kefir questions

[Guest guest]

I have 3 questions regarding kefir...

1. What is the difference, in terms of end product, of raw milk that

has been left out to sour and kefir made from adding raw milk to

kefir grains?

2. Can I make kefir by adding some already made kefir to fresh milk

or does it have to be made using the grains?

3. How are you supposed to cover the container while the kefir is

incubating, tightly or loosely? I have 2 different sets of

directions and they conflict. Do the good bacteria need oxygen in

order to proliferate? Then, to age the kefir, you are supposed to

put on a tight lid, right? Why is that?

Thanks.

adele

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for all the info. How did you learn so much about kefir and

other fermented milk products?

Regarding my second question and your response (see below).... I am

wanting to make MORE kefir daily because I am using it as the base

for a baby formula. I need 16 ounces each day right now, plus whey,

and that might go up. My grains ARE making kefir faster now....at

first, it was taking 3 days to get 16 ounces. The way I got around

the problem was to use my last package of kefir powder to make a

batch, then I used that batch to make 3 more batches simultaneously,

and so on. Body Ecology, where I got the powder, said I can do this

up to 7 times. But is that kefir that I am making, or doesn't it

even really matter, as long as the beneficial bacteria are increasing

and the proteins are changing a little for easy digestion for the

baby? I'm counting on the grains growing so that I can increase the

amount of real kefir I make each day.

I have two other questions:

First, how do you know if the grains did their job? If they didn't,

then the result would be clabbered milk and I don't think I would

know the difference by sight or by taste.

Second, the baby formula recipe calls for 1/4 cup of whey. I've

been making that by straining kefir using cheesecloth. Can I also

make whey by straining clabbered milk or yogurt or any other

fermented milk product. The whey that I've been using from the kefir

definitely helps him digest the formula. Will other " wheys " work

just as well?

thanks again,

Adele

..................

> @@@@@@@

> > 2. Can I make kefir by adding some already made kefir to fresh

> milk

> > or does it have to be made using the grains?

> @@@@@@@

>

> There is some semantic imprecision to " kefir " revealed by this

> question, but the best answer is definitely " no " , because the

result

> of culturing milk with kefir instead of kefir grains will simply be

a

> different fermented milk product with a different microfloral

> population. It would be a perfectly nice product, but it's hard to

> imagine any situation where a person would be compelled to do this,

> since it would not be a self-sustainable practice like using kefir

> grains. Without the symbiotic microbial population of the grains,

> you'd eventually wind up with something like yogurt or another

> variation on fermented milk. There are studies showing significant

> differences to the results of these two methods of fermenting

milk.

> So use grains!!

>

>

> Mike

> SE Pennsylvania

[Guest guest]

Hi

Kefir powder does not sound like real kefir to me....have you tried real

kefir grains?

Try this list http://www.rejoiceinlife.com/kefir/kefirlist.php there are

many sources of real free kefir...

Abby

Re: kefir questions

Hi Mike,

Thanks for all the info. How did you learn so much about kefir and

other fermented milk products?

Regarding my second question and your response (see below).... I am

wanting to make MORE kefir daily because I am using it as the base

for a baby formula. I need 16 ounces each day right now, plus whey,

and that might go up. My grains ARE making kefir faster now....at

first, it was taking 3 days to get 16 ounces. The way I got around

the problem was to use my last package of kefir powder to make a

batch, then I used that batch to make 3 more batches simultaneously,

and so on. Body Ecology, where I got the powder, said I can do this

up to 7 times. But is that kefir that I am making, or doesn't it

even really matter, as long as the beneficial bacteria are increasing

and the proteins are changing a little for easy digestion for the

baby? I'm counting on the grains growing so that I can increase the

amount of real kefir I make each day.

I have two other questions:

First, how do you know if the grains did their job? If they didn't,

then the result would be clabbered milk and I don't think I would

know the difference by sight or by taste.

