Re: how much is too much???

[Guest guest]

@@@@@@@@@ Bonny:

> 1) maybe i over eat. talking about overeating,

> i often think that i have to include some of everything, like,

> animal protien, fat, fermented vegetables, cooked vegetables,

> sometimes some grains, legumes, and soup, and a piece of fruit in

> every meal, sometimes some good cheese (which is very addictive )

but

> all of those things amount to a very big meal even if i have just a

> little of each kind. and it is true that more often than not i

stuff

> myself to the level that i don't wanna move at all after eating,

but

> what can i do ? gotta have some of everything. but maybe that's not

> a very good idea...

@@@@@@@@@

I've thought about that a lot too, and in practice I actually do

eat " a little of everything " in each meal, but they aren't big meals

at all, because it really is " a little " . I can fit a full meal of

all that stuff into about 500 calories, but I never eat grains and

legumes beyond the condiment level. I also don't eat fruit except

when the wild berries in my backyard are in season. But if you

don't wanna move at all after eating, then you're probably eating too

much!!

@@@@@@

> 2) even if i eat a lot of fat, it shouldn't make me fatter

> (theoretically.)

> but these foods are so good. they're good for you and they taste

> good. it's hard not to tell myself that " i'll just have one more

> bite . " but i'm wondering at the same time that it shouldn't be a

> problem even if i'm consuming a lot of high calary foods like fat

or

> Saured cream, theoretically.

@@@@@@@

No, if you eat a lot of anything you'll get fat! Theoretically you

won't overeat if your appestat is working, etc etc, but calories are

still calories at some level. The different metabolic properties of

fats don't override basic chemistry.

@@@@@@@@@

> 3) maybe the too-high-on-fat diet is not suitable for an asian. i

> don't know if there's any asians who are on this diet, and i'm

> wondering if my asian body is not That accustomed to large quantity

> of fat since my ancestors have been on a rice-based diet for

> thousands of years. but it's prevailing here that a diet of more

fat

> and less carb is better, but is it for Me???

@@@@@@@@@

I definitely don't know the answer to that, but I seriously doubt

that's an issue, and the wealthy pockets of asians would've eaten

pretty high-fat diets if they had the choice. People will always

pick fatty meats over rice. I would just ignore the whole genetic

thing and deal with your individual experience. The first step

would be to eat smaller meals.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " bonnyjesus " <bonnyjesus@...>

> 2) even if i eat a lot of fat, it shouldn't make me fatter

> (theoretically.)

> but these foods are so good. they're good for you and they taste

> good. it's hard not to tell myself that " i'll just have one more

> bite . " but i'm wondering at the same time that it shouldn't be a

> problem even if i'm consuming a lot of high calary foods like fat or

> Saured cream, theoretically.

Eating a lot will make you fat. Weight gain is actually common complaint

among followers of the Primal Diet. See how things go after a month of

not stuffing yourself silly as Aajonus recommends.

[Guest guest]

hi, bonnie -

>1) maybe i over eat. talking about overeating,

>i often think that i have to include some of everything, like,

>animal protien, fat, fermented vegetables, cooked vegetables,

>sometimes some grains, legumes, and soup, and a piece of fruit in

>every meal, sometimes some good cheese (which is very addictive )but

>all of those things amount to a very big meal even if i have just a

>little of each kind. and it is true that more often than not i stuff

>myself to the level that i don't wanna move at all after eating, but

>what can i do ? gotta have some of everything. but maybe that's not

>a very good idea...

yeah. i gotta agree about that. my meals during the day are *rarely* a mix.

at dinner we always have a meat and a veggie, and because we're dairy

freaks, every meal always contains a dairy! but throughout the day, first

off, we don't eat meals (we're currently oscillating between warrior

dieting and not so much). we snack on whatever the body wants - if that's a

bowl of kale (kale, glorious kale!), or a piece of coconut cream pie, so be it.

>2) even if i eat a lot of fat, it shouldn't make me fatter

>(theoretically.)

>but these foods are so good. they're good for you and they taste

>good. it's hard not to tell myself that " i'll just have one more

>bite . " but i'm wondering at the same time that it shouldn't be a

>problem even if i'm consuming a lot of high calary foods like fat or

>Saured cream, theoretically.

well, this is going to be my personal experience, so ymmv. we eat no

grains. i eat almost no starch. i eat plethoric (raw) dairy in all forms,

tons of coconut/coconut oil/coconut cream, piles of leafy green veggies and

cabbage (i'm very seasonal about veggies), about 1/2 piece of fruit a day,

nuts, eggs, beef/pork/salmon, and cod liver oil. and i'm losing weight

quite quickly. i don't count calories and i don't worry about how much i'm

eating at any point. i do try to not eat beyond being full, but other than

that, i don't even think about it.

in general, what makes you fat is carbs, not fats (boy, that's a simplified

statement!), so, except for the part that's coming next, perhaps try

cutting back on the carbs before you sacrafice the fats.

