Guest guest Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 In a message dated 2/18/04 5:42:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Idol@... writes: > Well, pasteurized or no, they're still bound to be microfiltered. Actually, unfiltered beers are becoming pretty widly available, and I always drink them when offered. That said, does microfiltering remove nutrition? Obviously yeasts are many times larger than any vitmamins or minerals, and probably any phytochemicals. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Chris- >Mostly I've asked microbreweries, but I just >asked Harpoon, which is very widely available, and they said they use no >pasteurization, and " very few craft brewers do, because the equipment is so >expensive. " Well, pasteurized or no, they're still bound to be microfiltered. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 I saw something on TV recently from a microbrewery in Australia. Unfortunately I missed the beginning and they did not repeat the name! What I did read was the place was very very concerned with brewing their beer traditionally for its vitamin content ( they used all organic ingredient to ) I remember they noted temperatures and not killing good bugs ect I am still trying to track em down for more information. _____ From: ChrisMasterjohn@... [mailto:ChrisMasterjohn@...] Sent: Thursday, 19 February 2004 8:46 AM Subject: Re: pasteurized beer? In a message dated 2/18/04 5:42:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Idol@... writes: > Well, pasteurized or no, they're still bound to be microfiltered. Actually, unfiltered beers are becoming pretty widly available, and I always drink them when offered. That said, does microfiltering remove nutrition? Obviously yeasts are many times larger than any vitmamins or minerals, and probably any phytochemicals. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 I too have questioned the issue of pasteurization in beers. I believe most high quality bottled microbrews are not. Harpoon, while widely available, is still a small scale microbrew. Look for the term " bottle-conditioned " A good " live " beer should age (for the better) in the bottle, and have a bottling date. Microfiltration is another issue. I would say yes, it does remove some nutrition but certainly not all. I personally like to see a cloudy beer full of yeast. This is what would allow it to mature even further. The very finest beers I have seen are from Belgium, and are packaged more like wine and champagne. England is also very reputable for quality beers. As for draught beers, many breweries offer their own brew in barrel conditioned kegs. Also, it is rather simple to brew your own, though they might not compare to the greats from Belgium and England! -Terry ---- Original Message ----- From: <ChrisMasterjohn@...> < > Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 5:45 PM Subject: Re: pasteurized beer? > In a message dated 2/18/04 5:42:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Idol@... writes: > > > Well, pasteurized or no, they're still bound to be microfiltered. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 >>Mostly I've asked microbreweries, but I just >>asked Harpoon, which is very widely available, and they said they use no >>pasteurization, and " very few craft brewers do, because the >equipment is so >>expensive. " my understanding is that the *initial* grain mash (don't know the proper term for it) is *always* cooked. so all beer starts out with " pasteurized " grain. from there it may or may not be pasteurized during subsequent stages of production. i prefer bottle conditioned beer, which seems to be the most nutritious of all, if i understand correctly, as it goes through multiple fermentations until the time you drink it, and is not heated again at all. after that, unpasteurized and unfiltered would be next best, then simply unfiltered (or unpasteurized, if there is such a thing as unpasteurized, but not unfiltered). my favorite beer to date is dogfish head bottle conditioned IPA. It's available nationally i think, as i saw it in seattle when i was visiting michael, and is also available here in maine. Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine http://www.westonaprice.org ---------------------------- " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " -- Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher. The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics <http://www.thincs.org> ---------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Chris- >That said, does microfiltering remove nutrition? >Obviously yeasts are many times larger than any vitmamins or minerals, and >probably any phytochemicals. Microfiltration lowers the nutrient content of beer in two ways: first, by eliminating large amounts of matter including yeast (and the clumps of nutritious matter yeasts have glommed onto), and second by eliminating the yeast organisms themselves so that no further fermentation can take place. What's left is, in sense, pasteurized without heat. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 In a message dated 2/18/04 7:11:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, s.fisher22@... writes: > my understanding is that the *initial* grain mash (don't know the proper > term for it) is *always* cooked. I did get the impression from something I read, but then I wasn't so sure when I read something else that seemed to indicate sometimes it's sprouted rather than cooked. In any case, I'm not sure that *every* grain is cooked. I might be wrong, but I think it's specifically the barley that is heated to malt it. so all beer starts out with " pasteurized " > grain. from there it may or may not be pasteurized during subsequent stages > of production. i prefer bottle conditioned beer, which seems to be the most > nutritious of all, if i understand correctly, as it goes through multiple > fermentations until the time you drink it, and is not heated again at all. > after that, unpasteurized and unfiltered would be next best, then simply > unfiltered (or unpasteurized, if there is such a thing as unpasteurized, but > not unfiltered). What's the difference between unfiltered and bottle-conditioned? If the yeast isn't pasteurized, and isn't filtered, and thus remains in the bottle, wouldn't that by definition be bottle-conditioned? How could the yeast remain in the bottle without further fermenting the drink? