Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 >I know that we need air exchange but does it really have to be big? >I have put some kt cream into a jar with the lid closed tightly and >forgot about it. It made a scoby even with all of the cream and >stuff I added to it. >Lacking any glass containers around my house (and wanting some >vinegar) I have stuffed a couple of little scobys into some old Jack >s bottles (which of course have very small openings in >comparison to the bottle width) to leave for vinegar. They make very >thick scobys which would lead me to believe that they will get the >air they need provided they at least have some access. >I did this not being worried about getting the scoby back out but >just to have some nice glass containers of vinegar. >I do of course watch for mold and have found none. >I just wondered why we should be so inhibited by air space. Small >openings would also hinder mold and vinegar flies. >Ideas? >Sandy I have found that small openings lead to very long brew times. Here's an example: I have both 1-gal jars that are taller than wide and have narrowed opening at the top, as well as 2.25 gal vessels that are wider in relation to the height, with straight sides so that the opening is almost the same diameter as the vessel itself. If I set a brew up in one of each of these two vessels, the 2.25 gal container will get done first. Now, we all agree that the 1-gal jars are fine to brew with, but nevertheless brews in those jars spend a lot more time sitting and looking pretty inactive, compared to the big vessels. It has to do with two things, but I firmly believe it is both these things: 1) vessels that are wide and less tall brew faster, and 2) vessels with wider openings brew faster. I'm not a fiend for quickness on the KT, but I certainly wouldn't choose to brew my regular brews in vessels with small openings. To brew in such a vessel in order to have vinegar in a bottle, fine, you're not needing it to provide your supply of KT. That's what I know about it. THere may be other reasons as well. Oh, here's some more info on this. Vessels that don't have enough airspace in them, most particularly ones with narrowed necks such as the gal-jars, also have been known to sit and sit and SIT! without getting ready. I'm talking twice or more as long. We had a slew of people one time on this list all of whom had brews just sit sit sitting, and every one of them solved the problem by pouring out some of the brew and increasing the airspace. In their cases, they didn't know any airspace was needed, so there was no airspace at all. It's an oddity of this list that the same query will run in spurts where several people will ask the same question all at once. Like earlier today about the cloves and orange spice tea. --V ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 >I know that we need air exchange but does it really have to be big? >I have put some kt cream into a jar with the lid closed tightly and >forgot about it. It made a scoby even with all of the cream and >stuff I added to it. >Lacking any glass containers around my house (and wanting some >vinegar) I have stuffed a couple of little scobys into some old Jack >s bottles (which of course have very small openings in >comparison to the bottle width) to leave for vinegar. They make very >thick scobys which would lead me to believe that they will get the >air they need provided they at least have some access. >I did this not being worried about getting the scoby back out but >just to have some nice glass containers of vinegar. >I do of course watch for mold and have found none. >I just wondered why we should be so inhibited by air space. Small >openings would also hinder mold and vinegar flies. >Ideas? >Sandy I have found that small openings lead to very long brew times. Here's an example: I have both 1-gal jars that are taller than wide and have narrowed opening at the top, as well as 2.25 gal vessels that are wider in relation to the height, with straight sides so that the opening is almost the same diameter as the vessel itself. If I set a brew up in one of each of these two vessels, the 2.25 gal container will get done first. Now, we all agree that the 1-gal jars are fine to brew with, but nevertheless brews in those jars spend a lot more time sitting and looking pretty inactive, compared to the big vessels. It has to do with two things, but I firmly believe it is both these things: 1) vessels that are wide and less tall brew faster, and 2) vessels with wider openings brew faster. I'm not a fiend for quickness on the KT, but I certainly wouldn't choose to brew my regular brews in vessels with small openings. To brew in such a vessel in order to have vinegar in a bottle, fine, you're not needing it to provide your supply of KT. That's what I know about it. THere may be other reasons as well. Oh, here's some more info on this. Vessels that don't have enough airspace in them, most particularly ones with narrowed necks such as the gal-jars, also have been known to sit and sit and SIT! without getting ready. I'm talking twice or more as long. We had a slew of people one time on this list all of whom had brews just sit sit sitting, and every one of them solved the problem by pouring out some of the brew and increasing the airspace. In their cases, they didn't know any airspace was needed, so there was no airspace at all. It's an oddity of this list that the same query will run in spurts where several people will ask the same question all at once. Like earlier today about the cloves and orange spice tea. --V ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 >I know that we need air exchange but does it really have to be big? >I have put some kt cream into a jar with the lid closed tightly and >forgot about it. It made a scoby even with all of the cream and >stuff I added to it. >Lacking any glass containers around my house (and wanting some >vinegar) I have stuffed a couple