Re: attitude problem with vegans

March 16, 2004

Elaine,

A friend and I were talking about this the other day. We both said that the

problem was their pushing their agenda on everyone. And when we (my friend and

I ) were vegan we kept our mouths shut and didn't try to make our agenda

everyone elses. That's the only problem I have with vegans.

If they want to drink soymilk up the kazoo that's going be their problem in

the long run, not mine.

Elainie

March 16, 2004

I'm hoping someone more enlightened than myself on this list can offer some

words of advice. I have read scores (maybe as many as 100) of first-hand

accounts of veganism causing illness and malnutrition in adults and

children. Hence I have some very definite, very negative opinions on

veganism. Add to that the nasty treatment i've gotten from vegans and their

most unfriendly propoganda.

Here is my dilemma: I live in probably the most vegan city in the US and I

live in cohousing. Living in cohousing means living along with vegans and

having to abide by vegan rules for common meals (although we can make meat

dishes too). Today we had a nice couple come look at our community and when

i learned they were vegan i just thought, oh great.

I need to make peace with my vehement anti-veganism. I need to let it go.

Honestly, there are lots of vegans out there who look fine -- i am getting

just one side of the story, no? Anyway, just fishing for responses from

people who have made peace with the vegans in their lives.

Elaine

March 16, 2004

well, this is not going to be terribly helpful, but my experience is that

there's not any way to make peace over food. you may stop fighting over

food, but you won't stop stewing. every time you look at their food and

every time they look at yours, both of you will judge the other (only,

you'll be the one who's right.)

personally, i'd look for a new co-housing situation. or? move to a farm. or

both.

-katja

>I need to make peace with my vehement anti-veganism. I need to let it go.

>Honestly, there are lots of vegans out there who look fine -- i am getting

>just one side of the story, no? Anyway, just fishing for responses from

>people who have made peace with the vegans in their lives.

>Elaine

March 16, 2004

Deb, I happened to have made an EFT appt. although i have to wait until May

as the practitioner is so booked. It didn't occur to me to use it for

veganism, LOL.

Elainie, you make a great point. I have no problem hanging out and eating

with SAD folks or even vegetarians. I think it is the political nature of

veganism that makes it hard to deal with. How i would love to live on a

farm! Sadly cohousing attracts a lot of vegans because it is fashionably

leftist.

Elaine

> This is a rather off topic suggestion, but one I've found useful for

> all sorts of things. It's called Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT),

> also known as " tapping " , and is really easy to learn.

March 16, 2004

Hi Elaine,

This is a rather off topic suggestion, but one I've found useful for

all sorts of things. It's called Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT),

also known as " tapping " , and is really easy to learn.

Back when I was about 8, my teacher told my mother I had no patience

for fools. Up till a year or so ago, I would have said that was

still true. But by regularly tapping on various issues, I've become

much more tolerant.

I don't pretend to be more enlightened <g>, but on a pratical level,

I;ve found it a really useful tool. It's specially helpful in those

sorts of situations where you *know* that it;s your problem, and the

other person didn't do anything wrong, but can't help feeling upset

about something.

The website is http://www.emofree.com and you can email me if you

want to ask more.

Deb

--- In , " Elaine " <itchyink@s...>

wrote:

> I'm hoping someone more enlightened than myself on this list can

offer some

> words of advice. I have read scores (maybe as many as 100) of

first-hand

> accounts of veganism causing illness and malnutrition in adults and

> children. Hence I have some very definite, very negative opinions

on

> veganism. Add to that the nasty treatment i've gotten from vegans

and their

> most unfriendly propoganda.

March 16, 2004

Tell them everyone is different and that everyone needs to respect their own

cultural way of eating.

Honestly if they ark up they are right idiots. There is a big difference to

eating 1 way and not accepting other cultures and how they were brought up

to eat ect.

Also it was noted on this list before as to how many ANIMALS get needless

killed ( not for food )

To allow them to eat legumes en masse :-)

_____

From: Elaine [mailto:itchyink@...]

Sent: Wednesday, 17 March 2004 10:27 AM

Subject: Re: attitude problem with vegans

I'm hoping someone more enlightened than myself on this list can offer some

words of advice. I have read scores (maybe as many as 100) of first-hand

accounts of veganism causing illness and malnutrition in adults and

children. Hence I have some very definite, very negative opinions on

veganism. Add to that the nasty treatment i've gotten from vegans and their

most unfriendly propoganda.

Here is my dilemma: I live in probably the most vegan city in the US and I

live in cohousing. Living in cohousing means living along with vegans and

having to abide by vegan rules for common meals (although we can make meat

dishes too). Today we had a nice couple come look at our community and when

i learned they were vegan i just thought, oh great.

I need to make peace with my vehement anti-veganism. I need to let it go.

Honestly, there are lots of vegans out there who look fine -- i am getting

just one side of the story, no? Anyway, just fishing for responses from

people who have made peace with the vegans in their lives.

Elaine

March 16, 2004

Quoting Deb <deb@...>:

> Back when I was about 8, my teacher told my mother I had no patience

> for fools. Up till a year or so ago, I would have said that was

> still true. But by regularly tapping on various issues, I've become

> much more tolerant.

