Guest guest Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 I spoke to Andy recently (within the last two months) about this and asked if anyone had figured out which kids did well with HBOT and which would not do well. He told me that HBOT is contraindicated for any mercury toxic persons. Cutler's view on HBOT Hi Mandi, Anita, Do you know what Andy Cutler's view is on HBOT. What doeshe think about doing HBOT with kids who have mercury hanging around in thebrain.Thanks Gillian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 I spoke to Andy recently (within the last two months) about this and asked if anyone had figured out which kids did well with HBOT and which would not do well. He told me that HBOT is contraindicated for any mercury toxic persons. Cutler's view on HBOT Hi Mandi, Anita, Do you know what Andy Cutler's view is on HBOT. What doeshe think about doing HBOT with kids who have mercury hanging around in thebrain.Thanks Gillian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Did he quote any research? -- or is this his personal opinion based on many years of experience etc Sally wrote: > > I spoke to Andy recently (within the last two months) about this and > asked if anyone had figured out which kids did well with HBOT and > which would not do well. He told me that HBOT is contraindicated for > any mercury toxic persons. > > > > > > * Cutler's view on HBOT > > Hi Mandi, Anita, Do you know what Andy Cutler's view is on HBOT. > What does > he think about doing HBOT with kids who have mercury hanging > around in the > brain. > > Thanks Gillian. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1820 - Release Date: 29/11/2008 18:52 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Going only from what he's said on AM, not from any special knowledge, when I was looking into this Cutler seemed to think that the oxidative stress caused by mercury (which is substantial) would be the main reason why you wouldn't want to hbot a mercury toxic individual. I may certainly have missed something that he said though. In looking at the research, it goes both ways for increased oxidative stress from hbot. That is, hbot in some studies increases it, in some it reduced it, in some it remained the same. Some of the studies are on animals, some on people, some don't say if they used antioxidants, etc. It was hard for me to draw any definite conclusion, but people with more knowledge might have an easier time of that. For my own kid, we had done quite a bit (but not nearly finished) chelation before starting hbot. I also chelate during hbot and we seem to do so more successfully than chelation without hbot (more excretion). DS also gets a lot of antioxidants while hbotting. Rossignol's study wasn't done when I started hbot, but in the ASD kids they tested, oxidative stress was not increased by two different hbot protocols. Inflammation was reduced, esp among those kids with high inflammation to start with (my ds would fall into that category). I would think it reasonable to assume that at least some of the ASD kids Rossignol used were mercury toxic, fwiw. Also, I have corresponded with/read the posts of lots of parents with asd kids who did hbot with fabulous results but no chelation prior to that, again fwiw. Anita > > Hi Mandi, Anita, Do you know what Andy Cutler's view is on HBOT. What does > he think about doing HBOT with kids who have mercury hanging around in the > brain. > > Thanks Gillian. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Going only from what he's said on AM, not from any special knowledge, when I was looking into this Cutler seemed to think that the oxidative stress caused by mercury (which is substantial) would be the main reason why you wouldn't want to hbot a mercury toxic individual. I may certainly have missed something that he said though. In looking at the research, it goes both ways for increased oxidative stress from hbot. That is, hbot in some studies increases it, in some it reduced it, in some it remained the same. Some of the studies are on animals, some on people, some don't say if they used antioxidants, etc. It was hard for me to draw any definite conclusion, but people with more knowledge might have an easier time of that. For my own kid, we had done quite a bit (but not nearly finished) chelation before starting hbot. I also chelate during hbot and we seem to do so more successfully than chelation without hbot (more excretion). DS also gets a lot of antioxidants while hbotting. Rossignol's study wasn't done when I started hbot, but in the ASD kids they tested, oxidative stress was not increased by two different hbot protocols. Inflammation was reduced, esp among those kids with high inflammation to start with (my ds would fall into that category). I would think it reasonable to assume that at least some of the ASD kids Rossignol used were mercury toxic, fwiw. Also, I have corresponded with/read the posts of lots of parents with asd kids who did hbot with fabulous results but no chelation prior to that, again fwiw. Anita > > Hi Mandi, Anita, Do you know what Andy Cutler's view is on HBOT. What does > he think about doing HBOT with kids who have mercury hanging around in the > brain. > > Thanks Gillian. