Re: Traditional diets & ayurveda, chinese medicine

[Guest guest]

hi, leann:

well, ok. here's my opinion about eastern medicine. i don't have a lot of

time, so i'm going to sound kind of categorical about this, ready?

i think that 1. we have a lot to learn from chinese medicine. (i'm somewhat

more skeptical of ayurvedic medicine) but 2. we're *not* eastern (unless

you are). just as i believe that echinacea grown local to you will be more

helpful for you than echinacea grown across the country, i believe the same

for healing systems. i've tried chinese medicine, and there are a lot of

practitioners locally who i have respect for. but in my opinion, it just

isn't right for my body. i'm irish and russian, and my body responds to

those things. it's akin to the theory of ancestral eating, i guess.

so, if i were treating your daughter, i'd first tell you to go gluten free,

cause that's just a great first step. and to get rid of all sugars, colors,

and " flavorings " , if you have any of those. i'd go crazy with the garlic,

support the heck outta her liver, work at fixing the flora in her

intestines that are out of whack from the antibiotics, and i'd keep her

home for longer than you think is necessary (so that she really truly is

healed, and not going out in the cold and germy world with some of the

infection still hanging on).

anyway. that's my opinion. which, if you're already doing those things,

may not be useful, but there it is

-katja

At 01:19 AM 2/29/2004, you wrote:

>Hi All,

>

>Feeling bummed, my daughter has had her 4th ear infection in 2

>months, they are not responsive to anything but antibiotics, and

>even so we try to hold out as long as possible before we use them,

>but she is in such agony. We have tried garlic in the ear, garlic

>oil in the ear, all kinds of stuff and I am getting frustrated.

>Wondering if we need to clean the ducts in our heat system, as the

>prior tenants had many cats...

>

>Anyway, we do go see a Chinese medicine practitioner who makes all

>these interesting dietary recommendations when dd has an ear

>infection, no seafood, no nuts, no crackers (baked foods impart

>excess heat into the body), we have a green light on cod liver oil,

>but my favorite shrimp broth has been no-no-ed.

>

>I spent some time gazing tonight at an Ayurvedic cookbook that

>talked about fermented veggies, fruits as being questionable in the

>diet. Milk products, something we struggle with, is of course

>considered a great thing.

>

>I am just wondering about the native dietary practices in China and

>India, where these healing modalities come from.

>

>Leann

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

hey, leann - i had some more thoughts.

now first off, amber has never been sick, so i don't know how good i will

be at following this advice someday, but i do know that when she was all

constipated i cried. so, i'm expecting this will be hard for me.

fortunately, my husband is in agreement and can be resolute when i fall

apart with sympathy, so it works out alright. that's my disclaimer - don't

feel bad if you can't go with this.

ok. first, i'd recommend getting issue 119 of mothering magazine. if she's

sick right now tell me and i'll scan and email you the article - it has a

great article on why illness is good for children. i was going to say: if

she's miserable or in agony, tough it out without the drugs. only use the

antibiotics if she's in *danger*. but this article does a much more

graceful job of explaining that it also has a good section on how to

know the difference between miserable and danger, and good suggestions on

how to stay strong yourself. (my favorite method, as i noted, is simply not

to - to be miserable right along with her while my husband is strong.

though i should say that there's a difference between feeling strong or

feeling miserable and wanting to call the doctor. i feel miserable with her

but i don't want to call a doctor. it's fine to cry with her!)

one particularly good paragraph is:

Children's illnesses are more accurately referred to as acute

inflammations. If it's red, painful, swollen, and hot, it's inflamed. All

of these characteristics of acute inflammation are caused by the immune

system shifting into high gear, focusing its considerable energies on

reestablishing a state of balance in the body. Acute childhood

inflammations are not solely the result of malicious bacteria or viruses,

but also of the inherent wisdom of your child's body in recognizing when

it's time to clean house, get rid of the old and outworn, and make room for

new, healthy tissues.

so, the part about balance there is important - and that's my second point.

antibiotics throw the body out of balance. not only do they unbalance the

flora in the intestines, which is of course the first thing we think about

from the nutritional standpoint, and the second is that the antibiotics,

especially in a recurring form like this, are actually serving to

strengthen the illness, not defeat it - disrupting the balance of the

strength of the body vs. the bugs in the environent. but antibiotics also

throw the internal systems off - the systems that know how to keep the body

healthy. when we override our body with antibiotics, we're telling our body

that it doesn't know how to run. which is sort of silly, if you think about

it. if you can find a way to be comfortable with it, try to trust her body.

this also will teach her to trust her body and allow it to work as it needs

to.

obviously there are times that the antibiotic is just simply necessary, and

when that's the case, we can just be glad that we know to go back and help

the body balance itself again. but if you can, hold out! wait till you

really feel that there's danger, if it's possible the benefit is that

once your daughter has defeated the ear infection naturally, she is *much*

more likely to be cured of them for good.