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 One further note on this topic. Some beers, like those brewed by Belgian monks, are spontaneously fermented. The vats are open to the air picking up many wild microorganisms either in the air or barn or whatever. This fermentation by a wide range of wild microorganisms is likely to produce a much wider range of beneficial substances in the beer than the single strains of yeast added to modern brews. These beers are usually not filtered either and are aged much longer, and are about the best tasting things I can imagine. The downside is the cost of course. > In a message dated 2/18/04 5:42:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Idol@c... writes: > > > Well, pasteurized or no, they're still bound to be microfiltered. > > Actually, unfiltered beers are becoming pretty widly available, and I always > drink them when offered. That said, does microfiltering remove nutrition? > Obviously yeasts are many times larger than any vitmamins or minerals, and > probably any phytochemicals. > > Chris > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 If I remember the process correctly… Initially the grain is cooked to malt the barley. Some beers are made with unmalted grains, like wheat beers. The barley is then crushed and steeped in hot water for a period of time like 90 minutes. The liquid, called wort, is then drained off and boiled with the hops for a period of time. Then the liquid is cooled and the yeast is added and fermented. Lagers are fermented at cold temps, ales are warmer temps. After fermentation the beer can be filtered and put in bottles. If the beer is put in a bottle without being filtered it will continue to ferment in the bottle, called bottled conditioned, but it is cloudy and has sediment which is unappealing to many people. If the beer has not been filtered and heated after the fermentation process I would consider it raw and unpasteurized beer. This is the basic process of course there can be secondary fermentations and other ingredients added rather than just grain, water, yeast, and hops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 >One further note on this topic. Some beers, like those brewed by >Belgian monks, are spontaneously fermented. The vats are open to the >air picking up many wild microorganisms either in the air or barn or >whatever. This fermentation by a wide range of wild microorganisms >is likely to produce a much wider range of beneficial substances in >the beer than the single strains of yeast added to modern brews. >These beers are usually not filtered either and are aged much longer, >and are about the best tasting things I can imagine. The downside is >the cost of course. However, if you don't have a monk handy, you can also use an " extra " kefir grain in some wort (wort = boiled malt and hops) or juice (apple cider) or a mix of the two. That's how I make my " kefir beer " which has a lot in common with lambic ale (both are lacto-fermented AND yeast fermented). The monks happen to have the right bacterial mix in the air to make good lambic ale, and who knows, your house may have such a mix too, but the kefir grains are an easy way to get a good culture. -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 >I did get the impression from something I read, but then I wasn't so sure >when I read something else that seemed to indicate sometimes it's sprouted rather >than cooked. In any case, I'm not sure that *every* grain is cooked. I >might be wrong, but I think it's specifically the barley that is heated to malt >it. Beer is made from malt, which is made from sprouted grain (barley usually, but sorghum and rice are used too). The grains are sprouted then dried, then made into a syrup. It's decidedly not " raw " in any sense. The syrup is then boiled with water and hops. The hops have to be boiled to get their essense out ... kind of like brewing coffee. Roasted barley is also " brewed " in the mix. > >What's the difference between unfiltered and bottle-conditioned? If the >yeast isn't pasteurized, and isn't filtered, and thus remains in the bottle, >wouldn't that by definition be bottle-conditioned? How could the yeast remain in >the bottle without further fermenting the drink? Homebrew beers are always " bottle conditioned " -- that is, you have live yeast making bubbles. The way you " stop " it is to make sure there isn't too much sugar for the yeast to eat. Usually you let it brew in big containers until the yeast stops working, then filter it, (in our case, we just " filtered " with a metal strainer .... there is a lot of gunk in the bottle after the fermenting process), then add a very measured amount of sugar-water. Then bottle it in tightly capped bottles. If you add too much sugar, you get too much pressure, but beer makers are pretty careful about this stuff. Commercial breweries use fancier filters, that can get out ALL the yeast so it won't continue fermenting in the bottle. Having live yeast in the bottle usually means the beer won't last as long at room temp. Pastuerizing it in the bottle does the same thing, but eeesh it kills the