Re: POLITICS - God's love letter -- was - marriage symbolic of Christ an...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/25/04 7:59:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Dpdg@... writes:

> With all due respect, the bible is the creation of a 'creative copywriter'

> to advance an ideological agenda.... The book of genesis, in particular, is

> a re-hash of much more ancient Middle-Eastern mythologies from places like

> Mesopotamia, [sumeria & Babylon], Egypt Canaan and Ugarit [present day Syria].

>

> Most people DO NOT want to know these facts as it 'shakes their

> foundations'... I've heard this on numerous occasions from people for whom

faith is more

> important than facts.

I've never seen any compelling evidence that Babylonian myths are " earlier "

than Hebrew ones. They clearly came from oral tradition before being written,

so a Babylonian stone slab dating earlier than written Hebrew text is no

indication of an earlier oral origin of the story.

Sumerian? Are you joking? The sumerian creation myths bearing nothing in

common with Genesis.

Chris

[Guest guest]

<<Sumerian? Are you joking? The sumerian creation myths bearing nothing in

common with Genesis.>>

Chris.

No, I am not joking... Here are a few examples of Sumerian myths as found in

the book of Genesis.

As in Genesis, the Sumerians world is formed out of the watery abyss and the

heavens and earth are divinely separated from one another by a solid dome. Eden,

[paradise] is similar to the Sumerian Dilmun, described in the myth of 'Enki'

and Ninhursag'. Dilmun is a pure, bright, and sacred place [geographically

identified with Bahrain in the Persian Gulf]. It is blessed by Enki to have

overflowing, sweet water. Eden, 'in the East' [Gen.2:8] has a river which also

'rises' or overflows, to form four rivers including the Tigris and Euphrates. It

too is lush and has fruit bearing trees. [Gen.2:9-10]

In the second version of the creation of man " The Lord God formed man out of the

clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man

became a living being. " Enki and Ninmah [Ninhursag] use a similar method in

creating man.

A parallel with the creation of Eve is found in 'Ninti', whose name means the

lady of the rib, or she who makes live. Eve, as you might recall, is fashioned

from Adam's rib and is named Chava [female form of Cha'im', 'life' .

In the 'Epic of Gilgamesh', there's the prototype for 'the tree of knowledge of

good and evil'. [The Huluppu-Tree']. Not only does a crafty serpent reside in

this tree, but according to some interpreters, the serpent was none other than a

dark maiden. [A reference to Lilith, Adam's legendary first wife who was

replaced by the more submissive Eve in later versions].

The Cain and Abel story echoes that of the disputes between the herders and the

agriculturists. [Lahar and Shnan or Enten and Emesh].

The 10, long lived, antediluvian 'patriarchs' in Genesis are based on the eight

[or 10] antediluvian kings of in the Sumerian King List who allegedly lived for

hundreds of years.

The story of 'The Flood' is the clearest parallel but I'll leave you to do the

rest of the 'homework' yourself as I'm running out of time. There are many more

parallels with Sumerian mythology and not just Genesis but even the New

Testament [check out the life of Jesus and Dumuzi/Tammuz, the shepherd-king

resurrected from the dead.]

BTW, my original post to Marla said 'The book of genesis, in particular, is a

re-hash of much more ancient Middle-Eastern mythologies..' I was NOT just

referring to the creation myth.

Dedy

[Guest guest]

Dedy,

> As in Genesis, the Sumerians world is formed out of the watery abyss and

> the heavens and earth are divinely separated from one another by a solid dome.

> Eden, [paradise] is similar to the Sumerian Dilmun, described in the myth of

> 'Enki' and Ninhursag'. Dilmun is a pure, bright, and sacred place

> [geographically identified with Bahrain in the Persian Gulf]. It is blessed by

Enki to

> have overflowing, sweet water. Eden, 'in the East' [Gen.2:8] has a river which

> also 'rises' or overflows, to form four rivers including the Tigris and

> Euphrates. It too is lush and has fruit bearing trees. [Gen.2:9-10]

This seems just silly to me. Humans have a natural affinity for myths of

former paradise, and this surfaces again and again regardless of religion or

even

atheism. For example, witness the myth of the " Noble Savage " and how it

persists among non-religious people in our culture, who believe that the

capacity

for evil is a result of modern institutions rather than human nature, even

though all evidence ever accumulated so utterly refutes this.

