Re: the vegan community with downs' kids

[Guest guest]

Elaine,

Pat is still alive- I just called PP after I red your post. I do remember

having a phone conversation several years back pertaining to this subject. Now

I remember LOL, but can't recall the details since we were talking about the

damages of veganism in general.

Tooth decay among nursing children is very commom from what I've seen in

people eating a general

*health food store diet*.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

Earlier someone brought up a vegan community that a high number of down's

kids. I just talked to sally fallon and asked her about it.

That info came from Pat Connelly (?) -- the community's dentist. The

community was a vegan spiritual community (andanda something) in L.A, and

Connelly was their dentist. Anyway, s/he noted a strikingly high number of

down's kids born there. That's all i know and Connelly has since died.

Sally also mentioned a dentist who saw 9 children last year whose baby teeth

were growing in rotten. All 9 children were strictly breastfed and one was a

child of a LLL leader. But she doesn't know specifically what the diets of

the mothers were.

elaine

[Guest guest]

When Gaby was getting constipated from stray proteins due to my leaky gut

syndrome, and no one(doctors, gurus, LLL) could figure out why, I

experimented and found that if I ate just oil, fruits and veggies he was

fine. I thought there was something wrong with him! Anyway, this lactation

consultant actually said - in response to my concern about inadequate

nutrients in the milk - " I believe you could consume nothing but water for

days and continue making perfect milk.

W T F!!!????

I thought it was crap then, but after everything I've been reading lately I

know exactly how far up it was piled. She wasn't the only one who told me

similar things. I knew something was missing cause when he would latch on I

would feel about to faint. Where do people get these notions about

breastmilk????? It is amazing, but you still need the raw materials to make

the stuff, you know?

Had to rant..

Michele

>From: " Elaine " <itchyink@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: the vegan community with downs' kids

>Date: 19 Feb 2004 11:45:14 -0800

>

>Earlier someone brought up a vegan community that a high number of down's

>kids. I just talked to sally fallon and asked her about it.

>

>That info came from Pat Connelly (?) -- the community's dentist. The

>community was a vegan spiritual community (andanda something) in L.A, and

>Connelly was their dentist. Anyway, s/he noted a strikingly high number of

>down's kids born there. That's all i know and Connelly has since died.

>

>Sally also mentioned a dentist who saw 9 children last year whose baby

>teeth

>were growing in rotten. All 9 children were strictly breastfed and one was

>a

>child of a LLL leader. But she doesn't know specifically what the diets of

>the mothers were.

>elaine

>

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[Guest guest]

My daughter-in-law is at the end of her second trimester. She is

overweight but consumes a SAD but nearly fat free diet. Now the

doctors are telling her she has pregnancy related diabetes and is

anemic. They've put her on iron supplements but have not made the diet

link nor given her any diet instructions. Makes me sick.

Sharon

> When Gaby was getting constipated from stray proteins due to my

leaky gut

> syndrome, and no one(doctors, gurus, LLL) could figure out why, I

> experimented and found that if I ate just oil, fruits and veggies he

was

> fine. I thought there was something wrong with him! Anyway, this

lactation

> consultant actually said - in response to my concern about inadequate

> nutrients in the milk - " I believe you could consume nothing but

water for

> days and continue making perfect milk.

>

> W T F!!!????

>

> I thought it was crap then, but after everything I've been reading

lately I

> know exactly how far up it was piled. She wasn't the only one who

told me

> similar things. I knew something was missing cause when he would

latch on I

> would feel about to faint. Where do people get these notions about

> breastmilk????? It is amazing, but you still need the raw materials

to make

> the stuff, you know?

>

> Had to rant..

>

> Michele

>

[Guest guest]

ok, it's more clear to me now. her husband was the dentist and, apparently,

he has passed away. (how awful to be thought dead when still alive!)

elaine

> this must be the same pat connolly who is the curator of the price-pottenger

> nutrition foundation? i didn't realize she was a dentist.

[Guest guest]

>Pat is still alive- I just called PP after I red your post. I do

>remember

>having a phone conversation several years back pertaining to this

>subject. Now

>I remember LOL, but can't recall the details since we were talking

>about the

>damages of veganism in general.

this must be the same pat connolly who is the curator of the price-pottenger

nutrition foundation? i didn't realize she was a dentist.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon... That must be very frustrating for you. I just pray Gaby marries

someone into their health, you know? Have you spoken to her about it? Maybe

you could give her NT as a gift? I know many people simply are not open to

changing their diets. It is not too late though, the 2nd trimester is when

the baby's brain is developing, so any added nutrition right now would be

very beneficial.

