruelty too ...

though nothing about sexual issues. Are you saying the Canadian church has more

issues with cruelty, less with sexual abuse? That would be an intersting pattern

....

firstborn kids tend to be more bossy anyway and I wonder if that translates into

more aggressive behavior in some situations.

However, I'm not sure this relates purely to Catholic schools ... British

private

schools in general were noted for sometimes having abusive behavior, and a

certain

private school I know of had some strangenesses too (not related to any

religion).

I think some people get attracted to teaching who really SHOULDN'T be teaching.

It's a good argument for oversight and openness ...

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>> makes the case that there is a biological basis for *morality* which

>> is in absolute disagreement with most religions, which hold that morality

>> is somehow absolute. For instance, the injunction against " fornication "

>> makes a lot of sense from a biological point of view (unwanted kids, STD's).

>> But if you can show that homosexuality is biological, then you have the

>> NEED to have a " new morality " to handle that case, since our current

>> morality

>> does not take that group of people into account.

>

>I didn't read the article, but this is a non-sequitor. There is evidence for

>a genetic basis for psychopathy. Only a moronic morality would conclude on

>that basis that pscyhopathy is therefore moral.

>

>Chris

You might need to read the article for it to make sense. He argues that

when you HAVE morality, there is probably a reason for it, not the other

way around as you stated it. I.e. we *have*

a morality that says:

" people should not act psychopathic "

*because*

" psychopaths generally are hurtful to society " --

regardless of genetics involved. In fact our morality often does go

against our desires, but when it does so, it tends to keep the

desires that cause us harm in check. (and sometimes " morality "

itself seems to become a little psychopathic, as during the

McCarthy era or under the Nazis or in the Salem witch trials).

Now could make the argument, based on that, that since

we have a morality against homosexuality, that homosexuality is

probably harmful in some sense ... but actually, for most of history

there *hasn't* been a very strong morality agains homosexuality

(it's been one of the " wink wink nudge nudge " things, not a " burn 'em

at the stake " things).

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

> My Mom went to a Catholic school and regaled us with stories of cruelty

too ...

> though nothing about sexual issues. Are you saying the Canadian church has

more

> issues with cruelty, less with sexual abuse?

Yes, cruel treatment for speaking Native language and any other rule

breaking. If there was sexual abuse it wasn't the majority of the abuse

charges. Not much different actually than U.S. Indian boarding schools or

any school, church or home sometimes in our parents generation back. Seems

like it was acceptable then for any adult anywhere a child was to physically

punish anyone's child. At the end of elementary school for me it became

uncool anymore for a teacher to do such. Parents spoke up and said it

wouldn't be allowed anymore. Hopefully humanity is realizing at least to an

end to physical abuse. Fortunately, we didn't have the money for me to go to

Catholic school. Knuckle rapping with ruler edge in catechism from the nuns

was the extent of cruelty I received for looking out the window, outside is

where I wanted to be, instead of at the blackboard.

>That would be an intersting pattern ...

> firstborn kids tend to be more bossy anyway and I wonder if that

translates into

> more aggressive behavior in some situations.

Am firstborn and was watching brothers and sister while Mom worked after

school at 10, making supper too. You don't choose being the firstborn. Think

it chooses you sometimes. Even with Moms staying home the eldest gets

responsibilties with other siblings, chores and is the one most is expected

from or is passed onto.

Wanita