secondly, there's a pretty good book called Healing Childhood Ear

Infections by Dr. A Schmidt. it's pretty in-depth, and it might be

more than what you need - maybe the article in mothering will suffice. but

if getting into research mode might help you be strong, then by all means,

get the book!

good luck and holler if you need support

katja

At 01:19 AM 2/29/2004, you wrote:

>Hi All,

>

>Feeling bummed, my daughter has had her 4th ear infection in 2

>months, they are not responsive to anything but antibiotics, and

>even so we try to hold out as long as possible before we use them,

>but she is in such agony. We have tried garlic in the ear, garlic

>oil in the ear, all kinds of stuff and I am getting frustrated.

>Wondering if we need to clean the ducts in our heat system, as the

>prior tenants had many cats...

>

>Anyway, we do go see a Chinese medicine practitioner who makes all

>these interesting dietary recommendations when dd has an ear

>infection, no seafood, no nuts, no crackers (baked foods impart

>excess heat into the body), we have a green light on cod liver oil,

>but my favorite shrimp broth has been no-no-ed.

>

>I spent some time gazing tonight at an Ayurvedic cookbook that

>talked about fermented veggies, fruits as being questionable in the

>diet. Milk products, something we struggle with, is of course

>considered a great thing.

>

>I am just wondering about the native dietary practices in China and

>India, where these healing modalities come from.

>

>Leann

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> i think that 1. we have a lot to learn from chinese medicine.

> (i'm somewhat more skeptical of ayurvedic medicine) but 2.

> we're *not* eastern (unless you are). just as i believe that

> echinacea grown local to you will be more helpful for you

> than echinacea grown across the country, i believe the same

> for healing systems. i've tried chinese medicine, and there

> are a lot of practitioners locally who i have respect for.

> but in my opinion, it just isn't right for my body. i'm irish

> and russian, and my body responds to those things. it's akin

> to the theory of ancestral eating, i guess.

I live in the heart of Transcendental Meditation country out here in

SE Iowa, and Ayurveda is very big here. Over the years I've gone

through the local Ayurvedic clinic for Panchakarma (purifying,

rejuvinating treatments) many times, and I very much enjoy it.

However, as I've recently discovered, the more I deviate from an

Ayurvedic diet, the better I feel. An Ayurvedic diet emphasizes

cooked, lacto-vegetarian food, and I just don't do well on that. All

those grain and legumes were keeping me chained to the hypoglycemic

rollercoaster, and it was killing me. My body does a lot better on a

diet of mostly raw veggies and some meat. I don't know if it's

ancestral or simply individual.

[Guest guest]

Katya,

Thanks for your response. I've been thinking about this on and off

today. I too think many things are so *individual*, but at times

when I look at the ethnic basis I am unsure where to turn because we

are a highly blended family. On my side I have a mother of Mexican

& Southwest American Indian stock, and my father was Irish American

with a Native American grandmother (Southeast). My husband is a

Middle-Northern European blend, with apparantly very little else.

So with that in mind I am not sure where that leaves my daughter for

the local and racially supportive treatment! The locally produced

Oregon grape root and echinacea alone are not enough to treat ear

infections once they have begun, as we have tried that.

I don't know. We've also gone through eliminations of various foods

in our diet, wheat and dairy were the biggest offenders, so the

first to go. My husband professes to do well with oats, so he still

eats those, I sometimes join although it is not a food that I relish

eating. I grew up eating rice and none of us seem to have a

negative repsonse to that, unless it is a long term cumulative thing

over a period of years.

I personally have a hard time with the idea of eliminating grains

because they are part of our ancestral lineages; the one time we

tried to give up grains I immediately fell ill (and if anyone

suggests I was detoxing I will refer them to the recent fruitarian

thread!). Most immediately in our region the local grain/starch was

camas, a tuber which was dried and ground into a pastey-flour--

however Europeans reported anything made from camas, while

satisfying and nutritive, made them extremely gassy, at times

causing massive gastric distress.

In the past we have experienced profound healing using Chinese

medicine, however I should qualify that by saying our ND moved away

(something we regularly lament!), and he was not practicing pure

TCM, he blended aspects of Western Herbology, blood type dietary

recommendations, as well as some aspects of Weston Price's work,

acupuncture, chiropractic adjustment, and he had also trained as an

allopathic nurse. So the combination all together *worked* and we

have not been able to find anyone else who can duplicate the

efficacy of what he did in his practice.

I am going to look for the book you recommended, have had another

similar book by Ann Block recommended as well. Having said,

that, and without having read the books I also have the experience

of when my daughter was 8-18 months old she had many repeat ear

infections. At that time the only grain she consumed was brown rice

which I am told is not a prime allergen, and does not contain

gluten. We also did not consume dairy, and I was home with her full

time.