flavor. Homebrew or microbrews are SOOOO much better! (We used to make it a lot ... I will again if I can get some GF sorghum malt). -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 > However, if you don't have a monk handy, you can also use > an " extra " kefir grain in some wort (wort = boiled malt and hops) > or juice (apple cider) or a mix of the two. That's how I make > my " kefir beer " which has a lot in common with lambic ale > (both are lacto-fermented AND yeast fermented). *laughs* That must be why the only beers I've been able to drink a whole serving of were lambics! I'm going to have to get some kefir grains again. This time I'll try not to kill them! I'm finding the topic interesting as I'm having a brewing session at my house for the benefit of some SCA members. I've made cider and mead before but not ale (as I've never liked it). I'll be interested to see if anyone attending has made their own malt or if they've all just gotten the syrup. Ghislaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 > > However, if you don't have a monk handy, you can also use > an " extra " kefir grain in some wort (wort = boiled malt and hops) > or juice (apple cider) or a mix of the two. That's how I make > my " kefir beer " which has a lot in common with lambic ale > (both are lacto-fermented AND yeast fermented). > > The monks happen to have the right bacterial mix in the > air to make good lambic ale, and who knows, your house > may have such a mix too, but the kefir grains are an > easy way to get a good culture. > > -- Heidi I have read about some breweries in England that leave their vats out by the window even in the city to spontaneously ferment. Also some monks who leave the brews open in dirty barns, and insist on not cleaning them. I think these brews are likely to contain an important and beneficial class of soil based microorganisms that would be lacking in kefir. These are the special guys that would have been in traditional kim chi, century eggs, that Inuit buried fish. These types of fermented products seem very revered for their benefits. I have however fermented unpasteurized organic apple cider from a local orchard, so this would have been fermented by any organisms that would have happened to be on the skins. It came out very nice. -joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 >I have read about some breweries in England that leave their vats out >by the window even in the city to spontaneously ferment. Also some >monks who leave the brews open in dirty barns, and insist on not >cleaning them. I think these brews are likely to contain an >important and beneficial class of soil based microorganisms that >would be lacking in kefir. These are the special guys that would >have been in traditional kim chi, century eggs, that Inuit buried >fish. These types of fermented products seem very revered for their >benefits. They could very well have a special class of bacteria where they are ... they won't even dust the place for fear of disrupting the local bacteria. Point is, the bacteria in YOUR house might not taste as good as the ones in the old breweries. In the old books they talk a lot about " catching " wild yeast. They would leave flour-water out to catch the local yeast, to make a sponge. Sometimes, however, you get a really tasty one, sometimes they don't taste so good. So, if they got one that worked well, they tended to keep it around for later and pass it on to their friends. Cheeses and ales that isn't so easy to save, so the cheese and ales were made in the spots that happened to have the best-tasting micro-organisms. So cheese and ale made in once town will taste different than cheese and ale made in another town. Anyway, kefir grains are my quick-and-dirty substitute. When I make kimchi, it pretty much uses whatever bacteria came with the cabbage. >I have however fermented unpasteurized organic apple cider from a >local orchard, so this would have been fermented by any organisms >that would have happened to be on the skins. It came out very nice. Apples come with their own yeast (kind of like cabbage comes with it's own bacteria) ... really you don't need to do anything to make good cider. Actually grapes come with yeast too ... in the old days they just mashed the grapes and didn't add extra yeast (nowadays the wild yeast is killed and special strains of yeast are used). However, all the cider sold at the store is pastuerized ... and beer wort is always boiled (to get the flavor from the hops and roasted barley). My kefir-cider tastes a lot different from yeast-cider though. I haven't tried just leaving it out for " wild " bacteria -- I've had mixed results when I don't use the kefir grains (gotten mold a couple of times, or " the slimys " ). Might work at your house though ... if not, try the cow barn ;--) -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 > so all beer starts out with " pasteurized " >> grain. from there it may or may not be pasteurized during >subsequent stages >> of production. i prefer bottle conditioned beer, which seems to >be the most >> nutritious of all, if i understand correctly, as it goes through multiple >> fermentations until the time you drink it, and is not heated >again at all. >> after that, unpasteurized and unfiltered would be next best, then simply >> unfiltered (or unpasteurized, if there is such a thing as >unpasteurized, but >> not unfiltered). > >What's the difference between unfiltered and bottle-conditioned? If the >yeast isn't pasteurized, and isn't filtered, and thus remains in >the bottle, >wouldn't that by definition be bottle-conditioned? no. in unfiltered, it may be pasteurized so that the yeast ARE killed. in bottle conditioned the yeast are live. How could the >yeast remain in >the bottle without further