of little scobys into some old Jack >s bottles (which of course have very small openings in >comparison to the bottle width) to leave for vinegar. They make very >thick scobys which would lead me to believe that they will get the >air they need provided they at least have some access. >I did this not being worried about getting the scoby back out but >just to have some nice glass containers of vinegar. >I do of course watch for mold and have found none. >I just wondered why we should be so inhibited by air space. Small >openings would also hinder mold and vinegar flies. >Ideas? >Sandy I have found that small openings lead to very long brew times. Here's an example: I have both 1-gal jars that are taller than wide and have narrowed opening at the top, as well as 2.25 gal vessels that are wider in relation to the height, with straight sides so that the opening is almost the same diameter as the vessel itself. If I set a brew up in one of each of these two vessels, the 2.25 gal container will get done first. Now, we all agree that the 1-gal jars are fine to brew with, but nevertheless brews in those jars spend a lot more time sitting and looking pretty inactive, compared to the big vessels. It has to do with two things, but I firmly believe it is both these things: 1) vessels that are wide and less tall brew faster, and 2) vessels with wider openings brew faster. I'm not a fiend for quickness on the KT, but I certainly wouldn't choose to brew my regular brews in vessels with small openings. To brew in such a vessel in order to have vinegar in a bottle, fine, you're not needing it to provide your supply of KT. That's what I know about it. THere may be other reasons as well. Oh, here's some more info on this. Vessels that don't have enough airspace in them, most particularly ones with narrowed necks such as the gal-jars, also have been known to sit and sit and SIT! without getting ready. I'm talking twice or more as long. We had a slew of people one time on this list all of whom had brews just sit sit sitting, and every one of them solved the problem by pouring out some of the brew and increasing the airspace. In their cases, they didn't know any airspace was needed, so there was no airspace at all. It's an oddity of this list that the same query will run in spurts where several people will ask the same question all at once. Like earlier today about the cloves and orange spice tea. --V ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Here is a link to a site that sells one just like I have used, I got mine at Wal-Mart, you can get them in 2 1/4 gallon also. I am showing this link so you can see that they are PERFECT for Kombucha. It has a nice lip for the rubberband to hold the top secure too. http://www.instawares.com/heritage-hill-glass-jar.69349tah.0.7.htm ~Connie~ " I only wish there was a place to buy Kombucha containers and > which you don't need to take out a second mortage to pay for them <LOL>. " > > Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I started brewing in a three quart > glass jar from WalMart -- it comes with a glass cover, but I use a tight > weave dishtowel and a rubber band because there is a nice groove at the top > of the jar. When I needed something larger, I went to the 12 quart glass jar > in the same line and used it the same way. Then Costco was selling tulips > growing in a glass jar in water, and when we finished with the tulips, I > kept the jar: it is about six quarts and can be used the same way. > > I hope these jars are suitable for brewing: they certainly have been serving > us well. > > Joyce > Dallas TX > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Here is a link to a site that sells one just like I have used, I got mine at Wal-Mart, you can get them in 2 1/4 gallon also. I am showing this link so you can see that they are PERFECT for Kombucha. It has a nice lip for the rubberband to hold the top secure too. http://www.instawares.com/heritage-hill-glass-jar.69349tah.0.7.htm ~Connie~ " I only wish there was a place to buy Kombucha containers and > which you don't need to take out a second mortage to pay for them <LOL>. " > > Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I started brewing in a three quart > glass jar from WalMart -- it comes with a glass cover, but I use a tight > weave dishtowel and a rubber band because there is a nice groove at the top > of the jar. When I needed something larger, I went to the 12 quart glass jar > in the same line and used it the same way. Then Costco was selling tulips > growing in a glass jar in water, and when we finished with the tulips, I > kept the jar: it is about six quarts and can be used the same way. > > I hope these jars are suitable for brewing: they certainly have been serving > us well. > > Joyce > Dallas TX > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Ikea has the same jar for ,I $6.00 or $7.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Ikea has the same jar for ,I $6.00 or $7.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Ikea has the same jar for ,I $6.00 or $7.