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 I thought Rossignol's studies so far only established that it was safe rather than effective? I can't see how HBOT can not increase oxidative stress -- it increases oxygen delivery to the brain -- oxygen is a poison which we have adapted to breathing but it still damages us ie causes oxydative stress which ultimately ages and then kills us. Under low pressures surely that is only equivalent to swimming down to the bottom of the swimming pool, higher pressures mean going deeper No? I haven't done it at all because I could only find safety studies rather than any that said it was effective Sally Anita wrote: > > Going only from what he's said on AM, not from any special knowledge, > when I was looking into this Cutler seemed to think that the > oxidative stress caused by mercury (which is substantial) would be > the main reason why you wouldn't want to hbot a mercury toxic > individual. I may certainly have missed something that he said > though. > > In looking at the research, it goes both ways for increased oxidative > stress from hbot. That is, hbot in some studies increases it, in > some it reduced it, in some it remained the same. Some of the > studies are on animals, some on people, some don't say if they used > antioxidants, etc. It was hard for me to draw any definite > conclusion, but people with more knowledge might have an easier time > of that. > > For my own kid, we had done quite a bit (but not nearly finished) > chelation before starting hbot. I also chelate during hbot and we > seem to do so more successfully than chelation without hbot (more > excretion). DS also gets a lot of antioxidants while hbotting. > Rossignol's study wasn't done when I started hbot, but in the ASD > kids they tested, oxidative stress was not increased by two different > hbot protocols. Inflammation was reduced, esp among those kids with > high inflammation to start with (my ds would fall into that > category). I would think it reasonable to assume that at least some > of the ASD kids Rossignol used were mercury toxic, fwiw. Also, I > have corresponded with/read the posts of lots of parents with asd > kids who did hbot with fabulous results but no chelation prior to > that, again fwiw. > > Anita > > > > > > Hi Mandi, Anita, Do you know what Andy Cutler's view is on HBOT. > What does > > he think about doing HBOT with kids who have mercury hanging around > in the > > brain. > > > > Thanks Gillian. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1821 - Release Date: 30/11/2008 17:53 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Part of the problem with this whole area, much like every other treatment asd parents are using, is the number of variables. In hbot, you have the oxygen variable plus the variety of pressures possible. Even in R's paper above they talk about how 02 alone can increase inflammation but pressure reduces it. That's without factoring in the variables in kids, which might be huge. Rossignol's study did show improvements in kids. I've talked with/read about many, many parents who saw big improvements and a much smaller number of parents who saw nothing or something then nothing, or things got worse (actually only read about 2 or 3 of those). It's one of the treatments that has really helped ds's gut, sleep, and happiness. No miracles, like a few other parents have seen, but those three things are very important to us and worth the effort/money and risk that goes with this (and every treatment). Anita pe , Eva family wrote: > > I thought Rossignol's studies so far only established that it was safe > rather than effective? > > I can't see how HBOT can not increase oxidative stress -- it increases > oxygen delivery to the brain -- oxygen is a poison which we have adapted > to breathing but it still damages us ie causes oxydative stress which > ultimately ages and then kills us. > > Under low pressures surely that is only equivalent to swimming down to > the bottom of the swimming pool, higher pressures mean going deeper No? > > I haven't done it at all because I could only find safety studies rather > than any that said it was effective > > Sally > > Anita wrote: > > > > Going only from what he's said on AM, not from any special knowledge, > > when I was looking into this Cutler seemed to think that the > > oxidative stress caused by mercury (which is substantial) would be > > the main reason why you wouldn't want to hbot a mercury toxic > > individual. I may certainly have missed something that he said > > though. > > > > In looking at the research, it goes both ways for increased oxidative > > stress from hbot. That is, hbot in some studies increases it, in > > some it reduced it, in some it remained the same. Some of the > > studies are on animals, some on people, some don't say if they used > > antioxidants, etc. It was hard for me to draw any definite > > conclusion, but people with more knowledge might have an easier time > > of that. > > > > For my own kid, we had done quite a bit (but