Re: Timelines and NLP (Zoe?)

[Guest guest]

Hi Sandy

I cant tell you anything about NLP as I know very little about it

but from an RDI perspective, what you describe would be attributed

to lack of (or difficulties with) episodic memory.

In RDI, episodic memory is built by doing joint activities and

making sure that the important part (the emotional memory bit of the

experience) is encoded by spotlighting for the other person just

before that emotional memory bit is about to happen.

We havent got anywhere near that yet (as you can see from my

inadequately garbled explanation!!) but parents get to the stage

where they are able to 'predict' which parts of an interaction will

hold the emotional meaning for the child as well as being able to

evaluate the extent of their child's EM retention. Parents then

help the child consolidate their episodic memories by integrating

them with prior memories and providing common themes and unifying

labels.

From there, the child learns to use past experiences (encoded via

EM) to inform current and future thinking.

I dont know whether building a timeline would help - from an RDI

prespective, it's the encoding of the emotion that builds the

episodic memory which enables the narrative history to be built.

Not sure that helps.....?

Zoe

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I was just reading again about NLP timelines

>

> http://www.brilliantminds.net/timelines.html

>

> Basically how we view past and future - normally either as behind

and

> out in front, respectively (IN time) or stretching left to right

in

> front of us (THROUGH time).

>

> Asking Tim the questions suggested in the book we realised he

doesn't

> have any timeline at all (being the optimists we are we gave him

one

> to try to use :-)). We remembered Zoe's article from a while ago

> (RDI) about how building a narritive history is something that

> doesn't come easy with autism and wondered if a lack of a time

model

> contributes? Could it be put right by encouraging a

concept/timeline

> to represent time??? Just wondering - would welcome any ideas or

> pointers to where this sort of thing is covered.

>

> ALSO but unrelated ... I've enjoyed learning about NLP and wish we

> could devote more time to it. Through this reading we came across

> Joe 's Hero's Journey - which many of you may be familiar

> with. We weren't and we've found it very interesting. Doesn't

help

> directly with treating autism but puts a lot of things into

context

> somehow.

>

> Best wishes,

> Sandy

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Zoe,

Thanks for a great reply :-)! We really need to look at RDI again

because maybe we can pick up some new " good habits " . Tim and I

broadband quite a bit now (he asks me what's wrong if I tune out and

don't broadband) since we learnt just a little bit about RDI. We think

it is much better for Eddie that we communicate more naturally for him.

We'll have a look at episodic memory too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episodic_memory

Best wishes,

Sandy

[Guest guest]

Could so eone on this list who is using RDI please give us some

pointers as to what it would look like to teach episodic memory? I

have neither the time, money or energy to do RDI right now but woul

dlove to be able to incorporate it into our program of home educaiton.

for example, how to teach a child to tap you on the shoulder to get

your attention, when to use declarative language, etc etc. I have the

books on RDI but they are hard going.

I see it wrapped up money wise, i.e. if you dont go to a consultant,

you have no hope of getting it.

>

> Hi Zoe,

>

> Thanks for a great reply :-)! We really need to look at RDI again

> because maybe we can pick up some new " good habits " . Tim and I

> broadband quite a bit now (he asks me what's wrong if I tune out

and

> don't broadband) since we learnt just a little bit about RDI. We

think

> it is much better for Eddie that we communicate more naturally for

him.

> We'll have a look at episodic memory too.

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episodic_memory

>

> Best wishes,

> Sandy

>

[Guest guest]

Hi BB

I dont think you can teach EM without all the other component parts

of RDI. Its an approach that relies upon layering learning - in the

same way as learning happens intuitively with NT kids through the

guided participation relationship (parent/caregiver interaction in

the early years and childhood that happens naturally).......and you

cant really just jump into it without having done all the antecedent

learning. It would be like expecting someone to do quadratic

equations without ever teaching them algebra.

