Re: Looking at faces & feet

[Guest guest]

> But I am curious about the foot thing. I haven't read all of the book yet

> (I've seen all the pictures :-), but it seems he connects flat and club

feet

> with diet. I thought flat footedness was genetic. Is there any follow up

> to Dr. Price's up work being done? I'd appreciate any resources into the

> foot thing.

>

> Thanks.

> Deanna

Don't remember feet in NAPD. Didn't get to finish before returning to

library and haven't got to finishing online. Have flat feet, school

physicals would note it. When I felt different because of it remember Dad

saying " Of course you've got flat feet, Indians have flat feet " Wheather

its natural to my Native American genes, result of change from ancestral

diet or the opposite, nice arches were observed by WAP before diet change,

don't know. Have read that tribal peoples walk differently than modern, one

is toe to heel and the other heel to toe. I walk toe to heel. When hunting

walking toe to heel is less noise on dried leaves especially. A mystery?

Wanita

[Guest guest]

At 09:13 AM 3/22/2004, you wrote:

>But I am curious about the foot thing. I haven't read all of the book yet

>(I've seen all the pictures :-), but it seems he connects flat and club feet

>with diet. I thought flat footedness was genetic. Is there any follow up

>to Dr. Price's up work being done? I'd appreciate any resources into the

>foot thing.

deanna -

i have no data on this particular issue, but there's one comment that i can

make: i'm learning to question ALL thoughts regarding " genetic " and

" hereditary " and " runs in families " ...

first, when i hear myself say that, i stop and question what i mean. am i

saying " genetic " as shorthand? i think there are far fewer things that are

actually " genetic " and far more that " run in families " or are " hereditary " .

and to me, those two latter things may actually have more to do with family

habit (ie, grains at every meal or a high-sugar diet) than with family

genetic make-up. which has some real ramifications for those conditions

when seen in light of a good healthy diet, ya know?

anyway. for whatever that's worth! and i doubt, i guess, that bread and

cake could cause flat feet

-katja

[Guest guest]

>>But I am curious about the foot thing. I haven't read all of the book yet

>>(I've seen all the pictures :-), but it seems he connects flat and club feet

>>with diet. I thought flat footedness was genetic. Is there any follow up

>>to Dr. Price's up work being done? I'd appreciate any resources into the

>>foot thing.

Flat feet are associated with weak connective tissues. Weak

connective tissues CAN be genetic, or they can be genetic with

an environmental component.

In general, if something that is purely " genetic " also causes some

degree of problem, then according to genetic theory, that gene

should be REALLY RARE. For instance T1 diabetes is likely genetic,

but it is really fatal if you don't have modern medicine, so there MUST

be an environmental component (and now they are finding out it

has to do with certain foods introduced at a certain point in childhood).

In my case I do have connective tissue problems, as does my Mom

and most of her family. They are MUCH better now, since avoiding

gluten. Which makes perfect sense, since gluten triggers to body

to produce an antibody that attacks connective tissue! There might

be other factors too. But I highly doubt that connective tissue

problems are usually purely genetic, because connective tissue

problems also cause poor eyesight, crooked teeth, crowded

sinuses, hernias, and burst arteries, all of which can cause a person

to die earlier. Also those are the things Price noted as associated

with a " modern diet " ... (wheat) flour and sugar.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>>But I am curious about the foot thing. I haven't read all of the book yet

>>(I've seen all the pictures :-), but it seems he connects flat and club feet

>>with diet. I thought flat footedness was genetic. Is there any follow up

>>to Dr. Price's up work being done? I'd appreciate any resources into the

>>foot thing.

Incidentally, today I was looking up references to hydraluronic acid

and came up with some really interesting stuff. Turns out it is really

central to connective tissue issues ... there are supplements that

are supposed to increase your levels of it and do great things for

your joints. AND glucosamine is half a hydraluronic acid molecule,

so one reason it may work is that it helps the body produce it.

AND magnesium and zinc are required to make it in the body.

However, what is also interesting is that a likely source for

eating it is .... broth! Specifically long-boiled broth with cartilage!

Ala NT!