Second, the baby formula recipe calls for 1/4 cup of whey. I've

been making that by straining kefir using cheesecloth. Can I also

make whey by straining clabbered milk or yogurt or any other

fermented milk product. The whey that I've been using from the kefir

definitely helps him digest the formula. Will other " wheys " work

just as well?

thanks again,

Adele

..................

> @@@@@@@

> > 2. Can I make kefir by adding some already made kefir to fresh

> milk

> > or does it have to be made using the grains?

> @@@@@@@

>

> There is some semantic imprecision to " kefir " revealed by this

> question, but the best answer is definitely " no " , because the

result

> of culturing milk with kefir instead of kefir grains will simply be

a

> different fermented milk product with a different microfloral

> population. It would be a perfectly nice product, but it's hard to

> imagine any situation where a person would be compelled to do this,

> since it would not be a self-sustainable practice like using kefir

> grains. Without the symbiotic microbial population of the grains,

> you'd eventually wind up with something like yogurt or another

> variation on fermented milk. There are studies showing significant

> differences to the results of these two methods of fermenting

milk.

> So use grains!!

>

>

> Mike

> SE Pennsylvania

[Guest guest]

@@@@@

> Hi Mike,

> Thanks for all the info. How did you learn so much about kefir and

> other fermented milk products?

@@@@@@

In decreasing order of importance:

1. kefir.notlong.com (Dom is the King of Kefir)

2. PubMed, Science Direct, etc

3. local university library

Intuition and experience (a bit over a year) figures in there

somewhere...

@@@@@@@@

> Regarding my second question and your response (see below).... I am

> wanting to make MORE kefir daily because I am using it as the base

> for a baby formula. I need 16 ounces each day right now, plus

whey,

> and that might go up. My grains ARE making kefir faster now....at

> first, it was taking 3 days to get 16 ounces.

@@@@@@@

It shouldn't take 3 days to make kefir unless it's at a fairly cold

temperature. At the height of summer 8 hours is often enough. But

if you mean the initial phase after you got your grains, then that's

a normal one-time thing. You can also make very large batches of

kefir with small amounts of grains, or small batches with large

amounts of grains; the ratios are extremely flexible.

@@@@@@@@

The way I got around

> the problem was to use my last package of kefir powder to make a

> batch, then I used that batch to make 3 more batches

simultaneously,

> and so on. Body Ecology, where I got the powder, said I can do

this

> up to 7 times. But is that kefir that I am making, or doesn't it

> even really matter, as long as the beneficial bacteria are

increasing

> and the proteins are changing a little for easy digestion for the

> baby?

@@@@@@@

Well, for a few rounds I imagine it would only be a moderately

diluted variant on kefir, still with plenty of benefit, though it

might not be fair to call it kefir.

@@@@@

I'm counting on the grains growing so that I can increase the

> amount of real kefir I make each day.

@@@@@

Just feed 'em well. They won't grow as fast as your human baby, but

just remember you can make larger batches with small amounts of

grains.

@@@@@@

> First, how do you know if the grains did their job? If they

didn't,

> then the result would be clabbered milk and I don't think I would

> know the difference by sight or by taste.

@@@@@@

That's a pretty intriguing question! I would guess that if the

grains have survived long enough to make it into your possession,

they will always do their job. It is actually pretty easy to taste

(and even smell--kefir should be a little yeasty) the difference

between clabber and kefir. You can try clabbering a few batches of

milk to compare for yourself. The clabber will be perfectly suitable

for feeding yourself or your baby too. But it's interesting to

speculate that particular instances of ferments could be some kind of

mixture of kefir and clabber, with microbial contributions from

both. In general, though, the critters from kefir tend to be pretty

dominant. I really don't know enough to speculate further, but I

would say fermented is fermented for all practical purposes. I

wouldn't worry about it, but it's theoretically interesting. Your

grains might also eventually change in subtle ways to incorporate

critters from your local milk source. There is significant

variation in the composition of kefir grains depending on their

upbringing and so on.

