Re: POLITICS - My God (was Evolution | Creation | Intelligent Design)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/28/04 10:52:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,

myers_45@... writes:

> What is your god like Chris?

Christianity has traditionally considered animate life to be animated by the

Holy Spirit. It is the breath of the Holy Spirit that God breathed into man

that gives man his reason, rationality, and imagination, and all qualities that

make us human. Yet animals are also recognized to be bearers of the Holy

Spirit, only they only partially partake in the activities of that Spirit.

Now that we know that what we once thought was static is actually dynamic at

the microscopic level, we further must recognize that the Holy Spirit animates

even that which appears inanimate.

In fact, this is consonant with the prayer that is used to open every service

in the Orthodox Christian Church:

" O Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth,

Who are present everywhere and fill all things.... "

That God is everywhere is also recognized in the Lord's prayer. The proper

translation is NOT " Our Father who art in Heaven " but o en teis ouraneis, not

ouranos, is plural, thus " Our Father who art in the heavens " . Thus, God is not

a localized entity that resides in a specific place, but is in " the heavens, "

which we now know to entirely surround the earth on every side. " The

heavens " are not in the " up " direction, but are like a pool that the earth is

submerged in.

God created the laws by which the universe operates. As Sheryl pointed out,

what seems to us as chaos or randomness is actually divine order. That

supposed " randomness " can yield beatiful, complex, and intricate order, is a

testament to the enormous and infinite power of God and infinite creativity and

intelligence of God. A God that has to babysit his creation at every moment to

intervene in every step is less, not more, powerful than the true God, who

created natural laws that unfold themselves into manifestations of the beauty

and

intricacy of the mind of God.

And, in fact, these natural laws are not intermediaries between God and

creation, but are Gods actions within his creation, are the very activity of God

Himself. As much as we know, we are yet baffled by what makes an electron spin

or what makes light travel. We know how fast light travels and many other

properties about it, but we are left with the fundamental question of WHY light

travels.

I believe the answer is that light is animated by the Holy Spirit, who is

responsible for all motion. Electrostatic forces, spinning of subatomic

particles, all are the movement of the Holy Spirit.

It is the God who creates a creation so beautiful and complex and intricate

who also creates it in such a beatiful and complex and intricate WAY. The

creationist is faced with the incongruence between the intricacy of God's

creation

and the boring, simplistic, and unintricate way of simply speaking something

into being. God does not have a larynx or vocal chords. When God " speaks " he

speaks in the language of motion, attraction, combination; his days are, as

St. says, like 1000 years, and his 1000 years are like a day.

Evolutional theory is the product of the scientific method, and it reveals

that God's method of creation is as intricate and beautiful as his creation

itself.

Chris

[Guest guest]

********

God created the laws by which the universe operates. As Sheryl pointed out,

what seems to us as chaos or randomness is actually divine order. That

supposed " randomness " can yield beatiful, complex, and intricate order, is a

testament to the enormous and infinite power of God and infinite creativity

and

intelligence of God. A God that has to babysit his creation at every moment

to

intervene in every step is less, not more, powerful than the true God, who

created natural laws that unfold themselves into manifestations of the

beauty and

intricacy of the mind of God.

And, in fact, these natural laws are not intermediaries between God and

creation, but are Gods actions within his creation, are the very activity of

God

Himself. As much as we know, we are yet baffled by what makes an electron

spin

or what makes light travel. We know how fast light travels and many other

properties about it, but we are left with the fundamental question of WHY

light

travels. - Chris

*******

Very well stated, Chris. I also think our three-dimensional sensory

existence limits our ability to understand it all. In math we can represent

functions of multiple variables numerically, but not graphically when they

exceed three dimensions.

Anyway, to limit God to some predefined role that suits our little purpose

is quite presumptuous (other words come to mind too). It reminds me of what

astronomer extraordinaire Galileo went through in his day with the Catholic

Church refusing to accept the facts that presented themselves concerning the

Copernican Theory (the fact that earth ain't the center of the universe as

religious leaders fiercely defended). Poor Galileo blinded by studying the

sun and subjected to the Inquisition for presenting science. [bTW, he

discovered c (the speed of light) pretty closely by studying the moons of

Jupiter.] You know, it wasn't until 1979 that Galileo was " exonerated " by

the Church.

" We cannot but deplore certain attitudes that have led many to conclude that

faith and science are mutually opposed. "

~ Pope II, re-examining the Galileo case hundreds of years later

History does repeat itself.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

< " We cannot but deplore certain attitudes that have led many to conclude that

<faith and science are mutually opposed. "

<~ Pope II, re-examining the Galileo case hundreds of years later

<History does repeat itself.

