Re: Botulism and fermentation

[Guest guest]

>So, I just read through our local free paper Seven Days. They have a

syndicated column by Cecil called The Straight Dope. This week's article

featured a question about Alaskans fermenting in Tupperware. I wanted to share

it here because there is a quote from the Anchorage Daily News about the raise

in botulism cases that i though was interesting.

>

><http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040319.html>http://www.straightdope.com/co\

lumns/040319.html

>

>Ghislaine

OK, now it says this about anaerobic bacteria:

* Anaerobic bacteria--that is, those that thrive in oxygen-free

environments--are among the most virulent known. One such bacterium is

Clostridium botulinum, producer of deadly botulism toxin. Other clostridia to

watch out for include C. tetani, which causes tetanus, and C. perfringens, which

gets into wounds and causes gas gangrene, an affliction that's as bad as it

sounds. Anaerobic bacteria are the ones that make improperly sterilized canned

goods puff up like a football. Food in this condition should be destroyed

immediately, unless you're serving brunch to Osama bin Laden.

Now I read this basic idea back when I was first making kimchi. Kimchi (and most

other fermented products) ARE made in an anaerobic environment! Even burying

fish is anaerobic enough to cause botulism. And in one case of Inuit

botulism, it was from a whale that had washed up on the beach (rotting whale is

also a delicacy).

So, I was wondering if I'd die from eating kimchi ... the NT method of making it

in jars is just as anaerobic as Tupperware.

Anyway, the conclusion I've come to after much reading is that Clostridium just

doesn't grow much if the environment has salt, sugar, acid, or any other

bacteria competing. Most NT recipes call for whey as a starter (I use kimchi

juice), plus they have some salt. Most traditional recipes have salt or acid.

And in most cases, the ingredients have their own " starter bacteria " anyway

(cabbage has it's own). Fish and oils seem to be the ingredients that cause the

most problems though. In one writup it mentioned that the issue was that it's

difficult to " mix " the ingredients enough to ensure that the starter

bacteria infuse all parts of the fish. With oils, putting garlic in oil causes

botulism, probably because garlic kills many bacteria (but not clostridium, it

seems) so there isn't enough competition.

So I've been sticking to vegie and fruit ferments mostly, though I put fish in

my kimchi sometimes (the pieces are small

enough that I figure they get " infused " ).

It could be that the traditional seal oil was fermented in a sealskin, which had

plenty of bacteria from previous batches, and the tupperware doesn't? Fish

fermented in a pit gets plenty of bacteria from the surrounding dirt (or leaves,

if the pit is lined).

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> Anyway, the conclusion I've come to after much reading is that Clostridium

just doesn't grow much if the environment has salt, sugar, acid, or any other

bacteria competing. Most NT recipes call for whey as a starter (I use kimchi

juice), plus they have some salt. Most traditional recipes have salt or acid.

And in most cases, the ingredients have their own " starter bacteria " anyway

(cabbage has it's own). Fish and oils seem to be the ingredients that cause the

most problems though. In one writup it mentioned that the issue was that it's

difficult to " mix " the ingredients enough to ensure that the starter

> bacteria infuse all parts of the fish. With oils, putting garlic in oil causes

botulism, probably because garlic kills many bacteria (but not clostridium, it

seems) so there isn't enough competition.

Yeah, I'm not worried about my own ferments using NT (or NT inspired) recipes.

I thought it was funny when that they commented on not knowing the reasons

behind the in the rise of botulism cases, then they mention that the methods

that the Alaskans were using were less and less traditional.

Ghislaine

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/20/04 11:03:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,

heidis@... writes:

> And in one case of Inuit

> botulism, it was from a whale that had washed up on the beach (rotting whale

> is also a delicacy).

>

Steffanson said that he observed people die from eating fresh raw whale, but

never fermented raw whale.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/04 1:50:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,

bberg@... writes:

> It has nothing to do with how " traditional " they are.