@@@@@@@

> Second, the baby formula recipe calls for 1/4 cup of whey. I've

> been making that by straining kefir using cheesecloth. Can I also

> make whey by straining clabbered milk or yogurt or any other

> fermented milk product. The whey that I've been using from the

kefir

> definitely helps him digest the formula. Will other " wheys " work

> just as well?

@@@@@@@

Absolutely! I make whey from clabber all the time. I get free skim

milk from local farmers who do the cream/butter thing and I just use

it for the whey and put the curds in my compost bowl. But kefir

whey is still the ultimate, so when you have enough grains just use

them for everything.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

I just started my kefir (from GEM cultures) a couple days ago. I

have strained and restarted it only once so far. What I have now is

a container of milk with the top of the milk covered by a floating

layer of what I would call curds. Are these curds the actual kefir

grains, or is it a mix of curds and grains? When I strained it, all

the curdy stuff was strained out, and the remaining liquid seemed

thinner than I expected. I stirred the culture gently and didn't

shake it before straining. Does this seem right or have I gotten off

the track already?

Marty

[Guest guest]

> I just started my kefir (from GEM cultures) a couple days ago. I

> have strained and restarted it only once so far. What I have now is

> a container of milk with the top of the milk covered by a floating

> layer of what I would call curds. Are these curds the actual kefir

> grains, or is it a mix of curds and grains? When I strained it, all

> the curdy stuff was strained out, and the remaining liquid seemed

> thinner than I expected. I stirred the culture gently and didn't

> shake it before straining. Does this seem right or have I gotten

off

> the track already?

>

> Marty

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Probably a mix of curds and grains. Just gently squeeze the stuff,

and the curds will disintegrate while the grains will offer tactile

resistance. Sometimes kefir is thin, especially with new grains;

just keep changing the milk once you see or taste signs of

fermentation. Give the jar a gentle swish now and again to increase

the exposure of the milk to the grains.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

>. You can try clabbering a few batches of

>milk to compare for yourself. The clabber will be perfectly suitable

>for feeding yourself or your baby too.

This is true IF the milk is raw. If you set pastuerized milk out

it just gets awful, and I sure wouldn't feed it to a baby.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> Probably a mix of curds and grains. Just gently squeeze the

stuff, and the curds will disintegrate while the grains will offer

>tactile resistance.

Thanks, that made it clear! Now I can see what the grains actually

look like. (I need a better strainer.)

Marty

[Guest guest]

> Re: kefir questions

>

>

>

>> Probably a mix of curds and grains. Just gently squeeze the

>stuff, and the curds will disintegrate while the grains will offer

>>tactile resistance.

>

>Thanks, that made it clear! Now I can see what the grains actually

>look like. (I need a better strainer.)

martha, (ok, i guess i have to get used to calling you " marty " ), you don't

have to strain it at all. You can just take a non-metal slotted spoon and

lift the grain out and put it in a new container. Then add milk. it sounds

like you strained out the fat fraction unnecessarily. Nothing should be

*removed* from the kefir other than the grains.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi Marty,

I was puzzled by this at first also. It's just the kefir separating. What I

do is take a plastic spatula, or a wooden spoon, and stir it before

straining. That way the kefir curds and the whey gets mixed back into each

other, and when I strain it, it allows for it all go through except the

kefir grains.

You're on the right track. It just seems that it takes a bit of

experimenting. I've also found that if I put it in the fridge for half of

the kefiring time, that it comes out thicker and creamier. Yum.

~ Fern

Re: kefir questions

> I just started my kefir (from GEM cultures) a couple days ago. I

> have strained and restarted it only once so far. What I have now is

> a container of milk with the top of the milk covered by a floating

> layer of what I would call curds. Are these curds the actual kefir

> grains, or is it a mix of curds and grains? When I strained it, all

> the curdy stuff was strained out, and the remaining liquid seemed

> thinner than I expected. I stirred the culture gently and didn't

> shake it before straining. Does this seem right or have I gotten off

> the track already?

>

> Marty

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Fern " <readnwrite@f...>

wrote:

> I've also found that if I put it in the fridge for half of

> the kefiring time, that it comes out thicker and creamier. Yum.