Anyway, there is a whole lot of info on it here:

http://www.ctds.info/hyaluronic_acid.html

http://www.ctds.info/hyaluronic_acid_2.html

" The second source of hyaluronic acid I can think of would be to eat animal

parts known to contain a lot of hyaluonic acid. I make broth for soup from

boiled animal parts that contain a lot of skin, tendons and joints. This is the

one food that helped my fibromyalgia more than anything else. I've also noticed

that if I eat too much of this broth my blood pressure rises, which is

interesting because people like me with connective tissue disorders usually have

unusually low blood pressure. It also seems to improve my breathing. My kids

don't like to eat too much soup, so I make a nutritious broth from bones and

vegetables for them and use it instead of water when I make rice or quinoa,

foods they will eat more readily. "

http://www.muhealth.org/%7Earthritis/articles/dec01/chicken.html

Chicken Soup for the Knees

By Rummell

(Columbia, Missouri; Dec. 19, 2001) - Chicken soup may be touted as one way to

cure the common cold, but for osteoarthritis of the knees, " chicken shots " are

gaining respect as one way to reduce the pain.

" Chicken shots " is a slang term for viscosupplementation. This process involves

injecting fluid taken from a chicken’s comb into a knee affected by

osteoarthritis.

Osteoarthritis is the degenerative form of arthritis. It is the most common form

of arthritis, affecting about 21 million Americans or more than one out 10

people.

The process is a good one, said Kenter, M.D., assistant professor of

orthopaedic surgery at the

<http://www.muhealth.org/%7Earthritis/articles/dec01/javascript:popup('http://ww\

w.muhealth.org/')>University of Missouri Health Care

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

OK, and lest you thought the Glutenator wasn't going to link this to gluten,

I'd point out that gluten intolerant folks typically have zinc deficiency.

AND it turns out that zinc deficiency is very much associated with

hyaluric acid problems (and other connective tissue problems!).

What is interesting though, re Price and these things affecting

other generations, is that when one generation gets

zinc deficiency, it can carry over for several generations (see below).

This link has lots of interesting stuff that is associated with zinc

deficiency ... pregnant women, eat your zinc!

-- Heidi Jean

http://www.ctds.info/zinc1.html

Overview

Many of the features of common chronic disorders, especially connective tissue

disorders, are identical to the symptoms of zinc deficiencies. Is this a

coincidence, or could zinc deficiencies be an often overlooked factor in many

disorders currently attributed to genes or other causes?

When pregnant mice were fed a diet moderately deficient in zinc, their offspring

exhibited a malfunctioning immune system for the first six months of life. More

alarming, the second and third generations also showed signs of poor immunity -

even though they were fed a zinc-plentiful diet.

Carper, writing in Carper's Total Nutrition Guide, in reference to

zinc studies done at U.C.

If zinc deficiencies can carry over from generations in mice, as noted above,

could the same be true for humans? Perhaps some of the conditions in humans we

currently attribute to genetic defects were actually caused by deficiencies of

zinc or other nutrients occurring in past generations.

<http://www.ctds.info/#top>Return to top

[Guest guest]

Muchos gracias Helga, Wanita and Katja! My son has flat feet (so does his

Dad). I have no ligaments holding my left ankle. Oh you should see what I

can do with it and the pinky toe on that foot! I suppose there's no help

for me, but I think my boy has a chance to improve his arches. Yoga has

been helpful. It is not an issue of pain or anything . . . and

interestingly, he has some native American blood in him.

Deanna

Subject: Re: Looking at faces & feet

OK, and lest you thought the Glutenator wasn't going to link this to gluten,

I'd point out that gluten intolerant folks typically have zinc deficiency.

AND it turns out that zinc deficiency is very much associated with

hyaluric acid problems (and other connective tissue problems!).

What is interesting though, re Price and these things affecting

other generations, is that when one generation gets

zinc deficiency, it can carry over for several generations (see below).

This link has lots of interesting stuff that is associated with zinc

deficiency ... pregnant women, eat your zinc!

-- Heidi Jean

http://www.ctds.info/zinc1.html

Overview

Many of the features of common chronic disorders, especially connective

tissue disorders, are identical to the symptoms of zinc deficiencies. Is

this a coincidence, or could zinc deficiencies be an often overlooked factor

in many disorders currently attributed to genes or other causes?

When pregnant mice were fed a diet moderately deficient in zinc, their

offspring exhibited a malfunctioning immune system for the first six months

of life. More alarming, the second and third generations also showed signs

of poor immunity - even though they were fed a zinc-plentiful diet.

Carper, writing in Carper's Total Nutrition Guide, in reference to

zinc studies done at U.C.