Christian doctrine is very much about the " truth " , just as science is concerned

with the pursuit of truth - they are not enemies to each other. The following

was written by Pope in 1996 on evolution. One reference he makes in

the article reflects the Catholic Church has not for over 50 decades, viewed

evolution as contrary to Christian doctrine. One quote from the article, " We

know, in fact, that truth cannot contradict truth (cf. Leo XIII, Encyclical

Providentissimus Deus). "

" In his Encyclical Humani generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII had already

stated that there was no opposition between evolution and the doctrine of the

faith about man and his vocation, on condition that one did not lose sight of

several indisputable points (cf. AAS 42 [1950], pp. 575-576). "

http://www.cin.org/jp2evolu.html

Magisterium Is Concerned with Question of Evolution

For It Involves Conception of Man

Pope II

Message to Pontifical Academy of Sciences

October 22, 1996

To the Members of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences taking part in the

Plenary Assembly

With great pleasure I address cordial greetings to you, Mr President, and to

all of you who constitute the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, on the occasion of

your plenary assembly. I offer my best wishes in particular to the new

academicians, who have come to take part in your work for the first time. I

would also like to remember the academicians who died during the past year, whom

I commend to the Lord of life.

1. In celebrating the 60th anniversary of the Academy's refoundation, I would

like to recall the intentions of my predecessor Pius XI, who wished to surround

himself with a select group of scholars, relying on them to inform the Holy See

in complete freedom about developments in scientific research, and thereby to

assist him in his reflections.

He asked those whom he called the Church's Senatus scientificus to serve the

truth. I again extend this same invitation to you today, certain that we will

all be able to profit from the fruitfulness of a trustful dialogue between the

Church and science (cf. Address to the Academy of Sciences, n. 1, 28 October

1986, L'Osservatore Romano English edition, 24 November 1986, p. 22).

Science at the dawn of the third millennium

2. I am pleased with the first theme you have chosen, that of the origins of

life and evolution, an essential subject which deeply interests the Church,

since Revelation, for its part, contains teaching concerning the nature and

origins of man. How do the conclusions reached by the various scientific

disciplines coincide with those contained in the message of Revelation? And if,

at first sight, there are apparent contradictions, in what direction do we look

for their solution? We know, in fact, that truth cannot contradict truth (cf.

Leo XIII, Encyclical Providentissimus Deus). Moreover, to shed greater light on

historical truth, your research on the Church's relations with science between

the 16th and 18th centuries is of great importance.

During this plenary session' you are undertaking a " reflection on science at

the dawn of the third millennium " , starting with the identification of the

principal problems created by the sciences and which affect humanity's future.

With this step you point the way to solutions which will be beneficial to the

whole human community. In the domain of inanimate and animate nature, the

evolution of science and its applications gives rise to new questions. The

better the Church's knowledge is of their essential aspects, the more she will

understand their impact. Consequently, in accordance with her specific mission

she will. be able to offer criteria for discerning the moral conduct required of

all human beings in view of their integral salvation.

3. Before offering you several reflections that more specifically concern the

subject of the origin of life and its evolution, I would like to remind you that

the Magisterium of the Church has already made pronouncements on these matters

within the framework of her own competence. I will cite here two interventions.

In his Encyclical Humani generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII had already

stated that there was no opposition between evolution and the doctrine of the

faith about man and his vocation, on condition that one did not lose sight of

several indisputable points (cf. AAS 42 [1950], pp. 575-576).

For my part, when I received those taking part in your Academy's plenary

assembly on 31 October 1992, I had the opportunity, with regard to Galileo, to

draw attention to the need of a rigorous hermeneutic for the correct

interpretation of the inspired word. It is necessary to determine the proper

sense of Scripture, while avoiding any unwarranted interpretations that make it

say what it does not intend to say. In order to delineate the field of their own

study, the exegete and the theologian must keep informed about the results

achieved by the natural sciences (cf. AAS 85 [1993] pp. 764-772; Address to the

Pontifical Biblical Commission, 23 April 1993, announcing the document on The

interpretation of the Bible in the Church: AAS 86 [1994] pp. 232-243).

Evolution and the Church's Magisterium

4. Taking into account the state of scientific research at the time as well as

of the requirements of theology, the Encyclical Humani generis considered the

doctrine of " evolutionism " a serious hypothesis, worthy of investigation and

in-depth study equal to that of the opposing hypothesis. Pius XII added two

methodological conditions: that this opinion should not be adopted as though it

were a certain, proven doctrine and as though one could totally prescind from

Revelation with regard to the questions it raises. He also spelled out the

condition on which this opinion would be compatible with the Christian faith, a

point to which I will return.

Today, almost half a century after the publication of the Encyclical, new

knowledge has led to the recognition of more than one hypothesis in the theory

of evolution. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively

accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of

knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of

work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in

favour of this theory.

What is the significance of such a theory? To address this question is to

enter the field of epistemology. A theory is a metascientific elaboration,

distinct from the results of observation but consistent with them. By means of

it a series of independent data and facts can be related and interpreted in a

unified explanation. A theory's validity depends on whether or not it can be

verified, it is constantly tested against the facts; wherever it can no longer

explain the latter, it shows its limitations and unsuitability. It must then be

rethought.

Furthermore, while the formulation of a theory like that of evolution complies

with the need for consistency with the observed data, it borrows certain notions

from natural philosophy. And, to tell the truth, rather than the theory of

evolution, we should speak of several theories of evolution. On the one hand,

this plurality has to do with the different explanations advanced for the

mechanism of evolution, and on the other, with the various philosophies on which

it is based. Hence the existence of materialist, reduc tionist and spiritualist

interpretations. What is to be decided here is the true role of philosophy and,

beyond it, of theology.