Obviously religious myths the world over will exhibit some similarities.

Beliefs in divine powers, lost paradises, etc will be found essentially

universally. The Sumerian myths bear no resemblance to Genesis in terms of

theology or

overall paradigm, and they don't have any more similar details than you'd

expect to find by random chance.

>

> In the second version of the creation of man " The Lord God formed man out of

> the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so

> man became a living being. " Enki and Ninmah [Ninhursag] use a similar method

> in creating man.

> A parallel with the creation of Eve is found in 'Ninti', whose name means

> the lady of the rib, or she who makes live. Eve, as you might recall, is

> fashioned from Adam's rib and is named Chava [female form of Cha'im', 'life'

..

Ok, if both stories have a woman fashioned from a man's rib that indicates

influence of one over the other, I admit.

> In the 'Epic of Gilgamesh', there's the prototype for 'the tree of

> knowledge of good and evil'. [The Huluppu-Tree']. Not only does a crafty

serpent

> reside in this tree, but according to some interpreters, the serpent was none

> other than a dark maiden. [A reference to Lilith, Adam's legendary first wife

> who was replaced by the more submissive Eve in later versions].

It's been a while since I've read the Epic of Gilgamesh but I don't recall

noticing any such similarities.

> The Cain and Abel story echoes that of the disputes between the herders and

> the agriculturists. [Lahar and Shnan or Enten and Emesh].

Silliness again. Modern anthropologists recognize the same conflict.

> The 10, long lived, antediluvian 'patriarchs' in Genesis are based on the

> eight [or 10] antediluvian kings of in the Sumerian King List who allegedly

> lived for hundreds of years.

So you claim, with no evidence. There are hundreds of flood myths found all

over the world. The patriarchs of genesis do not resemble " kings " very much,

so even to claim influence here is lacking evidence. Granted, we'd expect

close societies to influence each other anyway, in which case we really have no

basis to determine which myths developed first in oral stages.

>

> The story of 'The Flood' is the clearest parallel but I'll leave you to do

> the rest of the 'homework' yourself as I'm running out of time. There are many

> more parallels with Sumerian mythology and not just Genesis but even the New

> Testament [check out the life of Jesus and Dumuzi/Tammuz, the shepherd-king

> resurrected from the dead.]

Right. But there are much closer parallels between the flood and, say,

Aleutian flood myths, than there are between Hebrew and Sumerian. The story of

the

flood is so widespread it is fascinating, but the Sumerian and Hebrew

versions bear no unqiuely striking similarities within those flood myths.

>

> BTW, my original post to Marla said 'The book of genesis, in particular, is

> a re-hash of much more ancient Middle-Eastern mythologies..' I was NOT just

> referring to the creation myth.

You're right; I apologize for misrepresenting your statement.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/26/04 6:57:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Dpdg@... writes:

> <<The Sumerian myths bear no resemblance to Genesis in terms of theology or

> overall paradigm, and they don't have any more similar details than you'd

> expect to find by random chance.>>

>

>

> I guess this is another example of 'moving the goal posts'...

>

> I was referring to the NARRATIVE similarities NOT the ideological or

> theological content of ancient Near-Eastern mythologies...

I meant my comment to be about both. You seem to clearly know much more

about the subject than me, but I don't think many of the narrative similarities

you bring up are more than what you'd expect from random chance, with the

exception of the rib thing. I was making an additional comment about why I

thought

they were dissimilar.

> Sumerian culture [and writing] predates that of the Israelites by more than

> a thousand years.

The writing does, but how do you know that the " culture " does?

Chris

[Guest guest]

<<The Sumerian myths bear no resemblance to Genesis in terms of theology or

overall paradigm, and they don't have any more similar details than you'd expect

to find by random chance.>>

I guess this is another example of 'moving the goal posts'...

I was referring to the NARRATIVE similarities NOT the ideological or theological

content of ancient Near-Eastern mythologies...

Sumerian culture [and writing] predates that of the Israelites by more than a

thousand years.

Dedy

[Guest guest]

> Sumerian culture [and writing] predates that of the Israelites by more than >

a thousand years.

<<The writing does, but how do you know that the " culture " does?>>

I know because I've been doing my 'homework' on the subject for, on and off, 30

odd years.

Methinks you've got some catching up to do... :-)

Dedy