RE: Fermenting: Jar weights, anyone? Sauerkraut

[Guest guest]

******

I'll send you recipes free ... but how did it fail?

-- Heidi Jean

******

Well, I read several instructions, including some on WAPF.org, so I only

ended up fermenting four days. Maybe not enough? It stank bad, and I like

sauerkraut quite well, so it was a nasty bad smell. I only made a small

quantity with a mason jar, plastic lid cut to fit inside and then a weight.

Oh, I kept a lid on tight per WAPF.org instructions. What do you think?

Deanna

- one of those computer scientists (software developer)

[Guest guest]

>Well, I read several instructions, including some on WAPF.org, so I only

>ended up fermenting four days. Maybe not enough? It stank bad, and I like

>sauerkraut quite well, so it was a nasty bad smell. I only made a small

>quantity with a mason jar, plastic lid cut to fit inside and then a weight.

>Oh, I kept a lid on tight per WAPF.org instructions. What do you think?

I don't know. I've never had it stink bad (good time not to

eat it). I only let it ferment 2 days, usually. Maybe the wrong

amount of salt ... or maybe the kraut didn't have enough

native bacteria. Did you use whey? If so, what kind of whey?

>Deanna

>- one of those computer scientists (software developer)

Heh heh ... we got a lot of smart people here ...

[Guest guest]

--- In ,

> >Deanna

> >- one of those computer scientists (software developer)

>

> Heh heh ... we got a lot of smart people here ...

hehehe. No offense anyone but the above statement made me chuckle.

Hehehe; WOW there it goes again. Dennis

[Guest guest]

> I don't know. I've never had it stink bad (good time not to

> eat it). I only let it ferment 2 days, usually. Maybe the wrong

> amount of salt ... or maybe the kraut didn't have enough

> native bacteria. Did you use whey? If so, what kind of whey?

I find it hard to believe that only two days of fermentation will

produce fully fermented sauerkraut. I use a Harsch crock (10 lbs

shredded cabbage & 5 TBSP salt), and I let it ferment a minimum of

two weeks. My latest batch sat in the crock for four months (with

saran wrap over the lid to keep the airlock from drying out), and

it's my best batch yet.

[Guest guest]

*******

Maybe the wrong amount of salt ... or maybe the kraut didn't have enough

native bacteria. Did you use whey? If so, what kind of whey?

*******

Heidi,

I used 1 head of cabbage finely grated, 1 clove of garlic minced, and 2

teaspoons of salt. I was making the kraut for in particular, and he

is on the gluten free casein free diet. So I hesitate to use whey. But

then, I have never been taught the fermentation process. What does it do to

proteins? I would be very interested in learning it. Any pointers on where

I might read about the process?

Thanks so much.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>I find it hard to believe that only two days of fermentation will

>produce fully fermented sauerkraut. I use a Harsch crock (10 lbs

>shredded cabbage & 5 TBSP salt), and I let it ferment a minimum of

>two weeks. My latest batch sat in the crock for four months (with

>saran wrap over the lid to keep the airlock from drying out), and

>it's my best batch yet.

2 days isn't enough to " fully ferment " it, I let the rest of the fermentation

happen in the fridge (at a lower temp). Kraut ferments best at 50-60 degrees,

and my kitchen is too warm, at 74. The fridge is a little colder than 50, but it

still gets a nice flavor. Ideally I'd have a " warm fridge " set at 50-60 to age

kraut and kimchi. You get a different mix of bacteria at the colder temps,

and in most fermentation books, it says to use a warm temp for 2 days,

then move the ferment to a basement (or underground) for the rest.

The " cold ferment " takes longer, but, I think it tastes better, and it stays

crisper.

Also, I can't tie up my Harsch for 4 months! How would I make all the OTHER

goodies I need to survive?

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Heidi,

>

>I used 1 head of cabbage finely grated, 1 clove of garlic minced, and 2

>teaspoons of salt. I was making the kraut for in particular, and he

>is on the gluten free casein free diet. So I hesitate to use whey. But

>then, I have never been taught the fermentation process. What does it do to

>proteins? I would be very interested in learning it. Any pointers on where

>I might read about the process?