Re 'Could someone on this list who is using RDI please give us some

pointers as to what it would look like to teach episodic memory?'

perhaps there is someone else on this list who is up to this stage

in RDI - we havent got to the EM bit yet so I cant give any

pointers. Also to get to EM you would have to be up to stage 4/5 in

your parent learning.......and so would have to have mastered all

the other stages or it wont work. I am certainly not qualified

to 'teach' anyone all that plus I work part time, run a home

programme, am heavily involved in local campaigning and currently

have grant applications for RDI projects (and one on my 'to do' list

for TA) coming out of every orifice.

Sorry - I know thats not the response you want. You can get RDI

funded through Caudwell now - it may be possible to get both biomed

and RDI depending on income.

Zoe

> >

> > Hi Zoe,

> >

> > Thanks for a great reply :-)! We really need to look at RDI

again

> > because maybe we can pick up some new " good habits " . Tim and I

> > broadband quite a bit now (he asks me what's wrong if I tune out

> and

> > don't broadband) since we learnt just a little bit about RDI.

We

> think

> > it is much better for Eddie that we communicate more naturally

for

> him.

> > We'll have a look at episodic memory too.

> >

> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episodic_memory

> >

> > Best wishes,

> > Sandy

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Sandy

Excuse me chiming in - I'm really interested in this. Its a real

tough one, mindbender. You need a philosopher on the job really!

Totally, you need to understand the concept of time before you can

narrate or understand narration effectively. My background is I

studied English and Linguistics at Uni before becoming a teacher.

NT kids just pick up these concepts as they go along, learning from

experience, but obviously it needs to be taught with our kids. My

ten cents follows.

If NT kids learn from experience, it makes sense to teach concepts of

time within the child's motivation, i.e. only to teach the most

amazingly cool experiences and likes, to anchor firmly in the memory.

Where I come from is that with my child, motivation is everything.

Therefore because that's not always naturally in place, to please me,

to get him to read I have to teach him how useful that can be (to get

what he wants from the shop, read from a list and write the words,

that kind of thing).

I think the lack of narrative history with some kids is more about

their problem with sequencing full stop and with imagining

abstractions. Your guideline might be how much your child can

sequence and visualise in steps, how complex your instructions are,

and how age appropriate your expectations are.

Teaching time to a child, say, with any or residual short and long-

term memory problems only makes this more difficult but nevertheless

you have to try and I applaud you for taking that on.

To teach him to visualise time you are asking him to do three things

simultaneously. First, take a point in time, second estimate where

that point is, third use his sense of direction in an abstract way to

envisage the future and the past. But he needs anchors to help him

on the timeline. Those anchors are the language of time and your pre-

requisites. I believe teaching time to be about estimation and

expectation and totally learned from experience.

How old is your little boy? I've taught kids from 6-18 in my

career. A lot of time is about control, therefore the vocabulary is

more vague, because parents dictate how long that time is " We'll go

to the shops Soon " " You can have sweets later " . Your younger kids on

that scale - five minutes to them is an hour. Grown ups are in

control. That's where their brains are. That is their world. From

12+ enter the boredom factor. Time is still endless, its ages till

they have to get a job/go to uni, but kids also chronically

underestimate how much time they need. But they learn to prioritise

so they can get what they want in an ideal world, because they learn

time isn't finite. At this point they are cramming their lives full

and quite right too. They have some control of what's going on,

unlike when they are younger.

I don't know much about RDI yet, I'm looking at it but for our son

finding Floortime techniques more effective at the moment. But as

RDI does ask for more declarative language, if you're using that

technique to teach, then much of how time is traditionally taught is

via imperative language, because its about the demands made on you.

To repeat, its control of others and control from yourself and how

you balance that. On my list is to look at the RDI take on this,

because I suspect it will be based on the child using dynamic

intelligence to figure out where his place in all this is, and that I

think will be the most enlightening way to teach and the one that

will stick, because its more experiential.

Many kids about 6 - 9 have a very befuddled sense of what time is.

They seem to know:

How long it is until important events are going to happen: they count

in days, or bedtimes.

Addition and subtraction: more and less. Eg. We haven't got time to

play World Chess now because its your bedtime in five minutes " .

Longer and Shorter.