>

Thanks, Fern, that helped. I have not been able to keep up with the

kefir! It's fermenting faster than I can use it up. It feels like

the sorceror's apprentice as my fridge fills with more and more

containers of very sour kefir. No one else in my family wants to

taste this stuff (except the dog). I think if I leave the culture in

the fridge part time, maybe it will ferment more slowly and I can

get some kind of control on it. (Trying to remember why this seemed

like a good idea...) I think a cup a day is all I can use, so I may

have to prune the grains back - is there some minimum size? and

maybe try to freeze/chill/dehydrate the rest.

marty

[Guest guest]

> I think if I leave the culture in

>the fridge part time, maybe it will ferment more slowly and I can

>get some kind of control on it. (Trying to remember why this seemed

>like a good idea...)

That's what we do when it goes " too fast " . Ah, those were the days,

when we had extra kefir! Now it all gets used up (I could start a new

container, but half a gallon a day SEEMS like it should be enough). Anyway,

just put the grains in fresh milk in the fridge and they'll keep at least

a month or so, plenty of time to catch up.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " darkstardog " <darkstar@...>

>

> > I've also found that if I put it in the fridge for half of

> > the kefiring time, that it comes out thicker and creamier. Yum.

> >

>

> Thanks, Fern, that helped. I have not been able to keep up with the

> kefir! It's fermenting faster than I can use it up. It feels like

> the sorceror's apprentice as my fridge fills with more and more

> containers of very sour kefir. No one else in my family wants to

> taste this stuff (except the dog). I think if I leave the culture in

> the fridge part time, maybe it will ferment more slowly and I can

> get some kind of control on it. (Trying to remember why this seemed

> like a good idea...) I think a cup a day is all I can use, so I may

> have to prune the grains back - is there some minimum size? and

> maybe try to freeze/chill/dehydrate the rest.

You can slow it down by just kefiring it in the fridge, rather than on your

counter. I've left it go several days in the fridge and it was just fine.

Just ended up thicker, but not more sour.

Try using it in smoothies and as a replacement for sour milk in recipes. My

sister blended kefir with frozen blueberries and raw honey and her girls

loved it. Also, the recipes in NT for pancakes and waffles are really good,

and they call for soaking the flour in kefir overnight.

I really enjoy drinking it straight without anything added, but then I'm

also one who loves coffee strong and black. It's a great pick-me-up in

the middle of the afternoon, or anytime really.

~ Fern

[Guest guest]

I've converted my family by making milkshakes with it. Also my toddler will

drink it as purple milk. (3/4 cup kefir, 1/4 cup grape juice)

Kayte

Re: kefir questions

--- In , " Fern " <readnwrite@f...>

wrote:

> I've also found that if I put it in the fridge for half of the

> kefiring time, that it comes out thicker and creamier. Yum.

>

Thanks, Fern, that helped. I have not been able to keep up with the kefir!

It's fermenting faster than I can use it up. It feels like the sorceror's

apprentice as my fridge fills with more and more containers of very sour

kefir. No one else in my family wants to taste this stuff (except the dog).

I think if I leave the culture in the fridge part time, maybe it will

ferment more slowly and I can get some kind of control on it. (Trying to

remember why this seemed like a good idea...) I think a cup a day is all I

can use, so I may have to prune the grains back - is there some minimum

size? and maybe try to freeze/chill/dehydrate the rest.

marty

[Guest guest]

I don't see any answers to your last question. I never put the lid on the

kefir very tight so it can breath. There is some build up of CO2, I think.

Kefir is really not very fussy.

I don't think you'll get a real complex kefir culture without the grains.

Even the starter is a simpler set of organisms, if I remember correctly. The

kefir grains are really quite mysterious. No one invented them. They just

appeared on the scene back in the dark mists of time somewhere in the

steppes of Asia, and were kept as a tribal secret for centuries, I think.

Kris

> I have 3 questions regarding kefir...

>

> 1. What is the difference, in terms of end product, of raw milk that

> has been left out to sour and kefir made from adding raw milk to

> kefir grains?