I didn't eat " NT " when I was pregnant, but I was almost all raw vegan, so

processed foods were at an extreme minimum - cravings like organic corn

chips, babaganoush, tofu, and once(the worst) tostones and french fries from

the chinese food place *shaking head* - maybe 3% of total diet if added up

over the whole pregnancy. I ate lots of almond butter - the raw kind in the

fridge -

fresh tahini dip, kale, other greens, veggies, orange juice(fresh), other

nuts, etc. My pregnancy went well, but that 3% of craving foods did me in

and totally messed up my digestion.

Funny thing is, those foods were recommended - the chips were the " guiltless

gourmet " kind - the nutritional info they gave me said 12 or more servings

of whole grains, and the menu listed foods like hummus, whole wheat pita,

baked corn chips, tofu, etc. They stressed lots of fruits/veggies, and even

some sea veggies, probably because it was a free standing birthing center,

but they stayed well within the food pyramid. They(midwives) didn't push

prenatal vitamins, which I liked, but failed to notice when I told them what

I was eating that there was NO source of Vitamin D or B12 in my diet. What

was wrong with them???!!!

I was just starting to learn about nutrition, and was still under the false

assumption that a few minutes of sun was enough to make D, and that B12 was

a myth. This led me to deficiency in B12 a few months after his birth, about

the time when I was starting to wake up from all the false information in

the raw vegan community(though there is a lot of good info as well) and the

problems with grains/legumes(which I tried eating again in response to

Gaby's constipation). I think the only thing that saved me was the 7th

month, during which I craved and ate 2lb of salmon steaks(lots of fat!) per

day.

Eating per the pyramid, low fat and vegetarian, is what made me balloon up

to 250lb at one point in my life, gave me terrible eczema, asthma, and a ton

of other ailments and diseases. When will it stop!??

Ok, I must breathe now, and continue eating my first Warrior Diet dinner.

YUM

Best Wishes

Michele

>From: " Sharon " <sharonz@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: the vegan community with downs' kids

>Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 01:01:52 -0000

>

>My daughter-in-law is at the end of her second trimester. She is

>overweight but consumes a SAD but nearly fat free diet. Now the

>doctors are telling her she has pregnancy related diabetes and is

>anemic. They've put her on iron supplements but have not made the diet

>link nor given her any diet instructions. Makes me sick.

>

>Sharon

>

>

> > When Gaby was getting constipated from stray proteins due to my

>leaky gut

> > syndrome, and no one(doctors, gurus, LLL) could figure out why, I

> > experimented and found that if I ate just oil, fruits and veggies he

>was

> > fine. I thought there was something wrong with him! Anyway, this

>lactation

> > consultant actually said - in response to my concern about inadequate

> > nutrients in the milk - " I believe you could consume nothing but

>water for

> > days and continue making perfect milk.

> >

> > W T F!!!????

> >

> > I thought it was crap then, but after everything I've been reading

>lately I

> > know exactly how far up it was piled. She wasn't the only one who

>told me

> > similar things. I knew something was missing cause when he would

>latch on I

> > would feel about to faint. Where do people get these notions about

> > breastmilk????? It is amazing, but you still need the raw materials

>to make

> > the stuff, you know?

> >

> > Had to rant..

> >

> > Michele

> >

>

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[Guest guest]

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Anyway, this lactation

> consultant actually said - in response to my concern about

inadequate

> nutrients in the milk - " I believe you could consume nothing but

water for

> days and continue making perfect milk.

>

> W T F!!!????

>

> I thought it was crap then, but after everything I've been reading

lately I

> know exactly how far up it was piled. She wasn't the only one who

told me

> similar things. I knew something was missing cause when he would

latch on I

> would feel about to faint. Where do people get these notions about

> breastmilk????? It is amazing, but you still need the raw materials

to make

> the stuff, you know?

>

> Had to rant..

>

> Michele

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Well, she said " days " , not " weeks " or " months " .

Here's something in my files pasted below that supports her view.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

-----------------------------------------

Salmenpera L, Perheentupa J, Siimes MA.

Folate nutrition is optimal in exclusively breast-fed infants but

inadequate in some of their mothers and in formula-fed infants.

J Pediatr Gastroenterol Nutr. 1986 Mar-Apr;5(2):283-9.

Plasma concentrations of folate were studied in a group of

exclusively breast-fed infants and their mothers (their numbers

gradually decreased from 200 at birth to 7 at 12 months) and in

infants completely weaned to a cow's milk formula (containing 35

micrograms of folate/L) and solid foods. The exclusively breast-fed

infants were in no danger of folate deficiency; their plasma levels

were elevated after the age of 2 months and, on average, were 2.0-3.3-

fold higher than maternal levels throughout the study. None of these

infants had an inadequate plasma concentration, whereas up to 5% of

the mothers had values less than or equal to 3 micrograms/L, despite

supplementation during lactation with 0.1 mg folate/day. In the

formula-fed infants, 69-94% of the plasma folate concentrations lay

below the lowest concentration for the breast-fed infants. Although

no infant had signs of anemia or macrocytosis in red cell indices,

the infants weaned earliest had the lowest hemoglobin concentrations

(p = 0.09) and the highest mean corpuscular volume (MCV) values (p =

0.06) at 9 months of age. Thus, an infant fed a formula containing

the recommended amount of folate runs a risk of folate deficiency.