>

>Deanna

I don't use whey myself -- I don't think it is needed. I think if it went

bad, you might need a little more salt. The Harsch recipe is (as someone

else posted) 5 Tablespoons per 10 lbs ... if your 1 head weighed 2 lbs

that would be 1 T which is pretty close. I use a little more, I think (I

don't measure much) and I also add some vinegar or kimchi juice to

make it a tad acidic. The acidic part helps a lot, I think -- it is in

many of the old recipes for lactofermenting.

However, if you want to add a " starter " , using kimchi juice

or juice from your last (good) batch of kraut avoids the whey issue.

One of the reasons I don't use whey is that it's a whole lot

easier to just pour a little kimchi juice into the batch, rather

than straining some kefir to get some.

I don't have anything definitive on how casein gets denatured

during fermenting. There are some tantalizing hints ... some folks

are using a strong sourdough ferment with wheat and find that

the sourdough ferments it enough that it disables the peptide

that causes gluten intolerant folks to react. I'm not sure

how I feel about that: I suspect if a person ONLY ate that sourdough

their whole lives they'd never become so gluten sensitive, but once

you ARE gluten sensitive I'm not sure I'd trust it. BUT ... it shows

that those nasty peptides can be and are disabled if you ferment

them enough.

Another tantalizing point ... rat pups fed casein often develop T1

diabetes, if it is fed too early. But, they don't develop it if they

are fed " hydrolyzed casein " . The casein in kefir is probably mostly

hydrolyzed, or at least denatured in other ways ... at any rate,

I don't react to it, and some Moms with autistic kids find they

can feed it to their kids -- the kefir heals the gut which is great,

and the casein in whatever form it is doesn't seem to cause

a reaction.

However, I haven't seen any *measurements* as to how hydrolyzed

kefir casein is etc. As for yogurt, I don't trust it near as much (nor

do I feel good if I eat it). Kefir has lots of different types of buggies

in it, all eating different stuff, so it's more likely to disable more stuff.

(hows that for science talk?). It's a pretty safe generalization though

that anything kefirized is safer, broken down into tinier more digestible

pieces that are less likely to cause problems -- whether they were

phytates, hormones, pesticides, or peptides. When in doubt,

kefirize!

That holds for fermentation in general ... I suppose it's your

" entropy " principle ... when bacteria eat something they are getting

energy from it, so they are breaking it into simpler and simpler

pieces. OTOH some bacteria are toxic or produce toxic waste,

so that is an exception to that generalization ...

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> I used 1 head of cabbage finely grated, 1 clove of garlic minced, and 2

> teaspoons of salt.

I wouldn't think that'd be enough salt, especially without whey or

sauerkraut/kimchi " juice " to get it started.

Lynn S.

[Guest guest]

Thanks a bunch Heidi. I don't know how good this is, but I just bought

sauerkraut and kefir from Whole Foods. No pasteurization, but may not be so

great. Bubbies was the kraut brand and Lifeways kefir with live cultures -

whoohoo. A waste of money? I shall try again with the kraut soon.

Anyway, I have saved your message for future reference. I truly appreciate

your time and highly scientific approach to this stuff

Let us know when the crocks and weights will be available.

Deanna

That holds for fermentation in general ... I suppose it's your

" entropy " principle ... when bacteria eat something they are getting

energy from it, so they are breaking it into simpler and simpler

pieces. OTOH some bacteria are toxic or produce toxic waste,

so that is an exception to that generalization ...

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Thanks a bunch Heidi. I don't know how good this is, but I just bought

>sauerkraut and kefir from Whole Foods. No pasteurization, but may not be so

>great. Bubbies was the kraut brand and Lifeways kefir with live cultures -

>whoohoo. A waste of money? I shall try again with the kraut soon.

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with " live " commercial kraut.

Or

even pastuerized, if you are going to cook it anyway. The stuff in kraut

that prevents cancer survives cooking just fine. Some of the commercial live

kimchi

I've had is superb -- I had to start making it though because at the rate

I eat it, it would break my food budget!

The " live " bottled kefir seems to be really good for people too ... I've heard

some

good stories about how it has been healing. Making your own from grains

is CHEAPER, and I think from grains it has more strains of bacteria in it.