>3) maybe the too-high-on-fat diet is not suitable for an asian. i

>don't know if there's any asians who are on this diet, and i'm

>wondering if my asian body is not That accustomed to large quantity

>of fat since my ancestors have been on a rice-based diet for

>thousands of years. but it's prevailing here that a diet of more fat

>and less carb is better, but is it for Me???

now. i am in a bit of a conflict here, because i thoroughly believe that

more fats less carbs is the way to go. however, i also thoroughly believe

that you should eat as your ancestors ate. so if i were you, i'd probably

do two tests: the first test would last at least one week, and i'd eat a

lowest-possible carb diet. at the end of that week, how do you feel? (one

week isn't going to kill ya, ya know?) if you feel great, keep going. if

you feel not so great, stop. (keep in mind that if you're high carb now,

you may want to moderate and work your way down the week before, so you

don't have carb-addict cravings) if it doesn't seem to be working for you,

do another test, and this time for a week, eat only your native diet (be

sure to prepare the foods traditionally and not modern-conveniencely). be

crazy fanatic about what you allow yourself during the tests (it's just one

week, you can do it). then evaluate. how did you feel? which way made you

feel best?

once you find that, then you can fine tune, ya know? adding in a few carbs

or a few non-native fats...

-katja

[Guest guest]

Does the warrior diet solve the problem of overeating, as you are only

overeating one time a day?

Jafa

Berg <bberg@...> wrote:

Eating a lot will make you fat. Weight gain is actually common complaint

among followers of the Primal Diet. See how things go after a month of

not stuffing yourself silly as Aajonus recommends.

[Guest guest]

Bonny-

>3) maybe the too-high-on-fat diet is not suitable for an asian. i

>don't know if there's any asians who are on this diet,

The Okinawan diet was very high in fat, and my understanding is that the

cuisine in many areas of China was traditionally heavy in fatty pork, so

there's no reason to assume a priori that because you're Asian you ought to

eat less fat. Perhaps you have a greater tolerance to rice than, say, I

do, but that might be it.

-

[Guest guest]

Mike-

>No, if you eat a lot of anything you'll get fat! Theoretically you

>won't overeat if your appestat is working, etc etc, but calories are

>still calories at some level. The different metabolic properties of

>fats don't override basic chemistry.

Actually there's good reason to think a calorie is not just a calorie.

First, do you know how food calories are actually measured? Not in

anything even remotely resembling a biological system, but in a bomb

calorimeter. Food is quite literally burned, and the heat energy given off

is measured. Needless to say, this doesn't account for any

subtleties. Consider the way lactobacteria digest lactose, for

example. They turn it into lactic acid, having extracted a relatively

small amount of energy from it. I'm sure those bacteria would be quite

amused to be told by calorie scientists that they're actually consuming and

utilizing much more energy than they actually are.

Second, the calorie theory, in which the " calories " of all the substances

that enter your mouth are totted up and assumed to be the measure of your

energy intake, completely fails to account for that portion of your food

which is used for structural purposes rather than energy, and that portion

varies from person to person and day to day and with the type of food you

eat. Based on studies like Pottenger's cats, I'm pretty sure that raw and

rare meat contributes more protein to structure than well-done meat, for

example, though I'd love to see some work done on meat in broth-based soups.

Third, it doesn't account for variations in waste heat production, though

calling it " waste " heat is somewhat misleading. I notice, for example,

that on days when I eat more saturated long-chain animal fat, I produce

more heat, and I do it more evenly across my body. Back when I was a carb

junky, I often had cold feet. Not so nowadays. Since I have a thyroid

problem, I have at times tracked my body temperature (albeit just measured

in one place -- mouth or armpit) fairly assiduously, and I can assure you

I'm not imagining this phenomen.

Now, granted, the science in this field is still in its infancy. A recent

poorly-designed study monitored twins, one on a supposedly low-carb diet

and one on a low-fat diet, both fed the same number of calories, and

measured all inputs and all outputs, supposedly including heat. The public

report at least stated that the only difference was a tiny bit of ketone

excretion from the low-carber. But as many low-carbers and NT-ers know,

" low carb " diets in experiments are generally too high in carbs and too low

in fat, and often the effects take some time to develop. Also, these

studies often don't give people enough food, counterintuitive as that may

seem, which prompts the body to go into some degree of starvation mode,

conserving everything it possibly can -- and, incidentally, cutting way

down on the use of food for structural purposes. (And BTW, when I speak of

" structural " uses for food, I mean that in the broadest possible sense,

including the formation of hormones and the like.) And the studies rarely

last long enough. It takes time for the body to make this kind of

metabolic shift.