not nearly finished) > > chelation before starting hbot. I also chelate during hbot and we > > seem to do so more successfully than chelation without hbot (more > > excretion). DS also gets a lot of antioxidants while hbotting. > > Rossignol's study wasn't done when I started hbot, but in the ASD > > kids they tested, oxidative stress was not increased by two different > > hbot protocols. Inflammation was reduced, esp among those kids with > > high inflammation to start with (my ds would fall into that > > category). I would think it reasonable to assume that at least some > > of the ASD kids Rossignol used were mercury toxic, fwiw. Also, I > > have corresponded with/read the posts of lots of parents with asd > > kids who did hbot with fabulous results but no chelation prior to > > that, again fwiw. > > > > Anita > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mandi, Anita, Do you know what Andy Cutler's view is on HBOT. > > What does > > > he think about doing HBOT with kids who have mercury hanging around > > in the > > > brain. > > > > > > Thanks Gillian. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1821 - Release Date: 30/11/2008 17:53 > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 When we went to the MS CENTRE I used to chat with the MS people and always asked them if they found the HBOT helpful. Most said very helpful Likely many of the MS patients are mercury toxic?? DS had great leaps with language on HBOT. We went weekly for almost a year. Only started chelation after HBOT. I want to do more HBOT, but this is making me nervous now. Also I saw a child, not mine, regressing on HBOT. Don't know details about him, but it was very upsetting to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 When we went to the MS CENTRE I used to chat with the MS people and always asked them if they found the HBOT helpful. Most said very helpful Likely many of the MS patients are mercury toxic?? DS had great leaps with language on HBOT. We went weekly for almost a year. Only started chelation after HBOT. I want to do more HBOT, but this is making me nervous now. Also I saw a child, not mine, regressing on HBOT. Don't know details about him, but it was very upsetting to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 When we went to the MS CENTRE I used to chat with the MS people and always asked them if they found the HBOT helpful. Most said very helpful Likely many of the MS patients are mercury toxic?? DS had great leaps with language on HBOT. We went weekly for almost a year. Only started chelation after HBOT. I want to do more HBOT, but this is making me nervous now. Also I saw a child, not mine, regressing on HBOT. Don't know details about him, but it was very upsetting to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 what makes you sure that it was the HBOT? Sally wrote: > > When we went to the MS CENTRE I used to chat with the MS people and > always asked them if they found the HBOT helpful. Most said very > helpful Likely many of the MS patients are mercury toxic?? > DS had great leaps with language on HBOT. We went weekly for almost a > year. Only started chelation after HBOT. I want to do more HBOT, but > this is making me nervous now. Also I saw a child, not > mine, regressing on HBOT. Don't know details about him, but it was > very upsetting to see. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 01/12/2008 08:23 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 what makes you sure that it was the HBOT? Sally wrote: > > When we went to the MS CENTRE I used to chat with the MS people and > always asked them if they found the HBOT helpful. Most said very > helpful Likely many of the MS patients are mercury toxic?? > DS had great leaps with language on HBOT. We went weekly for almost a > year. Only started chelation after HBOT. I want to do more HBOT, but > this is making me nervous now. Also I saw a child, not > mine, regressing on HBOT. Don't know details about him, but it was > very upsetting to see. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 01/12/2008 08:23 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 what makes you sure that it was the HBOT? Sally wrote: > > When we went to the MS CENTRE I used to chat with the MS people and > always asked them if they found the HBOT helpful. Most said very > helpful Likely many of the MS patients are mercury toxic?? > DS had great leaps with language on HBOT. We went weekly for almost a > year. Only started chelation after HBOT. I want to do more HBOT, but > this is making me nervous now. Also I saw a child, not > mine, regressing on HBOT. Don't know details about him, but it was > very upsetting to see. