Re: pregnancy and cultured foods

[Guest guest]

I ate plenty of brie, sushi, raw milk and raw butter during my second

pregnancy. No problems. Big strong baby. (although i did gain a lot of

weight) Wasn't yet eating fermented veggies though.

Elaine

> Hi All, just wondering if any of you mamas out there who have been

> eating cultured foods, fermented foods know if there are any dietary

> prohibitions against eating any of these foods during pregnancy?

[Guest guest]

>I know I am being vague, but you get the idea--we have recently

>gotten into making kimchee and sauerkraut (which I love!). Also

>might have a pregnancy in the works (emphasis on might, not certain

>yet), and as I was packing cabbage, leeks, carrots, and shallots

>into a crock tonight, it made me wonder.

>

>Thanks, Leann

The reason " they " are against Brie is because of Listeria, which on some

occasions has been found in some soft cheeses. When you are preggers,

your immune system downshifts and doesn't fight bacteria as well

as usual.

That said, if the cheese is REALLY ripe, the Listeria dies. Also few people

get Listeria if they have a robust gut community. The cases of Listeria

seem to mostly be in less-ripened cheeses. However, a more common

cause of it (that the docs won't mention) is reheated restaurant food

or sometimes home leftovers. So ... if you reheat leftovers, heat them

NICE AND HOT (on the stove til bubbling, not in the microwave!).

As for kimchi .. I looked all over for cases of food poisoning from

it ... and asked some Koreans, who gave me blank looks (like I'd asked

if kimchi could fly ...). The bacteria that cause problems almost never

can live in an acidic environment, and kimchi has a lot of natural antibiotics

other than the lactic acid (they are studying it to create new food additives).

There have been cases of botulism from fermented fish, and smoked fish

in plastic wrap, but I don't know enough about that to say what the cause was

(I do put fish in kimchi, but pulverized ... the main issue seems to be if the

salt/acid don't permeate the fish completely).

Now, if you ask ME what to avoid while pregnant .. I'd say GRAINS, esp.

wheat, barley, rye. And I'd eat lots of steak and liver, and whole dried

fish ... sweet potatoes ... butter ...

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Hi Leann,

It is not the culture which would do the harm(notice there are no warnings

against yogurt), it is the possibility of unfriendly bacteria " they " are

worried about. I think pregnancy is a very important time to consume

cultured foods, as progesterone proliferates yeast, so it is importance to

keep the intake of friendly bacteria high so that one can have a nicely

balanced birth canal and breastmilk for the baby(you are how he/she will get

his/her flora). I had no source of friendly bacteria, and it was part of

what caused my health to decline, but I know for next time.

Sincerely,

Michele

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[Guest guest]

> Hi All, just wondering if any of you mamas out there who have been

> eating cultured foods, fermented foods know if there are any

dietary

> prohibitions against eating any of these foods during pregnancy?

>

> Here in the US (understanding some folks are living in other

> countries, and definitely appreciating your experiences!), most

> pregnant women are warned against eating soft cheeses like brie,

and

> a couple of other items, apparantly the culture has some negative

> health effect.

>

> I know I am being vague, but you get the idea--we have recently

> gotten into making kimchee and sauerkraut (which I love!). Also

> might have a pregnancy in the works (emphasis on might, not certain

> yet), and as I was packing cabbage, leeks, carrots, and shallots

> into a crock tonight, it made me wonder.

>

> Thanks, Leann

Hello, When my wife was pregnant she ate at least two cups of

homemade yogurtfrom raw milk a day. We didn't know much about

fermented foods at the time. Our baby didn't have colic or other

digestive problems which seem to be so common. I suspect it because

she had plenty of good bacteria to introduce to our son during his

first feedings.

[Guest guest]

hey -

it's not the culture that is the reason they tell you not to eat it - it's

because soft cheeses are frequently not pasteurized and that causes the big

health industry to get a big squeamish.

if you have a good source for high quality soft cheese, then munch it up!!