" Five minutes and that's it "

" A long, long time ago... "

" Now "

" Later "

" Never " (never put your Mother's credit card in the DVD again!)

" Taking ages "

" Hurry up " " Be Quick " " Get a move on " " We don't have time to do

that "

" Speak more slowly, Run faster

" Today " " Morning " and " Afternoon "

" Yesterday "

" Tomorrow " (When I wake up)

Conditional If and then. E.g. If its not raining, then we can go to

the park after lunch.

Occasions: Christmas/Easter/Halloween/Bonfire Night/Birthday

" When I grow up "

Also the possibilities of time - of how things " might " happen, then

again, they " might " not. " Sometimes " and " Perhaps "

I haven't got to the timeline yet with my Son. But I think if you

are going to use a timeline, the above are the main pre-requisites,

together with an ability to refer back and remember recent events,

i.e. What did you do today, kind of questions, which you can then

introduce in stories and recollections and use visuals to build an

appreciation of how it all fits together.

My son is so visual that he got all these concepts very quickly (and

recently, he's 6) when we started using a calendar with him. Note we

didn't use an autism one. There's a great one made by and

Doug. wooden, with all sorts of magnets and stuff. Well worth the

money and a google. I started by using extremely motivating events

on the calendar only. I find these are the things that work, that he

can relate to.

Looking back, a better way to have done it would have been to make

the most motivating day for him, and to allot times to two or three

really motivating experiences whilst using clear language. I did

this in retrospect after the calendar.

When I taught in primary school, I had this game where I used to sit

the kids down and make them guess how long a minute was. Then five

minutes. The answers varied enormously! You could prompt this kind

of knowledge from a clock on a computer or laptop screen with an

alarm. Or if his reading skills are good, highlight his favourite TV

programme in a newspaper and tell him when its on and relate to the

clock, if he can tell the time.

Next year? A lifetime away in their eyes. I suspect from how you

are discussing this that your son already has all or some of these

skills so - are you trying to teach him a sense of history? This

really doesn't get grasped by children early, although it is force-

fed to them, many don't get it in mhy experience for a long time, it

is just " another story " only this one " really happened " .

One way of doing it would be to do a powerpoint presentation of his

timeline from a baby to where he is now and introduce what he might

be doing in a few months, in conjunction with a calendar.

I guess it was optimistic to give him a timeline, but at least you

know what you need to teach now. Its the only way we do find out most

of the time. And from all accounts he's a lovely boy who is doing

exceptionally well!

HTH thank you for raising the subject. Useful for me to re-clarify my

thinking and to hear some other people's experiences. I hope some

people with RDI experience share their thoughts.

Eileen

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I was just reading again about NLP timelines

>

> http://www.brilliantminds.net/timelines.html

>

> Basically how we view past and future - normally either as behind

and

> out in front, respectively (IN time) or stretching left to right in

> front of us (THROUGH time).

>

> Asking Tim the questions suggested in the book we realised he

doesn't

> have any timeline at all (being the optimists we are we gave him

one

> to try to use :-)). We remembered Zoe's article from a while ago

> (RDI) about how building a narritive history is something that

> doesn't come easy with autism and wondered if a lack of a time

model

> contributes? Could it be put right by encouraging a

concept/timeline

> to represent time??? Just wondering - would welcome any ideas or

> pointers to where this sort of thing is covered.

>

> ALSO but unrelated ... I've enjoyed learning about NLP and wish we

> could devote more time to it. Through this reading we came across

> Joe 's Hero's Journey - which many of you may be familiar

> with. We weren't and we've found it very interesting. Doesn't

help

> directly with treating autism but puts a lot of things into context

> somehow.

>

> Best wishes,

> Sandy

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Sandy

Excuse me chiming in - I'm really interested in this. Its a real

tough one, mindbender. You need a philosopher on the job really!

Totally, you need to understand the concept of time before you can

narrate or understand narration effectively. My background is I

studied English and Linguistics at Uni before becoming a teacher.

NT kids just pick up these concepts as they go along, learning from

experience, but obviously it needs to be taught with our kids. My

ten cents follows.