Not per se, but presumably people developing traditions over time would

exclude the processes they observed to result in death.

Chris

[Guest guest]

ghislainedel wrote:

> Yeah, I'm not worried about my own ferments using NT (or NT inspired)

> recipes. I thought it was funny when that they commented on not

> knowing the reasons behind the in the rise of botulism cases, then

> they mention that the methods that the Alaskans were using were less

> and less traditional.

It has nothing to do with how " traditional " they are. I suspect that

it's mostly the temperature, although the tightness of the seal (no pun

intended) and the absence of environmental bacteria may play a role,

too.

[Guest guest]

>This week's article featured a question about Alaskans fermenting

in Tupperware. I wanted to share it here because there is a quote

from the Anchorage Daily News about the raise in botulism cases that

i though was interesting.

>

> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040319.html

------> This is snipped from an e-mail by a member of our Ga WPF

group explaining her chemical reaction to food packed in tupperware

for a trip she took. Would sense the preservatives in the plastics

might be the root of thier problems.

Lynn

" When I answered

Tupperware, was told that was the problem, that Tupperware was

impregnated

with BHT & BHA, that this slowly leaches out into the food AND that

is why

Tupperware kept foods fresher than other containers. So, was NOT in

the way

that lid snapped on but in the petrochemical that leached into the

food. Of

course, that explained why I reached worse and worse with each day,

the

longer my foods were in the Tupperware, the more BHT & BHA leached

into it.

Back then, the Feingold Association sent a legal form to companies

with

products that were in question. The companies that got sent these

legal

forms were ones that had generated a number of complaints on a

national

level. The legal form stated that a number of people reacted to their

product and gave the company a chance to disclose any 'hidden

ingredients'

that may cause this. Of course, if the company didn't respond, they

admitted

guilt so their products got on the 'Do not use list'. Tupperware,

however,

did respond, sent the form back filled out stating that BHT & BHA

were

impregnated into the containers.

[Guest guest]

>Steffanson said that he observed people die from eating fresh raw whale, but

>never fermented raw whale.

>

>Chris

Nevertheless, this whale was " fermented " as naturally as could

be. However, it should be kept in mind that these botulism

incidents are VERY RARE even in Alaska ... there are something

like 50 reported cases. So you could live there a long time

eating beached whale and never get sick. And since there

wasn't much communication, you might never hear about the

one tribe that got sick off a whale in your whole life.

Also, if you read the old diaries etc. -- food poisoning

was pretty much taken for granted, people ate stuff

and got sick a LOT. The Inuit probably got sick a lot

less than the Westerners ... and the occasional case

of botulism wasn't as big an issue as say, getting

frozen by falling through ice or getting killed

by an enemy or stuck on an ice floe or whatever.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> Also, if you read the old diaries etc. -- food poisoning

> was pretty much taken for granted, people ate stuff

> and got sick a LOT. The Inuit probably got sick a lot

> less than the Westerners ... and the occasional case

> of botulism wasn't as big an issue as say, getting

> frozen by falling through ice or getting killed

> by an enemy or stuck on an ice floe or whatever.

>

> -- Heidi Jean

Few years back when Malibu CA was having houses mudslide into the ocean

there was an ironic history tidbit. Malibu was named for what was thought to

be the native tribe's name. Something like first settlers asking who are

you?, that was how response was understood. In the language of the native

tribe malibu translates to we are sick so its figured by tribe their

ancestors were probably sick from shellfish poisoning. Irony being its kind

of senseless sick to put your house where its going to slide into the ocean.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

>In the language of the native

>tribe malibu translates to we are sick so its figured by tribe their

>ancestors were probably sick from shellfish poisoning. Irony being its kind

>of senseless sick to put your house where its going to slide into the ocean.

>

>Wanita

" We are sick " pretty much applies to a lot of the Malibuians, IMO! I used to

camp near there. We'd watch the houses get closer and closer to the cliffs,

every year. Not cheap houses either.

-- Heidi Jean