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 01/12/2008 08:23 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 > > When we went to the MS CENTRE I used to chat with the MS people and always asked them if they found the HBOT helpful. Most said very helpful Likely many of the MS patients are mercury toxic?? That's a good point . I also chat with as many people as I can at the MS centre. For some of the HBOT has been a miracle. I spoke to one young woman who after 10 dives had no more pain, could sleep again, increased mobility. She was just beaming telling me about it. Just thinking about it makes me teary-eyed again, as she was probably only in her early 30's and life had seemed so awful for her before that. > DS had great leaps with language on HBOT. We went weekly for almost a year. Only started chelation after HBOT. I want to do more HBOT, but this is making me nervous now. Also I saw a child, not mine, regressing on HBOT. Don't know details about him, but it was very upsetting to see. I am not one to dismiss regression stories; however, IMO it is important to understand that one-time stories are not always what they may seem. One of the moms I've spoken iwith, her son started seizures with HBOT. Now, I think this mom is smart and capable, but I also don't believe that she can know for sure that seizures started because of HBOT. Seizures happen in about 30% of our kids. If seizures happen to start while you've started HBOT it might look causal, but it could very likely be coincidental, especially as HBOT is used to alleviate seizures and can also stop seizures completely sometimes. There are some people who say that any HBOT below 2.4 for people with Lyme will cause regression. I'm not sure how common lyme is, but it does certainly seem to be a problem for at least some asd kids. If you've seen progress in the past with HBOT, it seems fairly likely that you'll see good things, rather than bad, in the future with it. We must be aware of regression/bad outcomes, etc, but every single treatment available to our kids will cause problems for at least one kid. We have to weigh the possible benefits (and for HBOT there truly are many) versus the possible problems and not become paralyzed by our fears. I'm saying this as a person with many fears and a tendancy towards paralysis :-( I think many of us are like this, given our life experiences. Anita > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 > > When we went to the MS CENTRE I used to chat with the MS people and always asked them if they found the HBOT helpful. Most said very helpful Likely many of the MS patients are mercury toxic?? That's a good point . I also chat with as many people as I can at the MS centre. For some of the HBOT has been a miracle. I spoke to one young woman who after 10 dives had no more pain, could sleep again, increased mobility. She was just beaming telling me about it. Just thinking about it makes me teary-eyed again, as she was probably only in her early 30's and life had seemed so awful for her before that. > DS had great leaps with language on HBOT. We went weekly for almost a year. Only started chelation after HBOT. I want to do more HBOT, but this is making me nervous now. Also I saw a child, not mine, regressing on HBOT. Don't know details about him, but it was very upsetting to see. I am not one to dismiss regression stories; however, IMO it is important to understand that one-time stories are not always what they may seem. One of the moms I've spoken iwith, her son started seizures with HBOT. Now, I think this mom is smart and capable, but I also don't believe that she can know for sure that seizures started because of HBOT. Seizures happen in about 30% of our kids. If seizures happen to start while you've started HBOT it might look causal, but it could very likely be coincidental, especially as HBOT is used to alleviate seizures and can also stop seizures completely sometimes. There are some people who say that any HBOT below 2.4 for people with Lyme will cause regression. I'm not sure how common lyme is, but it does certainly seem to be a problem for at least some asd kids. If you've seen progress in the past with HBOT, it seems fairly likely that you'll see good things, rather than bad, in the future with it. We must be aware of regression/bad outcomes, etc, but every single treatment available to our kids will cause problems for at least one kid. We have to weigh the possible benefits (and for HBOT there truly are many) versus the possible problems and not become paralyzed by our fears. I'm saying this as a person with many fears and a tendancy towards paralysis :-( I think many of us are like this, given our life experiences. Anita > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 > > When we went to the MS CENTRE I used to chat with the MS people and always asked them if they found the HBOT helpful. Most said very helpful Likely many of the MS patients are mercury toxic?? That's a good point . I also chat with as many people as I can at the MS centre. For some of the HBOT has been a miracle. I spoke to one young woman who after 10 dives had no more pain, could sleep again, increased mobility. She was just beaming telling me about it. Just thinking about it makes me teary-eyed again, as she was probably only in her early 30's and life had seemed so awful for her before that. > DS had great leaps with language on HBOT. We went weekly for almost a year. Only started chelation after HBOT. I want to do more HBOT, but this is making me nervous now. Also I saw a child, not mine, regressing on