If zinc deficiencies can carry over from generations in mice, as noted

above, could the same be true for humans? Perhaps some of the conditions in

humans we currently attribute to genetic defects were actually caused by

deficiencies of zinc or other nutrients occurring in past generations.

<http://www.ctds.info/#top>Return to top

[Guest guest]

WAPF and connective tissue disorders! This doesn't cut and paste well, you

should look

at the original. I suspected this myself, but here is an article from someone

who knows a lot about connective tissue disorders. The article just

above this one, in the link, talks about genes vs. environment (diet).

Also this mentions flat feet specifically as being related to modern diet

and connective tissue disorder.

http://www.ctds.info/connective_disorders1.html

Nutrition and Physical Degeneration and Connective Tissue Disorders

The book

<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879838167/inheritedconn-20>Nutrition

and Physical Degeneration provides some additional clues that nutrition may be a

root factor in connective tissue disorders. The author of this book, a dentist

named Weston Price, traveled around the world in the early part of the 1900's.

He compared the health problems and physical features of people on traditional

native diets to people with similar genetic make-ups who had converted to

Western diets that included processed foods and refined sugars. His book has

detailed comparisons of each diet, pictures of adults and children born and

raised on the native diets and pictures of children born and raised after the

parents adopted a Western style diet.

On the native diets there were few defects, but for children born and raised

under Western style cuisine there is a dramatic incidence of physical defects

and health problems. It is interesting to note that many of the defects and

health problems of the Western diets are identical to the symptoms of inherited

connective tissue disorders. The chart below is a summary I made of the type of

features he found on the native diets compared to the features on the Western

diets.

Summary of Physical Features

Related to Conective Tissue Disorders Noted in

Nutrition and Physical Degeneration

Before and After the Start of Westernized Diets

Native Diets

Western Diets

Well arched, normally shaped feet

Flat feet

Club feet

Well developed faces

Underdevelopment of the mid face

Underdeveloped noses

Long narrow faces

Few dental cavities

High rate of cavities

Normal height

Lengthening and narrowing of body

(taller and thinner)

Well formed hips

Narrow, deformed hips

Straight teeth

Crowded teeth

Well formed dental palates

Malformed dental palates - high arches

Cleft palates

Well developed jaws

Micrognathia - underdeveloped jaws

Few birth defects and " hereditary " disorders

Wide variety of degenerative diseases and birth defects

This next table takes the symptoms Dr. Price associated with Western diets and

nutritional deficits and compares them to the symptoms geneticists today

attribute to hereditary connective tissue disorders. Notice that there are a lot

of similarities. Entries in the final column note if the features Dr. Price

thought were related to poor nutrition have indeed been found in modern studies

to be caused to nutritional deficiencies. In many cases, time has proven Dr.

Price correct.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> This link has lots of interesting stuff that is associated with zinc

> deficiency >

> -- Heidi Jean

>

> http://www.ctds.info/zinc1.html

Does " Abnormal levels of zinc have been found in the eyes of people with

cataracts, glaucoma, macular degeneration, myopia and retinal detachment "

mean high, low, no zinc or deficiency indicator if familial? DH has more

indicators for zinc deficiency than me. Have been taking twice as much zinc

last few days to keep cold at bay. Now to twist his arm into doing it.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Lengthening and narrowing of body

(taller and thinner)

Narrow, deformed hips

----------------------------------

You know, when I read in NAPD about the reproductive problems these tall,

skinny girls have, I could not but help to wonder why in tarnation this very

defect is the ideal form for modern *model women* - those who supposedly

represent the ideal in our society. Wow! Our popular culture idolizes

deformed women.

Full hips are well worth celebrating girls! They make life possible.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Quoting Deanna <nativenutrition@...>:

> Lengthening and narrowing of body

> (taller and thinner)

>

> Narrow, deformed hips

> ----------------------------------

>

> You know, when I read in NAPD about the reproductive problems these tall,

> skinny girls have, I could not but help to wonder why in tarnation this

> very

> defect is the ideal form for modern *model women* - those who supposedly

> represent the ideal in our society.

Because the fashion industry consists largely of men who like boys?

Honestly, I don't know where the idea that most people consider this to be

ideal comes from--certainly not from heterosexual men. Personally, I think

that it's just a strawman erected by some enterprising feminists desperate

for something to get worked up over.