If NT kids learn from experience, it makes sense to teach concepts of

time within the child's motivation, i.e. only to teach the most

amazingly cool experiences and likes, to anchor firmly in the memory.

Where I come from is that with my child, motivation is everything.

Therefore because that's not always naturally in place, to please me,

to get him to read I have to teach him how useful that can be (to get

what he wants from the shop, read from a list and write the words,

that kind of thing).

I think the lack of narrative history with some kids is more about

their problem with sequencing full stop and with imagining

abstractions. Your guideline might be how much your child can

sequence and visualise in steps, how complex your instructions are,

and how age appropriate your expectations are.

Teaching time to a child, say, with any or residual short and long-

term memory problems only makes this more difficult but nevertheless

you have to try and I applaud you for taking that on.

To teach him to visualise time you are asking him to do three things

simultaneously. First, take a point in time, second estimate where

that point is, third use his sense of direction in an abstract way to

envisage the future and the past. But he needs anchors to help him

on the timeline. Those anchors are the language of time and your pre-

requisites. I believe teaching time to be about estimation and

expectation and totally learned from experience.

How old is your little boy? I've taught kids from 6-18 in my

career. A lot of time is about control, therefore the vocabulary is

more vague, because parents dictate how long that time is " We'll go

to the shops Soon " " You can have sweets later " . Your younger kids on

that scale - five minutes to them is an hour. Grown ups are in

control. That's where their brains are. That is their world. From

12+ enter the boredom factor. Time is still endless, its ages till

they have to get a job/go to uni, but kids also chronically

underestimate how much time they need. But they learn to prioritise

so they can get what they want in an ideal world, because they learn

time isn't finite. At this point they are cramming their lives full

and quite right too. They have some control of what's going on,

unlike when they are younger.

I don't know much about RDI yet, I'm looking at it but for our son

finding Floortime techniques more effective at the moment. But as

RDI does ask for more declarative language, if you're using that

technique to teach, then much of how time is traditionally taught is

via imperative language, because its about the demands made on you.

To repeat, its control of others and control from yourself and how

you balance that. On my list is to look at the RDI take on this,

because I suspect it will be based on the child using dynamic

intelligence to figure out where his place in all this is, and that I

think will be the most enlightening way to teach and the one that

will stick, because its more experiential.

Many kids about 6 - 9 have a very befuddled sense of what time is.

They seem to know:

How long it is until important events are going to happen: they count

in days, or bedtimes.

Addition and subtraction: more and less. Eg. We haven't got time to

play World Chess now because its your bedtime in five minutes " .

Longer and Shorter.

" Five minutes and that's it "

" A long, long time ago... "

" Now "

" Later "

" Never " (never put your Mother's credit card in the DVD again!)

" Taking ages "

" Hurry up " " Be Quick " " Get a move on " " We don't have time to do

that "

" Speak more slowly, Run faster

" Today " " Morning " and " Afternoon "

" Yesterday "

" Tomorrow " (When I wake up)

Conditional If and then. E.g. If its not raining, then we can go to

the park after lunch.

Occasions: Christmas/Easter/Halloween/Bonfire Night/Birthday

" When I grow up "

Also the possibilities of time - of how things " might " happen, then

again, they " might " not. " Sometimes " and " Perhaps "

I haven't got to the timeline yet with my Son. But I think if you

are going to use a timeline, the above are the main pre-requisites,

together with an ability to refer back and remember recent events,

i.e. What did you do today, kind of questions, which you can then

introduce in stories and recollections and use visuals to build an

appreciation of how it all fits together.

My son is so visual that he got all these concepts very quickly (and

recently, he's 6) when we started using a calendar with him. Note we

didn't use an autism one. There's a great one made by and

Doug. wooden, with all sorts of magnets and stuff. Well worth the

money and a google. I started by using extremely motivating events

on the calendar only. I find these are the things that work, that he

can relate to.

Looking back, a better way to have done it would have been to make

the most motivating day for him, and to allot times to two or three

really motivating experiences whilst using clear language. I did

this in retrospect after the calendar.