-katja

>Here in the US (understanding some folks are living in other

>countries, and definitely appreciating your experiences!), most

>pregnant women are warned against eating soft cheeses like brie, and

>a couple of other items, apparantly the culture has some negative

>health effect.

[Guest guest]

> hey -

> it's not the culture that is the reason they tell you not to eat

it - it's

> because soft cheeses are frequently not pasteurized and that causes

the big

> health industry to get a big squeamish.

> if you have a good source for high quality soft cheese, then munch

it up!!

> -katja

That surprises me. Do you mean that the cheese itself isn't

pasturized? In order to sell raw milk cheeses in the states they

have to have been aged for at least 60 days, which I'm pretty sure is

too long for Brie. A lot of cheeses can't be imported into the

states because of this. (Though I've heard it done where the store

labeled the cheese with a sign that said something like " Raw milk

cheese, illegal, buy it before the feds find out! " ) Any Brie or soft

cheese sold here will be made with pasturized milk anyway. Raw milk

hard cheeses are aged over 60 days so they are allowed.

Ghislaine

[Guest guest]

>

>That surprises me. Do you mean that the cheese itself isn't

>pasturized? In order to sell raw milk cheeses in the states they

>have to have been aged for at least 60 days, which I'm pretty sure is

>too long for Brie. A lot of cheeses can't be imported into the

>states because of this. (Though I've heard it done where the store

>labeled the cheese with a sign that said something like " Raw milk

>cheese, illegal, buy it before the feds find out! " ) Any Brie or soft

>cheese sold here will be made with pasturized milk anyway. Raw milk

>hard cheeses are aged over 60 days so they are allowed.

yeah, but how do all those doctors know whether or not 60 days really

killed all the crap, blah blah...

also, someone else noted about the listeria - that's the part i couldn't

remember.

whee!

[Guest guest]

At 07:58 AM 2/23/2004, you wrote:

>! Any Brie or soft

>>cheese sold here will be made with pasturized milk anyway. Raw milk

>>hard cheeses are aged over 60 days so they are allowed.

The last batch of listeria-laced cheese WAS made with pastuerized

milk, it was Mexican soft cheese. The issue isn't so much

with pastuerization as with cleanliness. I suspect that

a person who is not on antibiotics and gets plenty of probiotics

is not likely to get listeria in any case, but when you are pregnant,

everyone would rather you be ultra-careful.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> The last batch of listeria-laced cheese WAS made with pastuerized

> milk, it was Mexican soft cheese. The issue isn't so much

> with pastuerization as with cleanliness. I suspect that

> a person who is not on antibiotics and gets plenty of probiotics

> is not likely to get listeria in any case, but when you are

pregnant,

> everyone would rather you be ultra-careful.

*nods* The listeria thing is a whole other issue and I agree that

when pregnant you should be really careful. I was just surprised by

Katja's statement becasue it seemed to suggest that raw brie or other

soft cheese are readily available. That may be the case in other

countries, but just isn't in the states.

Ghislaine

[Guest guest]

,

I would like to hear more about your experience. When I was

pregnant with my first I was also using an inhaled steroid for

asthma (eating tons of wheat and un-cultured dairy then), didn't

know this would cause the candida to take over my system, as well as

effectively " steeping " my baby in a yeasty womb for 9 months! She

was born with thrush, and the nastiest colic you have ever seen. I

also wonder if I imparted any intenstinal flora in her system,

although she did extended breast feed for a number of years (weaned

at 4.5).

So what are you doing different to prevent whatever difficulties

occurred for you?

Leann

> Hi Leann,

>

> It is not the culture which would do the harm(notice there are no

warnings

> against yogurt), it is the possibility of unfriendly

bacteria " they " are

> worried about. I think pregnancy is a very important time to

consume

> cultured foods, as progesterone proliferates yeast, so it is

importance to

> keep the intake of friendly bacteria high so that one can have a

nicely

> balanced birth canal and breastmilk for the baby(you are how

he/she will get

> his/her flora). I had no source of friendly bacteria, and it was

part of

> what caused my health to decline, but I know for next time.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Michele

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-

Speed

> Marketplace.

http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

>

> Now, if you ask ME what to avoid while pregnant .. I'd say GRAINS,

esp.