Well, you know what the Book of Exodus says about suffering a fool to live.

--

Berg

bberg@...

March 17, 2004

> Here is my dilemma: I live in probably the most vegan city in the

US and I

> live in cohousing. Living in cohousing means living along with

vegans and

> having to abide by vegan rules for common meals (although we can

make meat

> dishes too). Today we had a nice couple come look at our community

and when

> i learned they were vegan i just thought, oh great.

Oh, this is just too funny! I was just looking into cohousing

yesterday, and this was one of the issues that I was thinking

about. I'm afraid I really don't have any advice, but I can

sympathize!

Ghislaine

March 17, 2004

In a message dated 3/17/04 2:15:36 PM, wanitawa@... writes:

>

> See somewhat of an oxymoron. This isn't a judgement. More a perspective.

> Progressive people tend to be very liberal in view and accepting of all

> kinds of people but also very fixed to not accepting anything that falls out

> of the ways they've adopted to live by. Achieving total health is a

> progressive principle. If its not recognized that not everyone can be

> totally healthy from the same sources then its not accepting people for who

> they are. More importantly in principle of self awareness, what one knows

> they need to eat to be healthy.

>

That's an excellent summery Wanita. Thanks for sharimg that.

Elainie

>

March 17, 2004

Elaine,

See somewhat of an oxymoron. This isn't a judgement. More a perspective.

Progressive people tend to be very liberal in view and accepting of all

kinds of people but also very fixed to not accepting anything that falls out

of the ways they've adopted to live by. Achieving total health is a

progressive principle. If its not recognized that not everyone can be

totally healthy from the same sources then its not accepting people for who

they are. More importantly in principle of self awareness, what one knows

they need to eat to be healthy.

Wanita

March 17, 2004

Adopting a " we are better than they " philosophy is just plain unhealthy, no

matter what you believe. There are a lot of NT people that are just as

judgmental and self righteous as " those vegans " . Ah well, just human

nature. I for one believe that my diet is " better " than my vegan friends,

though I try not to debate it. As we all know, this goes with religion in

the passion it inflicts in people.

-Terry

Re: attitude problem with vegans

> Elaine,

>

> See somewhat of an oxymoron. This isn't a judgement. More a perspective.

> Progressive people tend to be very liberal in view and accepting of all

> kinds of people but also very fixed to not accepting anything that falls

out

> of the ways they've adopted to live by. Achieving total health is a

> progressive principle. If its not recognized that not everyone can be

> totally healthy from the same sources then its not accepting people for

who

> they are. More importantly in principle of self awareness, what one knows

> they need to eat to be healthy.

>

March 17, 2004

So true! Like to think I'm beyond being passionate against any diet now

other than SAD just because its healthy to think about and know what you

eat.

Wanita

> Adopting a " we are better than they " philosophy is just plain unhealthy,

no

> matter what you believe. There are a lot of NT people that are just as

> judgmental and self righteous as " those vegans " . Ah well, just human

> nature. I for one believe that my diet is " better " than my vegan friends,

> though I try not to debate it. As we all know, this goes with religion in

> the passion it inflicts in people.

>

> -Terry

March 17, 2004

Terry, i agree and this is *my* problem. I do feel an NT diet is better and,

only with vegans for some reason do i feel judgmental and self-righteous. I

like living in community but it means making peace with sometimes wildly

opposing viewpoints, or at least living peaceably with them. I think i'm

somewhat scared of vegans is the problem. I hate conflict and getting

attacked and i find the whole vegan propoganda so antagonistic so i assume

every vegan is like that, which is most likely not the case.

elaine

> Adopting a " we are better than they " philosophy is just plain unhealthy, no

> matter what you believe. There are a lot of NT people that are just as

> judgmental and self righteous as " those vegans " . Ah well, just human

> nature. I for one believe that my diet is " better " than my vegan friends,

> though I try not to debate it. As we all know, this goes with religion in

> the passion it inflicts in people.

>

March 17, 2004

Elaine,

Do you have a common kitchen? Has anyone shown any dislike or disagreement

with your diet? Understand how knowledge of vegan staunchness could make you

feel threatened. Love peace and hate conflict myself. When I break that its

almost always because there's something imposing it's will on another and

whatever it is could harm more than help the other. If you feel unwelcome or

apprehensive because of the difference try to not let it interfere

emotionally with enjoying your food as that's very unhealthy. Is some change

going on here among local vegans. Dairy and eggs were no no's but now some

are going gluten free too. Something more on common ground to discuss if it

looks like real communication is an option.

Wanita

> Terry, i agree and this is *my* problem. I do feel an NT diet is better

and,

> only with vegans for some reason do i feel judgmental and self-righteous.

I

> like living in community but it means making peace with sometimes wildly

> opposing viewpoints, or at least living peaceably with them. I think i'm

> somewhat scared of vegans is the problem. I hate conflict and getting

> attacked and i find the whole vegan propoganda so antagonistic so i assume

> every vegan is like that, which is most likely not the case.