When I taught in primary school, I had this game where I used to sit

the kids down and make them guess how long a minute was. Then five

minutes. The answers varied enormously! You could prompt this kind

of knowledge from a clock on a computer or laptop screen with an

alarm. Or if his reading skills are good, highlight his favourite TV

programme in a newspaper and tell him when its on and relate to the

clock, if he can tell the time.

Next year? A lifetime away in their eyes. I suspect from how you

are discussing this that your son already has all or some of these

skills so - are you trying to teach him a sense of history? This

really doesn't get grasped by children early, although it is force-

fed to them, many don't get it in mhy experience for a long time, it

is just " another story " only this one " really happened " .

One way of doing it would be to do a powerpoint presentation of his

timeline from a baby to where he is now and introduce what he might

be doing in a few months, in conjunction with a calendar.

I guess it was optimistic to give him a timeline, but at least you

know what you need to teach now. Its the only way we do find out most

of the time. And from all accounts he's a lovely boy who is doing

exceptionally well!

HTH thank you for raising the subject. Useful for me to re-clarify my

thinking and to hear some other people's experiences. I hope some

people with RDI experience share their thoughts.

Eileen

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I was just reading again about NLP timelines

>

> http://www.brilliantminds.net/timelines.html

>

> Basically how we view past and future - normally either as behind

and

> out in front, respectively (IN time) or stretching left to right in

> front of us (THROUGH time).

>

> Asking Tim the questions suggested in the book we realised he

doesn't

> have any timeline at all (being the optimists we are we gave him

one

> to try to use :-)). We remembered Zoe's article from a while ago

> (RDI) about how building a narritive history is something that

> doesn't come easy with autism and wondered if a lack of a time

model

> contributes? Could it be put right by encouraging a

concept/timeline

> to represent time??? Just wondering - would welcome any ideas or

> pointers to where this sort of thing is covered.

>

> ALSO but unrelated ... I've enjoyed learning about NLP and wish we

> could devote more time to it. Through this reading we came across

> Joe 's Hero's Journey - which many of you may be familiar

> with. We weren't and we've found it very interesting. Doesn't

help

> directly with treating autism but puts a lot of things into context

> somehow.

>

> Best wishes,

> Sandy

>

[Guest guest]

A brilliant reply Zoe. Thank you. I have learned a lot from your hard-

earned knowledge.

However a bit scary in parts, I'm glad I didn't ask any questions.

Think I'll go back to me books now.

Night night all.

Eileen

[Guest guest]

A brilliant reply Zoe. Thank you. I have learned a lot from your hard-

earned knowledge.

However a bit scary in parts, I'm glad I didn't ask any questions.

Think I'll go back to me books now.

Night night all.

Eileen

[Guest guest]

Glad my reply was useful. Can I ask what was the scary part?....is

that me being scary (?? hope not but do tell me if it is because I

need to know so that I can be unscary) or was it the information that

was scary?

Zoe

>

> A brilliant reply Zoe. Thank you. I have learned a lot from your

hard-

> earned knowledge.

>

> However a bit scary in parts, I'm glad I didn't ask any questions.

> Think I'll go back to me books now.

>

> Night night all.

>

> Eileen

>

[Guest guest]

Glad my reply was useful. Can I ask what was the scary part?....is

that me being scary (?? hope not but do tell me if it is because I

need to know so that I can be unscary) or was it the information that

was scary?

Zoe

>

> A brilliant reply Zoe. Thank you. I have learned a lot from your

hard-

> earned knowledge.

>

> However a bit scary in parts, I'm glad I didn't ask any questions.

> Think I'll go back to me books now.

>

> Night night all.

>

> Eileen

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Eileen,

Thanks so much for a really great reply. I've had to read it a

couple of times there are so many important points. I think I

understand better about the complexity of putting ourselves in time.

It's quite hard for us because we didn't do any formal therapy (and

because we are engineers).