> wheat, barley, rye. And I'd eat lots of steak and liver, and whole

dried

> fish ... sweet potatoes ... butter ...

>

Ok Miss Heidi, I am asking YOU! ;0)

Why do you recommend avoiding grains? I find rice especially

grounding, we don't eat a ton of barley or rye, but on occaision.

Whole dried fish--where do I get these and what do I do with them.

(Trying to imagine myself delicately nibble the head of a whole

dried fish while reading a bed time story to my daughter!)

Sweet potatoes, why sweet potatoes in particular?

Thanks for humoring me!

Leann

[Guest guest]

Hi Leann,

I had a candida condition my whole life, not that it was ever diagnosed,

along with leaky gut syndrome that led to just about every ailment you can

imagine(insert candida/leaky gut symptom list). I also had asthma and was on

an inhaler 4x + per day for fifteen years. I went 100% raw which took care

of all the symptoms, but never addressed the flora issue, as I knew nothing

about it. Shortly before I got pregnant, a friend of mine was seeing this

guy who had a serious skin problem. I did not know about yeast in the skin

or believe me I would have not spent the night at her place - she never

washed her comforter. We both got really terrible bumps a couple days after.

I was eating too much honey(cooked, unbeknownst to me) at the time which I

believe contributed to the infection. I got pregnant a couple weeks later,

and within a month, had what really felt like a yeast infection, though the

midwives told me it was " normal " .

I had terrible nausea all 9 mos and the only thing that helped was starch,

so I succumbed to cravings and pressure from family/friends and started

eating minimal amounts of cooked foods. I ate foods made from wheat/spelt,

corn, soy, etc not realizing I was very sensitive to those foods until I

reacted to them with asthma attacks - the first since I had went raw. I

began to make the allergy connection, but continued eating way too much

starch/honey.

By the ninth month I had excema on my face. I went 100% raw again, and the

vaginal yeast symptoms went away quickly,though I was left w/excema. When

Gaby was born, within a couple days he broke out in a rash. I was told this

was normal. At two weeks old, he started doing this cute thing where he

looked like he was jogging while laying down. It was gas, which a couple

weeks later was followed by constipation and excema. No one knew what was

causing it, and I sadly ignored advice from a friend to take Bifida(though I

did buy some, my childs father left it out in the summer heat so it did

nothing and I gave up quickly). I experimented with food elimination and

found that if I ate " light " salads and fruit, he was fine. I knew within a

couple hours of eating if I had dome something wrong because his eyelids

would break out in a little bumpy rash.

After a while of this I learned it was protein causing the constipation. At

first I thought there was something wrong with him, until I learned he was

reacting to undigested proteins in my milk from leaky gut syndrome. I

believe this is the cause of colic. I didn't get LGS; I just cut out protein

food. I added brown rice, the only food which did not cause him to be

constipated, and became diabetic again as well as flaring up the candida. I

went back and forth between eating raw and adding rice/yams because the low

protein diet left me weak and starving. Gaby was on just milk for a year,

except for eating some avocado and dulse, occasional fruits. He did well and

gained weight quickly, consistently advanced for all milestones, physical

and otherwise. He did not get a cold until recently.

He was unable to eat nuts or seeds for a long time without reacting with a

rash. I started taking flora when he was one, at which time my digestion was

so bad any protein food caused me sever stomach pain. My digestion slowly

improved, though when my money situation was too bad to buy flora it would

get bad again. Gaby was eating foods like legumes and grains as we were

vegan he could not eat nuts/seeds at the time. My leaky gut became worse

again after sharing some of Gaby's foods, to the point where my hands were

covered in excema. The only way to avoid this was to eat so low protein my

nails had holes and I had edema.