But I wouldn't call it a waste of money. Certainly a darn sight better to buy

than say, Nacho Cheese Flavored Dip or Cheetos or Miracle Whip ... ANY

food with live lactobacilli is better than none.

Anyway, I'll get my weights done and come up with an idiot-proof

first-timer's recipe that works in one jar. I'm going to visit the

studio on Sunday, see what the prices are for working space.

I think I've decided on a design ... a little flat part with holes

in it, with a handle that sticks up. Then when you screw the lid on,

that forces the flat part to hold the solids under the brine. Maybe

made out of porcelin, that would look cool, package with a plastic

mason-jar lid and a little recipe book, sell them at health-food stores.

And make a bigger size for the kimchi-size jars ...

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

C'est magnifique! Mwwaaa Mwaaaa!

Deanna

**************

.... good stories about how it has been healing. Making your own from grains

is CHEAPER, and I think from grains it has more strains of bacteria in it.

... But I wouldn't call it a waste of money.

... Anyway, I'll get my weights done and come up with an idiot-proof

first-timer's recipe that works in one jar. ...

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> Thanks a bunch Heidi. I don't know how good this is, but I

> just bought sauerkraut and kefir from Whole Foods. No

> pasteurization, but may not be so great. Bubbies was the

> kraut brand

If that is the Bubbies kraut sold in sealed glass jars with the metal

lid sucked down, it is pasteurized. Because Bubbies kraut is in the

fridge section, a lot of people think that it must be unpasteurized.

Pasteurized Bubbies is sold here in town, and I've run into quite a

few people who mistakenly believed it to be unpasteurized.

[Guest guest]

*******

If that is the Bubbies kraut sold in sealed glass jars with the metal

lid sucked down, it is pasteurized. Because Bubbies kraut is in the

fridge section, a lot of people think that it must be unpasteurized.

Pasteurized Bubbies is sold here in town, and I've run into quite a

few people who mistakenly believed it to be unpasteurized.

*********

, thanks for the info. That's the stuff I bought. Very irksome that

they don't say " pasteurized " on the label. Live and learn.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

At 09:59 PM 2/27/2004, you wrote:

>Anyway, I'll get my weights done and come up with an idiot-proof

>first-timer's recipe that works in one jar. I'm going to visit the

>studio on Sunday, see what the prices are for working space.

>I think I've decided on a design ... a little flat part with holes

>in it, with a handle that sticks up. Then when you screw the lid on,

>that forces the flat part to hold the solids under the brine. Maybe

>made out of porcelin, that would look cool, package with a plastic

>mason-jar lid and a little recipe book, sell them at health-food stores.

heidi - i love this idea! sorry to take so long to chime in

i'd planned on buying a harsch, but there's really the conundrum of needing

several of them - having mason jar weights would fix that!

-katja

[Guest guest]

> heidi - i love this idea! sorry to take so long to chime in

> i'd planned on buying a harsch, but there's really the conundrum of

> needing

> several of them - having mason jar weights would fix that!

I've been using plastic bags filled with salt water--works great but

I'd love something like you're describing, Heidi. It'd be tidier, I

think.

Lynn S.

[Guest guest]

> And make a bigger size for the kimchi-size jars ...

Yeah, I do my kimchi in gallon jars, this'd be what I'd need...but

they're not wide-mouthed...hm! Maybe I'd best stick with the plastic

bags...

Lynn S.

[Guest guest]

>heidi - i love this idea! sorry to take so long to chime in

>i'd planned on buying a harsch, but there's really the conundrum of needing

>several of them - having mason jar weights would fix that!

>

>-katja

Thanks! My subconscious seems to be working on it overtime ... last

night I was dreaming (all night) about making little jar-weights!

Maybe part of me really wants to be a paleo-potter ...

I like the idea of having ones that fit old kimchi jars too. The kimchi

comes in half gallon and gallon sizes ... some pickles and other stuff

come in those big jars too, so they are easy to get. And easy to handle.

Now I need a name for these gizzies and some kind of decor (like,

the handle could be an animal or a veggie, a little carrot, perhaps?

Shouldn't be colored though. Anyone who comes up with the best

cute idea gets a pack free ...

-- Heidi Jean