fermenting the drink? if they're dead yeast, as may be the case with unfiltered beer, they won't, if they're live yeast (as in bottle-conditioned) they will continue fermenting. BTW, michael pointed out to me an error in my last post. i said bottle conditioned is the most nutritious, but apparently *cask* conditioned is even better than bottle conditioned because it's not chilled, thus allowing the yeast to be more active. i am no expert on this subject and have gotten most of my information from michael, who's much more informed than i am. after all, he's our resident wino, er....connoisseur ;-) Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine http://www.westonaprice.org ---------------------------- " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " -- Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher. The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics <http://www.thincs.org> ---------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 @@@@@@@@ Heidi: > In the old books they talk a lot about " catching " wild yeast. They would leave > flour-water out to catch the local yeast, to make a sponge. Sometimes, > however, you get a really tasty one, sometimes they don't taste so good. > So, if they got one that worked well, they tended to keep it around for later > and pass it on to their friends. @@@@@@@@@@@@ That sounds like fun!!! I can see my lifestyle moving in that direction... Scouting for local micro-critters... Wouldn't it cool to have a species of yeast named after you? Saccharomyces Mike? @@@@@@@@@@@ > Apples come with their own yeast (kind of like cabbage comes with it's own > bacteria) ... really you don't need to do anything to make good cider. Actually > grapes come with yeast too ... in the old days they just mashed the grapes > and didn't add extra yeast (nowadays the wild yeast is killed and special strains > of yeast are used). @@@@@@@@@@@@@ Hey, this reminds me that one of my friends was recently telling me with GREAT ENTHUSIASM about the book " The Botany of Desire " , which apparently has a section about apples that talks about cider... I gotta read this book... From the way it was described to me it sounds like your (Heidi) kind of book... You've probably already read it... Mike SE Pennsylvania Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 From: " Joe " >If I remember the process correctly. Initially the grain is cooked >to malt the barley. Some beers are made with unmalted grains, like >wheat beers. The " malting " is the sprouting of the grains. The process of sprouting creates enzymes in the grains that convert stored starch into sugars that yeast can ferment. Malted grains are used to convert the starch in other added grains as well such as wheat. I don't think any beers are made with just unmalted grains. >The barley is then crushed and steeped in hot water for >a period of time like 90 minutes. The liquid, called wort, is then >drained off and boiled with the hops for a period of time. Hops often is added at the end of the boil but not always, it is also often added to the primary fermentation container. The boiling is done to bring about the " hot break " where protein solids coagulate out of the solution. >Then the >liquid is cooled and the yeast is added and fermented. The cooling brings about the " cold break " which has the same purpose as the hot break. : -) Can you tell I've been subscribed to the home brewing list, lol. Bruce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 >Hey, this reminds me that one of my friends was recently telling me >with GREAT ENTHUSIASM about the book " The Botany of Desire " , which >apparently has a section about apples that talks about cider... I >gotta read this book... From the way it was described to me it >sounds like your (Heidi) kind of book... You've probably already >read it... > >Mike Yeah, that does sound like my kind of book ... I still have to get through several other of " my kind " of books ... ! Right now I'm in " Guns, Germs, and Steel " and the Martha Washington book of cookery (which also has a lot of tidbits about fermentation and food preservation ...). -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 In a message dated 2/19/04 9:40:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, s.fisher22@... writes: > no. in unfiltered, it may be pasteurized so that the yeast ARE killed. in > bottle conditioned the yeast are live. I've never heard of an unfiltered beer that was pasteurized. Do you know of any beer manufacturers who actually offer an unfiltered beer with dead yeast in it? > if they're dead yeast, as may be the case with unfiltered beer, they won't, > if they're live yeast (as in bottle-conditioned) they will continue > fermenting. I agree, but I'm not aware of any pastuerized unfiltered beers, and beers that list " unfiltered " but not not list " unpasteurized " on the label that I've contacted claim to be UNpasteurized. > > BTW, michael pointed out to me an error in my last post. i said bottle > conditioned is the most nutritious, but apparently *cask* conditioned is > even better than bottle conditioned because it's not chilled, thus allowing > the yeast to be more active. i am no expert on this subject and have gotten > most of my information from michael, who's much more informed than i am. > after all, he's our resident wino, er....connoisseur ;-) > I'm sure knows more than I do, but the bottle-conditioned beer I have access to is not kept chilled. Cask-conditioned is usually kept at 50F rather than 40 F, and in fact bottle conditioned beers are often kept at room temperature in the store (sometimes they are refrigerated, but not the ones sold locally here). Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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