In the past few months, 's digestion became worse, lots of gas(whew!)

and sensitivities to grains/legumes. He was covered in a rash in December,

so after lots of research and checking out Price, I cut the legumes/grains

completely and within a week the rash was gone. He has zinc deficiency, but

it is improving with time and he very rarely has gas anymore. I am giving

him a little enzymes to help for now. I am taking Primal Defense and using

kim chee generously; soon I will be making goat milk yogurt for the two of

us and kefir. Gaby takes a children's probiotic which seems to be helping.

He is eating some meat now, and we switched to coconut oil for cooking. I

will get candida problems in flash if I eat starch, so I avoid it like the

plague. I eat fruits,veggies, a few nuts,fish and eggs now. My leaky gut is

healing, though I still have occasional excema, it is tiny and I know my

digestion is improving as I can eat lots of protein now. I take HCI

w/Pepsin, and protease enzymes along with pancreatic enzymes for digestion.

Candida and leaky gut go hand in hand, so the symptoms are often

interchangeable. I understand now it is very important to have a source of

friendly organisms, and completely cutting out irritating foods and

supplementing when necessary to aid digestion are essential to healing. It

has taking almost three years for me to heal to the point where I almost

feel normal. I only hope that Gaby will be okay now. I know from experience

that the right diet can allow your body to reverse nearly any ailment, so I

think since he is young he will be okay. It saddens me to think of the pain

my milk caused him when he was so little and that I gave him candida instead

of the friendly bacteria he was supposed to be getting from my milk. At

least I know my milk now is much more nicely balanced.

Sorry this was so long, I've never been very economical with my words.

Sincerely,

Michele

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[Guest guest]

Michele,

Thanks for sharing the " what happened " . Glad to hear you are

healing, baby is healing, we do the best we can with the information

we have at the time.

Also glad you are making your own kimchee, we have found that to be

a cheap and yummy way to get our friendly flora beefed up.

Cheers, LEann

[Guest guest]

>Ok Miss Heidi, I am asking YOU! ;0)

Ok, you get what you ask for ;-p

>Why do you recommend avoiding grains? I find rice especially

>grounding, we don't eat a ton of barley or rye, but on occaision.

I don't think rice is a problem -- it CAN be for some people but by oral

tradition it IS " grounding " and " soothing " etc. Esp. as " cooked rice "

or congee (congee is really rather nice if you need comfort food ...

do a search for some recipes). Rice has few nutrients, but it does

give energy and doesn't hurt your stomach. If you have blood sugar

issues it's best to eat rice with protein and fermented vegies.

Barley and rye are iffy ... if you can find

some other source for whatever it is you eat that would be better.

>Whole dried fish--where do I get these and what do I do with them.

>(Trying to imagine myself delicately nibble the head of a whole

>dried fish while reading a bed time story to my daughter!)

Well, I grind them up and put them in my kimchi. I also snack on them, I have

a little container of them at my desk and nibble their little heads off ...

seems strange at first but they are oddly addicting. And REALLY filling. They

are tiny, about an inch long. I kind of keep them out of sight though, lest

someone call the men in the white coats ;--)

They are extremely full of nutrients. Dried shrimp too ... ground dried

shrimp (run them thru the blender) are used in many cuisines as a spice.

They work like " quickie bullion cubes " except they are very nutritious.

I like them added to hamburger for meatloaf or patties ... ground shrimp

are what give that neat flavor to wanton filling.

>Sweet potatoes, why sweet potatoes in particular?

Of the vegies, sweet potatoes have the most nutrients (well, greens

might have more). White potatoes aren't bad either, but sweet potatoes

are said to be really full of good stuff. Wen you are pregnant, the

trick is to eat foods as high in nutrients as possible.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much for your response Heidi--would these recommendations

also hold true for nursing moms?

A question--are you getting your dried fish at Asian or Latin

markets? Do you recommend one kind over another? What is the

easiest for a newby to start snacking on?