I remember looking at her one day, when she was over 12 months old,

and we had religiously avoided antibiotics, with great suffering on

her part and great sleep deprivation for all of us. And if finally

occurred to me that her personality and development was being shaped

by the experience of constantly being ill, that for her age perhaps

she might be out toddling around the living room, but instead she

was very subdued, at times had a hopeless look about her, and did

not want to be anyplace but in my arms. When she did roam around

she was very dizzy, topsy turvy and would fall way more than usual

because she had glue ear. That was the day it occurred to me that

perhaps antibiotics might have a use, and sure enough they did

quickly get rid of that infection. Of course, there were more.

Then we found an awesome Chinese remedy, took her for some cranio-

sacral work, and had a long vacation from the ear infections.

There was a geographic move figured into that, so hard to know how

little or how much effect that has had, since we moved back to her

birth city a few months ago. These days she is in school part time,

which is where she *wants* to be, and I am about to start a part

time (10-15 hrs a week) job which we desperately need me to be

doing.

The other aspect I do wonder about--when I was pregnant with dd I

went through a phase of eating crap, literally just crap junk food.

I remember in the first trimester I was obsessed with Egg McMuffins,

I know it's totally disgusting, sad but true, and the best I could

do at that time was to buy all the ingredients and make them at

home, but still denatured flours, vegetable oils, processed cheese.

Then in my second trimester, I responded to work stress by eating

junk sweet foods, denatured flours, all the wrong stuff, even

developed the first cavity in my entire life! (By correcting my

diet I have not had to seek any dental assistance, I think the

cavitiy simply went away.)

At this point I wonder if I haven't created that child who has the

underdeveloped middle third of the face, or at least has the

eustachian tubes and sinuses to match--her father likewise grew up

eating junk foods and has a mouthful of cavities to prove it, and as

an adult has struggled with sinus infections.

That being said, since I didn't give her the best start during the

pregnancy, aside from right living and eating now, supplementation

with cod liver oil and balancing the intestinal flora (which we do

with a combination of homemade sauerkraut and kombucha)--any other

recommendations?

I have never had ear infections before and have been struggling with

a persistent ear ache since December--which is why I am wondering

about the leftover cat dander in the heat vents, since I *know* I am

allergic to cats!

Thanks for your suggestions--and although I am not keen on giving up

grains, I will tell you that I am currently dehydrating a batch of

flax seed crackers/crisps, no grains involved at all.

Cheers, Leann

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

leann -

<snip long heartfelt email>

two things really stand out to me in your email. first is, when i was in

the first trimester, i ate...HOTDOGS!! not even organic ones! kahn's plump

and juicy!! so ...yeah. i'm there with you on that guilt!!

second, your description of your daughter being sick. i just don't now how

i would have handled that! it sounds so difficult and - well, ok, i am

pretty sure i would have cried! a lot! i'm so adamantly against

antibiotics, but i think i might have done the same thing at that point!

and for the third of two things...your ND sounds like s/he was right on. i

feel like you must be in quite a bind - so here's the only useful thing i

have left to share: when i was a kid, i had ear infections for two years,

with usually two days in between. i probably ate more antibiotics than ...i

dunno, things kids eat a lot. finally i had tubes in my ears!

other than that i was a healthy eater as SAD kids go. and now that i'm

(ahem) 30 (aiee!) i have had only one cavity in my life, i'm healthy, and

the only real problem* i have had was a huge bout of the most tenacious

thrush i can imagine my first three months of breastfeeding. and then i did

candida cleanse and oregano oil and garlic and we balanced it back out

again, and now i'm learning to love kefir and ...ya know. trust your

mama-gut. it's right.

*there's be other sub-optimalities, but those can't be classified as problems.

[Guest guest]

Katja,

Thanks, we are actually flirting with the idea of *considering*

tubes, I totally hate the idea of doing this. I am currently trying

to find a cheap otoscope, and looking for the lowest price on the

book you recommended, as well as the Block book.

I also ate a ton of antibiotics as a kid, the heavy duty kind

because amoxicilin never worked on me. I regularly had pneumonia,

bronchitis, strep throat. Also eating tons of wheat and dairy.

Although in general I think repeat antibiotic use is a bad

thing...I'm not sure if the tubes are worse or not. Someone told me

about a very expensive osteopath who works on kids, perhaps we can

scrape together enough to go see this guy. Apparantly he does great

work with kids with sinus/ear problems.

The flax crackers came out awesome, but then I lay awake last night

wondering if flax was a seed or a grain or both, oh my is that bad?

Too much to worry about at this point, dd loves them!