>

> 2. Can I make kefir by adding some already made kefir to fresh milk

> or does it have to be made using the grains?

>

> 3. How are you supposed to cover the container while the kefir is

> incubating, tightly or loosely? I have 2 different sets of

> directions and they conflict. Do the good bacteria need oxygen in

> order to proliferate? Then, to age the kefir, you are supposed to

> put on a tight lid, right? Why is that?

>

> Thanks.

>

> adele

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> 3. How are you supposed to cover the container while the kefir is

> incubating, tightly or loosely? I have 2 different sets of

> directions and they conflict. Do the good bacteria need oxygen in

> order to proliferate? Then, to age the kefir, you are supposed to

> put on a tight lid, right? Why is that?

>

Hi Adele, I make my kefir in glass preserving jars (the ones with the rubber

rings). Therefore they are airtight. In our warm climate here, it takes 12-24

hours to get lovely thick kefir (just like thick yoghurt). When I open the jar,

gas is released. I've been using my kefir for a year now and it's still going

strong.

Filippa

[Guest guest]

It is legal to sell raw milk in Texas. I think they are limited by how they

can advertise though.

If I were you I would keep PART of my milk grains growing in milk only.

Pasteurized whole milk is fine for propagating your grains. As those

grow you can use the extra grains in nondairy media and for other

experiments.

As for nut and vegetable milks, you can culture your grains alter-

nately in dairy and then nondairy on different days. That way they

will continue to propagate. If you do otherwise they will stop growing.

Milk Grains will continue to grow in a mixed media consisting of

1/2 soymilk and 1/2 dairymilk.

Sweetners are typically NOT added to milk grains when culturing.

Doing so may cause overgrowth of the yeast component of Grains.

If you want to experiment be sure to keep some Grains in reserve.

I understand that viili and piima are better suited to constantly

culturing soymilk/nutmilk whereas kefir milk grains will stop growing

in such media.

Darrell

[Guest guest]

If I were you I would keep PART of my milk grains growing in milk only.

Pasteurized whole milk is fine for propagating your grains. As those

grow you can use the extra grains in nondairy media and for other

experiments.

As for nut and vegetable milks, you can culture your grains alter-

nately in dairy and then nondairy on different days. That way they

will continue to propagate. If you do otherwise they will stop growing.

Milk Grains will continue to grow in a mixed media consisting of

1/2 soymilk and 1/2 dairymilk. - Darrell

---------------

Thanks Darrell. I will keep some grains dairy only. I will also take

your advice and alternate dairy/nondairy culture with the others. I

suppose the worst thing that can happen is I'll have to buy more grains

if I mess up along the way to gaining insight into kefir making.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Thanks Deanna, but this link does not take me to a list but to a

place to send an email. I guess you got the grains from a person and

not a place.

Del

Deanna wrote:

> Yes Del, it was through this list I found dear Michele at

batyhwh@y...

>

> She will respond individually to requests, I do believe.

>

> Blessings,

> Deanna, who is eating prime rib, with kimchi, sour

cream/horseradish and

> beet greens in butter, presently ... and organic syrah, of

course ...

>

> Del Eaton wrote:

>

> >

> > Sorry Deanna, but I missed the place you got your grains from.

Would

> > you mind posting that info?

> >

> > Thanks in advance,

> > Del

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Correct. I secured my grains from a private source. They shipped

immediately, traveled well, and continue to grow.

Deanna

Del Eaton wrote:

>

> Thanks Deanna, but this link does not take me to a list but to a

> place to send an email. I guess you got the grains from a person and

> not a place.

>

> Del

>

> Deanna wrote:

> > Yes Del, it was through this list I found dear Michele at

> batyhwh@y...

[Guest guest]

Thanks Deanna for answering. I certainly had good luck when I

ordered privately a year ago.

I just made an order through G.E.M. I ordered the kefir, villi,

kombucha and the fil mjolk. I have been making kefilli for a year

but lost my grains through a " tragic " accident (It's a long story).