Interestingly, my mother (who is Mexican American) remembers when

she was a child her father would bring home dried shrimp and they

would eat them together as a snack. He also gorged on tripe soup

(menudo), raw onion and beet vinegar salads, tons of chile-laden

condiments.

Anyway, very interesting. Without getting too technical, what is

iffy about barley and rye? These grains make such occaisional

appearances in our diet that it's not a big deal, but I'm just

curious.

Thanks, Leann

>

> >Ok Miss Heidi, I am asking YOU! ;0)

>

> Ok, you get what you ask for ;-p

>

>

> >Why do you recommend avoiding grains? I find rice especially

> >grounding, we don't eat a ton of barley or rye, but on occaision.

>

> I don't think rice is a problem -- it CAN be for some people but

by oral

> tradition it IS " grounding " and " soothing " etc. Esp. as " cooked

rice "

> or congee (congee is really rather nice if you need comfort

food ...

> do a search for some recipes). Rice has few nutrients, but it does

> give energy and doesn't hurt your stomach. If you have blood sugar

> issues it's best to eat rice with protein and fermented vegies.

>

> Barley and rye are iffy ... if you can find

> some other source for whatever it is you eat that would be better.

>

>

> >Whole dried fish--where do I get these and what do I do with

them.

> >(Trying to imagine myself delicately nibble the head of a whole

> >dried fish while reading a bed time story to my daughter!)

>

> Well, I grind them up and put them in my kimchi. I also snack on

them, I have

> a little container of them at my desk and nibble their little

heads off ...

> seems strange at first but they are oddly addicting. And REALLY

filling. They

> are tiny, about an inch long. I kind of keep them out of sight

though, lest

> someone call the men in the white coats ;--)

>

> They are extremely full of nutrients. Dried shrimp too ... ground

dried

> shrimp (run them thru the blender) are used in many cuisines as a

spice.

> They work like " quickie bullion cubes " except they are very

nutritious.

> I like them added to hamburger for meatloaf or patties ... ground

shrimp

> are what give that neat flavor to wanton filling.

>

> >Sweet potatoes, why sweet potatoes in particular?

>

> Of the vegies, sweet potatoes have the most nutrients (well, greens

> might have more). White potatoes aren't bad either, but sweet

potatoes

> are said to be really full of good stuff. Wen you are pregnant, the

> trick is to eat foods as high in nutrients as possible.

>

> -- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Thanks so much for your response Heidi--would these recommendations

>also hold true for nursing moms?

Probably ... nutritious food is nutritious food. I've heard a lot of stories

about Mom's passing on grain proteins in their milk and making the baby sick.

Ideally a nursing Mom wouldn't have leaky gut ... anything that helps the

gut will help the baby too (like kefir, kimchi).

>A question--are you getting your dried fish at Asian or Latin

>markets? Do you recommend one kind over another? What is the

>easiest for a newby to start snacking on?

Asian, mainly because that's what's here. Latin markets are good too, I think.

>Interestingly, my mother (who is Mexican American) remembers when

>she was a child her father would bring home dried shrimp and they

>would eat them together as a snack. He also gorged on tripe soup

>(menudo), raw onion and beet vinegar salads, tons of chile-laden

>condiments.

REAL Mexican cooking is very NT. They sell dried shrimp in the Mexican section

of our supermarket (but in very small quantities ... costs too much that way).

>Anyway, very interesting. Without getting too technical, what is

>iffy about barley and rye? These grains make such occaisional

>appearances in our diet that it's not a big deal, but I'm just

>curious.

If a person reacts to wheat gluten, they will probably react to barley and rye

too.

The " reaction " sets up an autoimmune cascade of events that is very damaging ...

way out of proportion with the amount eaten. Since most people don't know

if they are reacting or not, eating those grains is risky. OTOH, there have been

healthy peoples who ate barley and rye, so they don't seem to have the

" innate " problems that wheat does.

However, I know for sure I react to barley, even barley grass, and so does

my son, so for me it is DEFINITELY on the " bad " list.

-- Heidi Jean