Our boy, Eddie, has fully recovered but we watch carefully and look

for anything at all we can help with. While he shows no deficits, we

are committed to helping him communicate and to feel and empathise as

much as is humanly possible. I'm afraid it is Tim, Eddie's dad, that

has no timeline. Both Tim and I are ASD and we are very keen that

our deficits don't get in the way of Eddie's continuing development.

I have a profoundly poor sense of time (I'm sure it was one of the

major impediments between me and cooking -- I simply couldn't get

things ready and cooked at the same time)- but I am at least in time

and have a strong timeline. Tim doesn't have a sense of personal

history. Your post has given us some ideas that we can try - and try

all together as a family. We'll start with the minute guessing :-)

But I think we could also ask each other more about events and place

them in personal context too.

Best wishes,

sandy

[Guest guest]

>

>

> When I taught in primary school, I had this game where I used to

sit

> the kids down and make them guess how long a minute was. Then five

> minutes. The answers varied enormously!

I have absolutely nothing of value to add (note this isn't stopping

me from replying!!), but this did remind me of a rather cool

experiment I read about.

The researcher wanted to test whether or not time does slow down

during traumatizing/fearful events, as people will so often comment

( " It was like I was in slow motion " , etc). So, he had people who

were afraid of heights bunjy jump wearing a watch that showed

numbers, but too fast to read if you were looking at the watch under

normal circumstances.

Amazingly, while falling (and in fear for their lives) the jumpers

could read and report all the numbers flashing on the watch. The

researcher wasn't able to get many volunteers (having a great fear of

heights myself, I don't know how he got even one!) but the

experiment's results were very interesting to me.

Time is a very elastic concept, in many ways, I suppose.

Anita

[Guest guest]

great to talk to you sandy and keep in touch x nina.You gave me some clarity

Subject: Re: Timelines and NLP (Zoe?)To: Autism-Biomedical-Europe Date: Wednesday, 3 December, 2008, 11:55 AM

Dear Eileen,Thanks so much for a really great reply. I've had to read it a couple of times there are so many important points. I think I understand better about the complexity of putting ourselves in time. It's quite hard for us because we didn't do any formal therapy (and because we are engineers).Our boy, Eddie, has fully recovered but we watch carefully and look for anything at all we can help with. While he shows no deficits, we are committed to helping him communicate and to feel and empathise as much as is humanly possible. I'm afraid it is Tim, Eddie's dad, that has no timeline. Both Tim and I are ASD and we are very keen that our deficits don't get in the way of Eddie's continuing development. I have a profoundly poor sense of time (I'm sure it was one of the major impediments between me and cooking -- I simply couldn't get things ready and cooked at the same time)- but I am at

least in time and have a strong timeline. Tim doesn't have a sense of personal history. Your post has given us some ideas that we can try - and try all together as a family. We'll start with the minute guessing :-) But I think we could also ask each other more about events and place them in personal context too.Best wishes,sandy

[Guest guest]

Hi Anita>

> The researcher wanted to test whether or not time does slow down

> during traumatizing/fearful events, as people will so often comment

> ( " It was like I was in slow motion " , etc).

I've experienced this, in a car accident when I was 8 years old. A

wheel came off and the car seemed to continue in slow motion bouncing

over and over until it stopped. A friend who was in a head on collision

had this also, when it seemed like forever before the cars actually hit

x

[Guest guest]

I experienced this when I was 3 yrs old. I fell into a swimming pool on

holiday and the whole experience was in slow motion, falling to the

bottom of the pool , floating about what seemed like an endless amount

of time...No panic whatsoever. The whole experience lasted just a few

seconds before someone dived in. Still remeber it vividly.

Helen x

>

> Hi Anita>

> > The researcher wanted to test whether or not time does slow down

> > during traumatizing/fearful events, as people will so often comment

> > ( " It was like I was in slow motion " , etc).

>

> I've experienced this, in a car accident when I was 8 years old. A

> wheel came off and the car seemed to continue in slow motion bouncing

> over and over until it stopped. A friend who was in a head on

collision

> had this also, when it seemed like forever before the cars actually

hit

>

> x

>