Good advise to keep some separate in some milk but would not have

helped me in my situation. I got the grains from Heidi and they were

great. I would be asking Heidi for some more but I wanted to try the

kefir as well as the kefilli and also I wanted the other so I am

just getting all from G.E.M. cultures.

I don't know how in the world I will be able to keep all this

straight when I am making it! It could be comical!HeeHee.

Del

Deanna wrote:

> Correct. I secured my grains from a private source. They shipped

> immediately, traveled well, and continue to grow.

> Deanna

>

> Del Eaton wrote:

>

> >

> > Thanks Deanna, but this link does not take me to a list but to a

> > place to send an email. I guess you got the grains from a person

and

> > not a place.

> >

> > Del

> >

> > Deanna wrote:

> > > Yes Del, it was through this list I found dear Michele at

> > batyhwh@y...

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You have probably got lots of answers by now, but here's some more.

>

> 1. My grains came in starter and arrived 2 days after shipping.

Now, I

> haven't a good local source of raw milk, Texas laws being what

they are,

> so will use freshly made nut milks, juice etc. mainly. Is this

okay? I

> had read about different grains on Dom's site; milk grains and

> transparent grains (???).

I also don't have a consistent source of raw milk, so I just use

whole pasteurized (not ultra). Some people prefer it that way--you

get a smoother consistency with homogenized milk. I think that milk

is the only medium that they will reproduce in even though you can

use them to ferment a lot of different things.

Now, I did leave one grain in the starter

> milk, which leads me to:

>

> 2. How do I keep my grains happy whilst not in use? Should I

swap out

> the milk? If so, how many days refrigerated is correct? Is

pasturized

> buttermilk okay to use? Most everything out there on the market

is

> ultrapasteurized ultra dead. Should I add some honey or

something?

> (okay, I know, too many questions).

When I am not using my grains, I put them in a little milk and in

the frig. I have kept them several weeks like this with no damage--

it just takes them a couple of days to get back up to speed again.

>

> 3. I made two batches of apple kefir beer a la Heidi. And being

the

> artsy cook I am, I added ginger bits to one. This is fine,

right?

> Heidi did say kefir would grow in just about anything.

Sure, we all experiment. Sounds good--how did it turn out?

>

> 4. To rinse or not to rinse, that is the question? I didn't

rinse,

> btw, going from milk to juice. Dom has much ado about this, but

thought

> your experience might help here, especially in the milk to

juice/nut

> medium that I am pursuing with the majority of my grains.

I don't rinse going from milk to milk, but I rinse before going into

juice. Even so, the first batch in juice tastes a little weird. I

guess it still has some milk carried over.

>

> Any answers and suggestions y'all have are most welcome.

>

> Thank you.

>

> Deanna

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Greetings Folks,

I just joined this list -- and by the way, managing it in gmail is a

lot easier than trying to read it at the website or reading it from a

account.

Deanna, I don't know how far you are from Austin, but at least once a

year I order raw goat's milk yogurt from White Egret Farm out of the

Austin area. You can google her. I live in Daly City, CA (San

Francisco neighbor) and am willing to pay the $20 to have the $18

worth of yogurt shipped from them. They are terriffic.

Marie

>

> 1. My grains came in starter and arrived 2 days after shipping. Now, I

haven't a good local source of raw milk, Texas laws being what they are, so will

use freshly made nut milks, juice etc. mainly. Is this okay? I had read about

different grains on Dom's site; milk grains and transparent grains (???).

[Guest guest]

> Deanna, I don't know how far you are from Austin, but at least once a

> year I order raw goat's milk yogurt from White Egret Farm out of the

> Austin area. You can google her. I live in Daly City, CA (San

> Francisco neighbor) and am willing to pay the $20 to have the $18

> worth of yogurt shipped from them. They are terriffic.

>

> Marie

Marie,

You live in my home state, near my favorite city in the world!

Actually, I have a connection to that very farm and should get some milk

picked up there next week and driven up to my DFW area.

Thank you.

Deanna