HBOT. Don't know details about him, but it was very upsetting to see. I am not one to dismiss regression stories; however, IMO it is important to understand that one-time stories are not always what they may seem. One of the moms I've spoken iwith, her son started seizures with HBOT. Now, I think this mom is smart and capable, but I also don't believe that she can know for sure that seizures started because of HBOT. Seizures happen in about 30% of our kids. If seizures happen to start while you've started HBOT it might look causal, but it could very likely be coincidental, especially as HBOT is used to alleviate seizures and can also stop seizures completely sometimes. There are some people who say that any HBOT below 2.4 for people with Lyme will cause regression. I'm not sure how common lyme is, but it does certainly seem to be a problem for at least some asd kids. If you've seen progress in the past with HBOT, it seems fairly likely that you'll see good things, rather than bad, in the future with it. We must be aware of regression/bad outcomes, etc, but every single treatment available to our kids will cause problems for at least one kid. We have to weigh the possible benefits (and for HBOT there truly are many) versus the possible problems and not become paralyzed by our fears. I'm saying this as a person with many fears and a tendancy towards paralysis :-( I think many of us are like this, given our life experiences. Anita > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 The dans! used to say that HBOT was something to be used when chelation was fairly well completed which made me think there is something to what Cutler had to say about HBOT. Many dans! still take this stance. Cutler does not make statements lightly, although he is conservative meaning if a treatment is beneficial to some but detrimental to a fair number of kids and you can't tell which kids might benefit and which won't, he's likely to err on the side of caution, but that's the way I think also. wrote:>> When we went to the MS CENTRE I used to chat with the MS people and > always asked them if they found the HBOT helpful. Most said very > helpful Likely many of the MS patients are mercury toxic??> DS had great leaps with language on HBOT. We went weekly for almost a > year. Only started chelation after HBOT. I want to do more HBOT, but > this is making me nervous now. Also I saw a child, not > mine, regressing on HBOT. Don't know details about him, but it was > very upsetting to see.> > > ---------------------------------------------------------->>> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 01/12/2008 08:23>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 The dans! used to say that HBOT was something to be used when chelation was fairly well completed which made me think there is something to what Cutler had to say about HBOT. Many dans! still take this stance. Cutler does not make statements lightly, although he is conservative meaning if a treatment is beneficial to some but detrimental to a fair number of kids and you can't tell which kids might benefit and which won't, he's likely to err on the side of caution, but that's the way I think also. wrote:>> When we went to the MS CENTRE I used to chat with the MS people and > always asked them if they found the HBOT helpful. Most said very > helpful Likely many of the MS patients are mercury toxic??> DS had great leaps with language on HBOT. We went weekly for almost a > year. Only started chelation after HBOT. I want to do more HBOT, but > this is making me nervous now. Also I saw a child, not > mine, regressing on HBOT. Don't know details about him, but it was > very upsetting to see.> > > ---------------------------------------------------------->>> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 01/12/2008 08:23>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 The dans! used to say that HBOT was something to be used when chelation was fairly well completed which made me think there is something to what Cutler had to say about HBOT. Many dans! still take this stance. Cutler does not make statements lightly, although he is conservative meaning if a treatment is beneficial to some but detrimental to a fair number of kids and you can't tell which kids might benefit and which won't, he's likely to err on the side of caution, but that's the way I think also. wrote:>> When we went to the MS CENTRE I used to chat with the MS people and > always asked them if they found the HBOT helpful. Most said very > helpful Likely many of the MS patients are mercury toxic??> DS had great leaps with language on HBOT. We went weekly for almost a > year. Only started chelation after HBOT. I want to do more HBOT, but > this is making me nervous now. Also I saw a child, not > mine, regressing on HBOT. Don't know details about him, but it was > very upsetting to see.> > > ---------------------------------------------------------->>> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.12/1822 - Release Date: 01/12/2008 08:23>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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