5. The Church's Magisterium is directly concerned with the question of

evolution, for it involves the conception of man: Revelation teaches us that he

was created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gn 1:27-29). The conciliar

Constitution Gaudium et spes has magnificently explained this doctrine, which is

pivotal to Christian thought. It recalled that man is :the only creature on

earth that God has wanted for its own sake " (n. 24). In other terms, the human

individual cannot be subordinated as a pure means or a pure instrument, either

to the species or to society, he has value per se. He is a person. With his

intellect and his will, he is capable of forming a relationship of communion,

solidarity and self-giving with his peers. St observes that man's

likeness to God resides especially in his speculative intellect for his

relationship with the object of his knowledge resembles God's relationship with

what he has created (Summa Theologica, I-II, q. 3, a. 5, ad 1). But even more,

man is called to enter into a relationship of knowledge and love with God

himself, a relationship which will find its complete fulfilment beyond time, in

eternity. All the depth and grandeur of this vocation are revealed to us in the

mystery of the risen Christ (cf. Gaudium et spes, n. 22). It is by virtue of his

spiritual soul that the whole person possesses such a dignity even in his body.

Pius XII stressed this essential point: if the human body takes its origin from

pre-existent living matter the spiritual soul is immediately created by God

( " animal enim a Deo immediate creari catholica fides nos retinere inhet " ;

Encyclical Humani generic, AAS 42 [1950], p. 575).

Consequently, theories of evolution which, in accordance with the philosophies

inspiring them, consider the mind as emerging from the forces of living matter,

or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter, are incompatible with the truth about

man. Nor are they able to ground the dignity of the person.

6. With man, then, we find ourselves in the presence of an ontological

difference, an ontological leap, one could say. However, does not the posing of

such ontological discontinuity run counter to that physical continuity which

seems to be the main thread of research into evolution in the field of physics

and chemistry? Consideration of the method used in the various branches of

knowledge makes it possible to reconcile two points of view which would seem

irreconcilable. The sciences of observation describe and measure the multiple

manifestations of life with increasing precision and correlate them with the

time line. The moment of transition into the spiritual cannot be the object of

this kind of observation, which nevertheless can discover at the experimental

level a series of very valuable signs indicating what is specific to the human

being. But the experience of metaphysical knowledge, of self-awareness and

self-reflection, of moral conscience, freedom, or again, of aesthetic and

religious experience, falls within the competence of philosophical analysis and

reflection while theology brings out its ultimate meaning according to the

Creator's plans.

We are called to enter eternal life

7. In conclusion, I would like to call to mind a Gospel truth which can shed a

higher light on the horizon of your research into the origins and unfolding of

living matter. The Bible in fact bears an extraordinary message of life. It

gives us a wise vision of life inasmuch as it describes the loftiest forms of

existence. This vision guided me in the Encyclical which I dedicated to respect

for human life, and which I called precisely Evangelium vitae.

It is significant that in St 's Gospel life refers to the divine light

which Christ communicates to us. We are called to enter into eternal life, that

is to say, into the eternity of divine beatitude.

To warn us against the serious temptations threatening us, our Lord quotes the

great saying of Deuteronomy: " Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every

word that proceeds from the mouth of God " (Dt 8:3, cf. Mt 4:4).

Even more, " life " is one of the most beautiful titles which the Bible

attributes to God. He is the living God.

I cordially invoke an abundance of divine blessings upon you and upon all who

are close to you.

From the Vatican, 22 October 1996.

[Guest guest]

>Christian doctrine is very much about the " truth " , just as science is concerned

with the pursuit of truth - they are not enemies to each other. The following

was written by Pope in 1996 on evolution. One reference he makes in

the article reflects the Catholic Church has not for over 50 decades, viewed

evolution as contrary to Christian doctrine. One quote from the article, " We

know, in fact, that truth cannot contradict truth (cf. Leo XIII, Encyclical

Providentissimus Deus). "

I am reminded of a recent set of interviews of a team of neuroscientists

with a Buddhist monk (I don't recall exactly which one).

The monk was not at all threatened by the idea

that the scientists could translate his " good feelings " as neural changes,

and was quite interested in the science involved. But he good-naturedly

chided the scientists as being " narrow minded " because they should

take ALL possibilities into account, including the spiritual that they

can not measure. But by Buddhist doctrine, any truth is truth, you

shouldn't just shut it out because is seems to be contradictory.

BTW the brains scans showed that the monks ARE in fact happier

than most people ... the " happy centers " really light up on their

brains.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

< " We know, in fact, that truth cannot contradict truth (cf. Leo XIII,

<Encyclical Providentissimus Deus). " ~ Pope II

Thanks . It's nice to see some basic reasoning. Did you know about the

" Pope Scope " in Arizona? The Vatican has an observatory in cooperation with

the University of Arizona. They've come a long way.

http://medusa.as.arizona.edu/lbtwww/tech/vatt.htm

Deanna