> Full hips are well worth celebrating girls! They make life possible.

Whenever I hear this, it makes me cringe. It's not that it's not true--it's

just that it's an observation that's usually trotted out to justify

borderline obesity. So I'll express agreement, with the caveat that there's

a difference between deliciously curvy and just plain fat.

--

Berg

bberg@...

[Guest guest]

i was on a dating thingo for a while and it was suprising how many girls who

didnt have pictures up

and had themselves listed as bubbly and cuddly/curvy

and yes there is a diff between deliciously curvy ( kate winslet/drew barrymore

at what is a good weight for them )

and fat

> Full hips are well worth celebrating girls! They make life possible.

Whenever I hear this, it makes me cringe. It's not that it's not true--it's

just that it's an observation that's usually trotted out to justify

borderline obesity. So I'll express agreement, with the caveat that there's

a difference between deliciously curvy and just plain fat.

--

Berg

bberg@...

[Guest guest]

>You know, when I read in NAPD about the reproductive problems these tall,

>skinny girls have, I could not but help to wonder why in tarnation this very

>defect is the ideal form for modern *model women* - those who supposedly

>represent the ideal in our society. Wow! Our popular culture idolizes

>deformed women.

Also narrow noses are the " ideal " . When you look at Nefertiti, she is

EXACTLY what Price was warning against... narrow nasal passages,

long skinny neck, Marfan-like traits. Those Egyptions weren't healthy.

My Glutenator theory is ... the upper classes for the last 1,000 years

got the most wheat. In Ireland this is definitely true ... the farmers

were not allowed to eat the grain they grew, just the potatoes.

Upper classes got wheat. Wheat (and other grains) interferes

massively with the metabolism, and so the upper classes got

the skinny faces, ala Prince , which are now considered

" aristocratic " . Wide faces and wide noses are considered " savage "

or " low class " . People tend to emulate the upper class.

-- the Glutenator

[Guest guest]

byron wrote:

> i was on a dating thingo for a while and it was suprising how many

> girls who didnt have pictures up

> and had themselves listed as bubbly and cuddly/curvy

Maybe it's a regional thing, but here in the US, " bubbly " is a

personality type--cheerful, energetic, and talkative. Is it used to

describe physical characteristics in Australia?

[Guest guest]

> Full hips are well worth celebrating girls! They make life possible.

Whenever I hear this, it makes me cringe. It's not that it's not true--it's

just that it's an observation that's usually trotted out to justify

borderline obesity. So I'll express agreement, with the caveat that there's

a difference between deliciously curvy and just plain fat.

--

Berg

------------------------------------

Hello ,

I was referring to bone structure, not flab. I myself am certainly not

obese, but having curves has not often been an ideal for women, so it was a

statement of accepting good bone structure, not secretary spread (which guys

now get too from sitting too long). Same with muscles - I am thankful for

having strong, muscular legs too, regardless of the fashion du jour.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

yes, but i speak as a small, thin woman and though it doesn't appear so my hips

are still rather wide. i had no problems at all getting pregnant or giving

birth to my daughter so i don't know that it is as clear-cut as just being thin

or not.

Berg <bberg@...> wrote:Quoting Deanna

<nativenutrition@...>:

> Lengthening and narrowing of body

> (taller and thinner)

>

> Narrow, deformed hips

> ----------------------------------

>

> You know, when I read in NAPD about the reproductive problems these tall,

> skinny girls have, I could not but help to wonder why in tarnation this

> very

> defect is the ideal form for modern *model women* - those who supposedly

> represent the ideal in our society.

Because the fashion industry consists largely of men who like boys?

Honestly, I don't know where the idea that most people consider this to be

ideal comes from--certainly not from heterosexual men. Personally, I think

that it's just a strawman erected by some enterprising feminists desperate

for something to get worked up over.

> Full hips are well worth celebrating girls! They make life possible.

Whenever I hear this, it makes me cringe. It's not that it's not true--it's

just that it's an observation that's usually trotted out to justify

borderline obesity. So I'll express agreement, with the caveat that there's

a difference between deliciously curvy and just plain fat.

--

Berg

bberg@...

[Guest guest]

Many moons ago, I used to have a sensitive sense of smell. A few

years later, I joined some housemates in doing Weight Watchers. One

of the main differences in our diet was eating less beef. Somewhere

along the way, my sense of smell became less acute. OK, so what?