Thanks,

Leann

> leann -

> <snip long heartfelt email>

>

> two things really stand out to me in your email. first is, when i

was in

> the first trimester, i ate...HOTDOGS!! not even organic ones!

kahn's plump

> and juicy!! so ...yeah. i'm there with you on that guilt!!

>

> second, your description of your daughter being sick. i just don't

now how

> i would have handled that! it sounds so difficult and - well, ok,

i am

> pretty sure i would have cried! a lot! i'm so adamantly against

> antibiotics, but i think i might have done the same thing at that

point!

>

> and for the third of two things...your ND sounds like s/he was

right on. i

> feel like you must be in quite a bind - so here's the only useful

thing i

> have left to share: when i was a kid, i had ear infections for two

years,

> with usually two days in between. i probably ate more antibiotics

than ...i

> dunno, things kids eat a lot. finally i had tubes in my ears!

>

> other than that i was a healthy eater as SAD kids go. and now that

i'm

> (ahem) 30 (aiee!) i have had only one cavity in my life, i'm

healthy, and

> the only real problem* i have had was a huge bout of the most

tenacious

> thrush i can imagine my first three months of breastfeeding. and

then i did

> candida cleanse and oregano oil and garlic and we balanced it back

out

> again, and now i'm learning to love kefir and ...ya know. trust

your

> mama-gut. it's right.

>

> *there's be other sub-optimalities, but those can't be classified

as problems.

[Guest guest]

At 12:05 PM 3/1/2004, you wrote:

>Although in general I think repeat antibiotic use is a bad

>thing...I'm not sure if the tubes are worse or not. Someone told me

>about a very expensive osteopath who works on kids, perhaps we can

>scrape together enough to go see this guy. Apparantly he does great

>work with kids with sinus/ear problems.

leann -

i'm not sure which is worse. one one hand, getting the tubes requires

anesthesia, i believe, and certainly some more antibiotics. on the other

hand, it's just one round, not X rounds. for me, it was successful, and

they've been doing the " surgery " for so long that - well, by now they might

even do it in doctor's offices; you might not have to go to a hospital. i

don't really know. i haven't had any recurrant trouble with sinus

infections or ear infections as an adult or a teenager, so perhaps it's a

pretty benign thing?

i think if i didn't have any further research available to me, based on

what i know now, i think i'd consider the tubes.

-katja

[Guest guest]

>Thanks, we are actually flirting with the idea of *considering*

>tubes, I totally hate the idea of doing this. I am currently trying

>to find a cheap otoscope, and looking for the lowest price on the

>book you recommended, as well as the Block book.

Another thing that might help is tea tree oil. It's an antibiotic,

but a topical one. Seems to work. So does kefir whey.

And maybe hydrogen peroxide, if you haven't tried it.

If the infection is on the inside of the ear drum, I'm not

sure those get " through " or not, but it probably can't hurt.

I don't like antibiotics either, but long-term ear infections

can also lead to permanent ear damage. It IS odd that they

are so common at this point in time ... tho my daughter

got them mainly because I did the " let them suck on a bottle

while they sleep " trick (I stopped doing that! It really DOES

lead to ear infections, just like they say ... maybe it wouldn't

if it was a kefir bottle).

Also, I used to get external ear infections constantly because

I went swimming. Or washed my hair without drying out

the ear canal. Drying the ears after washing with a

couple of drops of alcohol (or using a swab)

stopped that problem. I'm not sure if those were infections

so much as maybe fungus or dermatitis (from shampoo, it

can be very irritating and cause something that looks a lot

like an infection in the ear canal).

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

At 02:25 PM 3/1/2004, you wrote:

>I don't like antibiotics either, but long-term ear infections

>can also lead to permanent ear damage. It IS odd that they

>are so common at this point in time ... tho my daughter

>got them mainly because I did the " let them suck on a bottle

>while they sleep " trick (I stopped doing that! It really DOES

>lead to ear infections, just like they say ... maybe it wouldn't

>if it was a kefir bottle).

actually it has to do (supposedly) with the way that the ear canal is

developing. if people are interested, i can quote from the book about why

this happens...(and my vague memory of it seems completely compatible with

the bottle sucking...clearly i need to read this again, but the book is on

my desk.)

ya know, tho, i bet my mother let me fall asleep with a bottle...

>Also, I used to get external ear infections constantly because

>I went swimming. Or washed my hair without drying out

>the ear canal. Drying the ears after washing with a

>couple of drops of alcohol (or using a swab)

>stopped that problem. I'm not sure if those were infections

>so much as maybe fungus or dermatitis (from shampoo, it

>can be very irritating and cause something that looks a lot

>like an infection in the ear canal).

mmm, alcohol in my ears. i don't ever get ear infections anymore but i will

say, i'm a FREAK about my ears being clean and dry. any bit of swimmy

moisture drives me up a wall. i don't know if that has to do with having

had infections or what...