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 I shall have to do some 'shopping' whilst in the States for these types of things <LOL>. I shall be able to pack things like that in my suitcase. -- Re: Kombucha Queries >Pity they are so hard to come by. I want something that can hold at least a >gallon without letting in too much light. The light really does not seem to be an issue. Plus, you can use a large cloth as your cover cloth that also covers the vessel. Mine are lightweight white floursacking type cloths that are tightly woven. In the summer my vessels get a few minutes of direct rays and the brews seem to love just those few minutes. For sure, I have noticed no trouble at all with the light in our kitchen, and we have big greenhouse windows. I use large 2.25 gallon glass containers (they are made by Anchor Hocking as cookie jars). I'm sorry that these don't seem to be available in other countries than the USA. --V ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 I remain a beginner at KT fermentation. My first batch is working in a gallon brown bottle. Both wooden barrels, and Italian wooden spigots can be purchased from Northernbrewer.com....2-5-10 and 15 gallon barrels are available from 120 to 200 US dollars. If you want French oak, expect to pay much more as it is air dried and not kiln dried. I was thinking, if the barrel is on it's side with the bung hole facing upward and filled to 75% capacity, we could take advantage of the increased surface area for speedy fermentation. The Belgian brewerys which ferment with Lactobacillus pump the hot wort (unfermented sweet liquid) into large shallow tubs in the attic; i.e. head-space topic from another post. > > > >So does anyone brew KT in wood? > > Not yet, but I really really want to! I just need to find a barrel that > can be used the way we need it. Wine barrels have the stopper in the > middle of the barrel. For kombucha we would need a barrel sitting up > vertically, with one open end, with the hole nearer the bottom. I know a > source for small oak barrels in several sizes, including 5 gal and under, > 10 gal, 15, etc. But the hole is placed in the center and I talked to the > retailer and they are not able to specify a different placement of the > hole. They could, however, cut off the top for me so I could have plenty > of air exchange. It's just occurred to me I could simply put a plug in the > original hole and have a new hole cut in the correct place for the wooden > spigot. > > , would you have any ideas about getting a good setup for a wooden > barrel for kombucha fermentation? > > --V > > > > ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ > --A.J. Muste > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Wow! That looks perfect! I shall see if I can buy one of them whilst in the States for my boyfriend's brew! -- Re: Kombucha Queries Here is a link to a site that sells one just like I have used, I got mine at Wal-Mart, you can get them in 2 1/4 gallon also. I am showing this link so you can see that they are PERFECT for Kombucha. It has a nice lip for the rubberband to hold the top secure too. http://www.instawares.com/heritage-hill-glass-jar.69349tah.0.7.htm ~Connie~ " I only wish there was a place to buy Kombucha containers and > which you don't need to take out a second mortage to pay for them <LOL>. " > > Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I started brewing in a three quart > glass jar from WalMart -- it comes with a glass cover, but I use a tight > weave dishtowel and a rubber band because there is a nice groove at the top > of the jar. When I needed something larger, I went to the 12 quart glass jar > in the same line and used it the same way. Then Costco was selling tulips > growing in a glass jar in water, and when we finished with the tulips, I > kept the jar: it is about six quarts and can be used the same way. > > I hope these jars are suitable for brewing: they certainly have been serving > us well. > > Joyce > Dallas TX > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Hi all, It seems to me that the most important factor is not the opening in the container, but the surface area of the liquid inside the container. That's where the alcohol produced by the yeasts is oxidized to acetic acid by the bacteria. As the oxygen is consumed at the surface, it will be exhausted in the head space and will diffuse from the outside air. Unless there is a significant restriction of bulk flow between the outside air and the headspace, there will be plenty of oxygen for the bacteria. The difference between, say, a pickle jar and a liquor bottle isn't going to effect the gas exchange very much. A more significant factor is the enrichment of the headspace with carbon dioxide, which is heavier than air. Even so there should be enough oxygen to do the job... So as long as you're not filling the liquor bottle up into the neck, it shouldn't be that different from a pickle jar of the same size. Now if you *did* want to get the scobies back out that's a different story. Jim > > , > I know that we need air exchange but does it really have to be big? > I have put some kt cream into a jar with the lid closed tightly and > forgot about it. It made a scoby even with all of the cream and > stuff I added to it. > Lacking any glass containers around my house (and wanting some > vinegar) I have stuffed a couple of little scobys into some old Jack > s bottles (which of course have very small openings in > comparison to the bottle width) to leave for vinegar. They make very > thick scobys which would lead me to believe that they will get the > air they need provided they at least have some access. > I did this not being worried about getting the scoby back out but > just to have some nice glass containers of vinegar. > I do of course watch for mold and have found none. > I just wondered why we should be so inhibited by air space. Small > openings would also hinder mold and vinegar flies. > Ideas? > Sandy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 >I shall have to do some 'shopping' whilst in the States for these types of >things <LOL>. I shall be able to pack things like that in my suitcase. The 2.25 gal one is pretty big. You might look into packing whatever you buy and sending it the cheapest method home. --V ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Hi , Thank you for the information on sources. >I remain a beginner at KT fermentation. My first batch is working in >a gallon brown bottle. > Both wooden barrels, and Italian wooden spigots can be >purchased from Northernbrewer.com....2-5-10 and 15 gallon barrels >are available from 120 to 200 US dollars. If you want French oak, >expect to pay much more as it is air dried and not kiln dried. I was >thinking, if the barrel is on it's side with the bung hole facing >upward and filled