Years later, at the eye doctor, he made the point that that a lack of

zinc can cause the sense of smell to become less acute. He had some

samples of a supplement containing, among other things, lutein and

zinc. From that time, I attributed the lack of zinc to eating less

beef.

Even though I now eat a lot more beef than I did for years, my sense

of smell only occasionally seems as acute as it formerly did. I'm

reluctant to take zinc supplements, but I'm wondering if I'm still

deficient in it. I don't get those white spots on my nails very

often.

But seeing this discussion, especially the point where a zinc

deficiency can be long-lasting and even be passed to offspring, makes

me wonder whether I ought to think about supplementing zinc.

>

>

> OK, and lest you thought the Glutenator wasn't going to link this

to gluten,

> I'd point out that gluten intolerant folks typically have zinc

deficiency.

> AND it turns out that zinc deficiency is very much associated with

> hyaluric acid problems (and other connective tissue problems!).

>

> What is interesting though, re Price and these things affecting

> other generations, is that when one generation gets

> zinc deficiency, it can carry over for several generations (see

below).

> This link has lots of interesting stuff that is associated with zinc

> deficiency ... pregnant women, eat your zinc!

>

> -- Heidi Jean

>

> http://www.ctds.info/zinc1.html

>

>

> Overview

>

> Many of the features of common chronic disorders, especially

connective tissue disorders, are identical to the symptoms of zinc

deficiencies. Is this a coincidence, or could zinc deficiencies be an

often overlooked factor in many disorders currently attributed to

genes or other causes?

>

> When pregnant mice were fed a diet moderately deficient in zinc,

their offspring exhibited a malfunctioning immune system for the

first six months of life. More alarming, the second and third

generations also showed signs of poor immunity - even though they

were fed a zinc-plentiful diet.

>

> Carper, writing in Carper's Total Nutrition Guide, in

reference to zinc studies done at U.C.

>

> If zinc deficiencies can carry over from generations in mice, as

noted above, could the same be true for humans? Perhaps some of the

conditions in humans we currently attribute to genetic defects were

actually caused by deficiencies of zinc or other nutrients occurring

in past generations.

>

> <http://www.ctds.info/#top>Return to top

[Guest guest]

--- In , Berg <bberg@c...>

wrote:

> > Full hips are well worth celebrating girls! They make life

possible.

>

> Whenever I hear this, it makes me cringe. It's not that it's not

true--it's

> just that it's an observation that's usually trotted out to justify

> borderline obesity. So I'll express agreement, with the caveat that

there's

> a difference between deliciously curvy and just plain fat.

>

> --

> Berg

> bberg@c...

Uh......I'm sure they're not talking about the padding on the

hips, but the bone structure underneath.

My older sister had the better figure. She was the first born. I

was born 14 months after she was. My younger sister was born 3 years

after I was, and she had a better figure than I. My brother was born

4 years after my younger sister, but we don't care that he has no

hips!

I've always said that I had no waist. I was afraid that my children

would inherit my thick waist and small hip structure. But no! My dd

has a lovely figure--much cuter than mine ever was! <whew!>

I did have a C section, but hopefully dd will not have to.

[Guest guest]

--- In , heather coy <hjillcoy@y...>

wrote:

> yes, but i speak as a small, thin woman and though it doesn't

appear so my hips are still rather wide. i had no problems at all

getting pregnant or giving birth to my daughter so i don't know that

it is as clear-cut as just being thin or not.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree. I'm thin also and my hips are wide. I got pregnant with

all 4 of my kids (including twins) very easily and had no problems

giving birth.

Question: What height is considered tall for a woman? I'm 5' 8 " and

while I know that's not short I don't consider it to be very tall.

People always think I'm taller because I'm thin and are surprised

that I'm " only " 5 feet 8 and that I don't need to wear clothes

specially made for " tall " women. Just curious.

[Guest guest]

well, i'm a tinge over 6 foot. i have met some women taller than me, but

it's rare. mostly i wear guys' clothes or make stuff for myself, but it's

pretty impossible to find women's clothes that fit.

-katja

>Question: What height is considered tall for a woman? I'm 5' 8 " and

>while I know that's not short I don't consider it to be very tall.

>People always think I'm taller because I'm thin and are surprised

>that I'm " only " 5 feet 8 and that I don't need to wear clothes

>specially made for " tall " women. Just curious.

>

>