PMID: 3958855 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

Yes, but B12 and some other stuff I can't think of needs to be supplied

daily, so it wouldbn't be " perfect " milk. Also, the folate study wasn't on

fasting moms...if the mom takes in just enough folate to supply the milk,

say 100mcg(pulled out of my, um, hat, no scientific basis for that #), the

body will give it to the baby. Kind of like how when I open a mango, all I

get is the seed and the peels, cause I give the rest to him. Ah, motherhood.

take care

Michele

>From: " Anton " <michaelantonparker@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: the vegan community with downs' kids

>Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 05:33:32 -0000

>

>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>Anyway, this lactation

> > consultant actually said - in response to my concern about

>inadequate

> > nutrients in the milk - " I believe you could consume nothing but

>water for

> > days and continue making perfect milk.

> >

> > W T F!!!????

> >

> > I thought it was crap then, but after everything I've been reading

>lately I

> > know exactly how far up it was piled. She wasn't the only one who

>told me

> > similar things. I knew something was missing cause when he would

>latch on I

> > would feel about to faint. Where do people get these notions about

> > breastmilk????? It is amazing, but you still need the raw materials

>to make

> > the stuff, you know?

> >

> > Had to rant..

> >

> > Michele

>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>

>Well, she said " days " , not " weeks " or " months " .

>Here's something in my files pasted below that supports her view.

>

>Mike

>SE Pennsylvania

>

>-----------------------------------------

>Salmenpera L, Perheentupa J, Siimes MA.

>Folate nutrition is optimal in exclusively breast-fed infants but

>inadequate in some of their mothers and in formula-fed infants.

>J Pediatr Gastroenterol Nutr. 1986 Mar-Apr;5(2):283-9.

>

>Plasma concentrations of folate were studied in a group of

>exclusively breast-fed infants and their mothers (their numbers

>gradually decreased from 200 at birth to 7 at 12 months) and in

>infants completely weaned to a cow's milk formula (containing 35

>micrograms of folate/L) and solid foods. The exclusively breast-fed

>infants were in no danger of folate deficiency; their plasma levels

>were elevated after the age of 2 months and, on average, were 2.0-3.3-

>fold higher than maternal levels throughout the study. None of these

>infants had an inadequate plasma concentration, whereas up to 5% of

>the mothers had values less than or equal to 3 micrograms/L, despite

>supplementation during lactation with 0.1 mg folate/day. In the

>formula-fed infants, 69-94% of the plasma folate concentrations lay

>below the lowest concentration for the breast-fed infants. Although

>no infant had signs of anemia or macrocytosis in red cell indices,

>the infants weaned earliest had the lowest hemoglobin concentrations

>(p = 0.09) and the highest mean corpuscular volume (MCV) values (p =

>0.06) at 9 months of age. Thus, an infant fed a formula containing

>the recommended amount of folate runs a risk of folate deficiency.

>

>PMID: 3958855 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

>

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[Guest guest]

>Yes, but B12 and some other stuff I can't think of needs to be supplied

>daily, so it wouldbn't be " perfect " milk.

actually, b-12 can be stored for years in the liver, depending on how much

one consumed.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

I have read that while B12 can be stored, breastmilk only uses what is

provided daily. I'll have to double check it, but that's what I've seen in

several places.

best wishes

Michele

>From: " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: RE: the vegan community with downs' kids

>Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:09:39 -0500

>

> >Yes, but B12 and some other stuff I can't think of needs to be supplied

> >daily, so it wouldbn't be " perfect " milk.

>

>actually, b-12 can be stored for years in the liver, depending on how much

>one consumed.

>

>Suze Fisher

>Lapdog Design, Inc.

>Web Design & Development

>http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

>Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

>http://www.westonaprice.org

>

>----------------------------

>“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

>heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

>Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

>University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

>The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

><http://www.thincs.org>

>----------------------------

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

> Hi Sharon... That must be very frustrating for you. I just pray Gaby

marries

> someone into their health, you know? Have you spoken to her about it?

Today I did ask her, in a vague way, what kind of recommendations they

gave her for a diet. Here's what she said: " if i am diabetic, of

course then i will be placed on a diabetic diet for the remainder of

the preganancy. hopefully will find out early next week. as for now

she wants me on high protein and skim milk. so have been doing that

for awhile now. "

I can't say anything more about it to her without starting a " family

thing " . She's so overweight, as is her 11 year old daughter. It's just

a shame that the medical community doesn't see the relationship

between low fat diets and poor health.

Sharon