> elaine

March 17, 2004

>I hate conflict and getting

>attacked and i find the whole vegan propoganda so antagonistic so i assume

>every vegan is like that, which is most likely not the case.

>elaine

I've had a few vegetarians in our company, and since we share

lunch, it gets personal! We've had other folks with dietary

restrictions, but the vegies tend to be really judgemental, which

might be the problem. I mean, when you eat a nice rare steak

in front of one, they stare like you were a child molester or

mass murderer. When I talk to, say, orthodox Jews, they just

figure they are " Kosher " and so therefore special, but they don't

give a rip what I eat, which works fine for me.

I tend to be very empathetic toward animals, and I have a few

around ... the concept of eating one you are empathetic with

is really a stretch, and sometimes I feel like " Stranger in a Strange

Land " ... but it is the world we live in. I'd rather eat someone I

know than shove the responsibility off to some feedlot.

(am I dating myself? Has anyone read Stranger in a Strange Land?).

--- Heidi Jean

March 18, 2004

Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

> I tend to be very empathetic toward animals, and I have a few

> around ... the concept of eating one you are empathetic with

> is really a stretch, and sometimes I feel like " Stranger in a Strange

> Land " ... but it is the world we live in. I'd rather eat someone I

> know than shove the responsibility off to some feedlot.

>

> (am I dating myself? Has anyone read Stranger in a Strange Land?).

Of course! What self-respecting technolibertarian hasn't? I liked " Time

Enough for Love " better, though. That one was almost good enough to make

up for " I Will Fear no Evil, " which was basically a pornographic novel

with all the fun parts glossed over.

March 18, 2004

>I hate conflict and getting

>attacked and i find the whole vegan propoganda so antagonistic so i assume

>every vegan is like that, which is most likely not the case.

>elaine

>>I've had a few vegetarians in our company, and since we share

>>lunch, it gets personal! --- Heidi Jean

I was mostly vegetarian for 8 years and vegan twice for 6 months stretches.

I only started eating meat again since THIS January. So this is what I

think as a former vegan.

Vegan ideology is based on an unattainable goal of a peaceable kingdom on

earth for all - going back to the Garden of Eden, so to speak. Usually

animal rights ethics are as much a concern as health, and unfortunately,

those providing the health reasons for veganism are not at all honest about

human health, www.pcrm.org being a prime example. Also, many vegans force

an unnatural vegan diet on their companion animals, which is very unethical

from my point of view (even when my point of view was vegan). Idealism

rules the vegan world.

So have pity on the poor vegans. Many of them are really caring

individuals, but have been misinformed. Once they buy into the vegan dogma,

it may be very difficult for them to question it or shake it off - just like

with SOME religious types or other narrow minded individuals.

Finding common ground with NTers and vegans is not necessarily so difficult,

as factory farms and environmental degradation are concerns for both

parties. And approaching diet from the perspective that 1) it IS

individual, 2) we can thrive on a wide variety of eating plans and have for

millions of years, and 3) there IS no one size fits all, keeps everything on

a broad continuum like a rheostat, rather than an a/c switch that is either

on or off, right or wrong.

Mike's open approach to the cholesterol question can be very applicable here

with meat (or animal foods in general):

" Yeah, we should definitely eat cholesterol, and yeah,

saturated fats are probably harmless, but that's not the full breadth

of the cholesterol topic, so when some of us WAPFers bundle

everything together and haughtily repudiate the topic, it's almost as

bad as the cholesterol fear-mongers who probably get nervous just

eating foods that were prepared in the same kitchen as something with

cholesterol in it. " - Mike

It all boils down to pride and self righteousness when people can't get

along dietarily. So just don't expect to share cooking utensils steeped in

death and misery with many vegans :-)

Deanna

March 18, 2004

At 11:14 PM 3/17/04 -0800, you wrote:

> (am I dating myself? Has anyone read Stranger in a Strange Land?).

Many times.

MFJ

Any moment in which you feel like dancing is a perfect moment. Singing

works, too.

March 18, 2004

Hi Elaine...

I hope that this will not seem to harsh, but given the food politics and the

inability of most people including vegans and vegetarians to have any sense left

to their brain function, and given the fact that when we run out of oil and

revert to organics and do not have the ability to feed everyone for a while, let

em go....... there will be only enough food for about 45% of the current world

population and given the health status of our fore mentioned group it is assured

they will not reproduce in large numbers.

Help those who come to you, let the rest languise in the attitudes that is of

their choice.

Tim

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:

/

b..

March 18, 2004

i agree with most of what you have said except for the point about being able to

agree with vegans that there is no one perfect diet. from my personal

experience of being vegan, i think that the way most of the material is

presented in many books and magazines leads one to believe that it is the only

way for everybody and that leads to many vegans (myself once upon a time!)

becoming very righteous about the diet and thinking that all who are not on it

are sort of doomed and ignorant. i'm sure not everyone's take at all but

certainly the one that my dh and i adopted and a view similar to the two other

vegans i knew here in town.

Deanna <nativenutrition@...> wrote:>I hate conflict and getting