to 75% capacity, we could take advantage of the >increased surface area for speedy fermentation. I'm afraid this would not be sufficient air access. I've discovered that even if the barrel were only partly filled, if the air hole was just the small bunghole, it would probably not be enough. My idea was to have one end of the barrel sawed off as the open top, then sit the barrel on the other end. So the top would be open and still covered with the cloth. It would be more akin to a pickle barrel in this usage, except I would really love to have a spigot down 2-3 inches from the bottom. Thanks again. Your perspective is helpful. --V >The Belgian brewerys >which ferment with Lactobacillus pump the hot wort (unfermented >sweet liquid) into large shallow tubs in the attic; i.e. head-space >topic from another post. > ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Well, I can tell you from experience, and I am very observant, that it may not seem like it should make a difference but in fact it does. I promise I'm not theorizing, I'm speaking from long comparison brewing. --V >It seems to me that the most important factor is not the opening in >the container, but the surface area of the liquid inside the >container. That's where the alcohol produced by the yeasts is oxidized >to acetic acid by the bacteria. As the oxygen is consumed at the >surface, it will be exhausted in the head space and will diffuse from >the outside air. Unless there is a significant restriction of bulk >flow between the outside air and the headspace, there will be plenty >of oxygen for the bacteria. The difference between, say, a pickle jar >and a liquor bottle isn't going to effect the gas exchange very much. >A more significant factor is the enrichment of the headspace with >carbon dioxide, which is heavier than air. Even so there should be >enough oxygen to do the job... > >So as long as you're not filling the liquor bottle up into the neck, >it shouldn't be that different from a pickle jar of the same size. Now >if you *did* want to get the scobies back out that's a different story. > >Jim ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 Mmmm.... that is certainly something to think about. -- Re: Kombucha Queries >I shall have to do some 'shopping' whilst in the States for these types of >things <LOL>. I shall be able to pack things like that in my suitcase. The 2.25 gal one is pretty big. You might look into packing whatever you buy and sending it the cheapest method home. --V ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Observations noted! Is it a difference mainly in fermentation time? Jim -- theorizing beginner > > Well, I can tell you from experience, and I am very observant, that it may > not seem like it should make a difference but in fact it does. I promise > I'm not theorizing, I'm speaking from long comparison brewing. --V > > >It seems to me that the most important factor is not the opening in > >the container, but the surface area of the liquid inside the > >container. That's where the alcohol produced by the yeasts is oxidized > >to acetic acid by the bacteria. As the oxygen is consumed at the > >surface, it will be exhausted in the head space and will diffuse from > >the outside air. Unless there is a significant restriction of bulk > >flow between the outside air and the headspace, there will be plenty > >of oxygen for the bacteria. The difference between, say, a pickle jar > >and a liquor bottle isn't going to effect the gas exchange very much. > >A more significant factor is the enrichment of the headspace with > >carbon dioxide, which is heavier than air. Even so there should be > >enough oxygen to do the job... > > > >So as long as you're not filling the liquor bottle up into the neck, > >it shouldn't be that different from a pickle jar of the same size. Now > >if you *did* want to get the scobies back out that's a different story. > > > >Jim > > > ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ > --A.J. Muste > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 > I'm not a fiend for quickness on the KT, but I certainly wouldn't choose to > brew my regular brews in vessels with small openings. To brew in such a > vessel in order to have vinegar in a bottle, fine, you're not needing it > to provide your supply of KT. Ok, I get you. I think that what I was trying to point out was that it would not harm the scoby. (at least it certainly has not hurt mine) Of course I use my big jugs (with big mouths) and my contious brew urn for brewing but I could not think of anything to use for some good kt vinegar until I remembered a couple of old bottles we had from past Christmas cheers. I don't really mind that it is just sitting because it was very vinegary when I put it in there and is great in salad dressing. > It's an oddity of this list that the same query will run in spurts where > several people will ask the same question all at once. Like earlier today > about the cloves and orange spice tea. > Now I am thinking of a cup of hot spiced tea! mmmMMmm Cheers, Sandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 >Observations noted! Is it a difference mainly in fermentation time? > >Jim -- theorizing beginner heheh. Mostly, I think. --V ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 >Ok, I get you. I think that what I was trying to point out was that >it would not harm the scoby. (at least it certainly has not hurt >mine) Of course I use my big jugs (with big mouths) and my contious >brew urn for brewing but I could not think of anything to use for >some good kt vinegar until I remembered a couple of old bottles we >had from past Christmas cheers. >I don't really mind that it is just sitting because it was very >vinegary when I put it in there and is great in salad dressing. Yes, definitely a situation where the time factor doesn't matter. --V ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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