To return to anecdotal evidence, I eat way more calories on a high-fat

low-carb diet than I could or did on a high-carb diet, and yet I've lost a

good deal of weight and continue to do so.

So please, put your prescriptive asceticism to rest.

-

[Guest guest]

>> i am in a bit of a conflict here, because i thoroughly believe that

more fats less carbs is the way to go. however, i also thoroughly believe

that you should eat as your ancestors ate. <<

I don't agree with this. I think each of us should eat in the way that WE feel

best on. Many of us have mixed ancestry, some of our ancestral groups deviated

away from their healthy traditional diets longer ago than others, and no matter

WHAT our ancestors ate, if we don't do well on that diet, it's not right for us.

As to the more fat/less carbs, I think that extremely high fat, low carb diets

are therapeutic diets for people with insulin resistance and a lot of excess

body fat. I don't think that normal people, or people with just a few pounds to

lose, need ULTRA high fat, ULTRA low carb diets - they just need to dump the

refined carbs and eat lots of good fat. But optimum levels of those foods will

vary from individual to individual, and over time for individuals.

I would experiment with different ways of eating, within an NT framework, until

I found the one that made me feel the best.

Christie

[Guest guest]

At 11:51 AM 3/10/2004, you wrote:

> >> i am in a bit of a conflict here, because i thoroughly believe that

>more fats less carbs is the way to go. however, i also thoroughly believe

>that you should eat as your ancestors ate. <<

>

>I don't agree with this. I think each of us should eat in the way that WE

>feel best on. Many of us have mixed ancestry, some of our ancestral groups

>deviated away from their healthy traditional diets longer ago than others,

>and no matter WHAT our ancestors ate, if we don't do well on that diet,

>it's not right for us.

uh, yeah. hee. this sounds a lot more reasonable than what i said. and

also, i think, closer to what i meant.

perhaps what i meant was that there's merit to the theory of ancestral

eating. probably not for everyone, but i don't think it should be totally

discarded out of hand. i think i'm trying to say i feel wholistic about it.

>I would experiment with different ways of eating, within an NT framework,

>until I found the one that made me feel the best.

yeah! and also, i think the most important thing is to be checking in with

your body regularly. try to really hear what your body wants at any given

time - are you still hungry? are you full? are you hungry for a specific

thing (beyond a grain or sugar addiction, obvioulsy)? do you feel like a

meal or a snack? does your " system " for eating need some fine-tuning

according to activity or season or whatever?

being in touch with what your body needs is - ya know - paramount to

fulfilling those nees

-katja

[Guest guest]

Bonny, check out Metabolic Typing. There is a book by that name and now Dr.

Mercola's is pushing the theory. The theory is some people are better with

more carbs, other with more proteins and fats.

I also feel compelled to eat a little from every food group at each meal but

really, that's nuts, and can lead to overeating. Every mom knows about the

studies done on older babies who were given a variety of healthy foods at

each meal. Over the course of several weeks they naturally chose a very

balanced diet even though that wasn't reflected at each meal. Some meals

were all carb, some were all protein, etc. If you are fairly new to NT you

are probably enjoying your honeymoon phase with saturated fats, which may

taper off somewhat. The more i follow this way of eating the more i tune

into what my body craves.

Elaine

> well, thanks for the compliment, i think i learn a lot from my

> boyfriend who has a real physics/chemistry background and i'm just

> trying to find myself the best thing to put in my mouth !!

[Guest guest]

wow i got so much thoughtful responses it's amazing !! now i feel

like staring at the computer all the time...(which is not so good)

1) so i must clarify that i'm a taiwanese (the little island off the

coast of southern china), and i was raised to eat a rice-based diet,

like, a small ball of rice with all sorts of other things like meat,

fish, steamed vegetables and soup. my mom's cooking was pretty

traditional although we still had a lot of junk food around.

although a high-fat diet makes me feel very good physically and

mentally, i'm surprised to find that i'm also growing a weird belly.

2) i'm very used to eating three meals a day without any sanck,

because i kinda think that if i have well-prepared meals at definite

times of a day i don't have to snack (and i don't have time to snack

when running around the campus anyways, and there's no real food to

be found on college campus these days). and i feel like i need a

decent breakfast or i'd ruin my day of learning...so the warrior

diet would be a lil' troublesome for me.

3) when i was on the aajonous raw meat diet i ate probably a pound

of raw beef everyday along with big chunks of butter and some

sauerkraut. there was very little vegetable carbs to be found in my

diet, let alone grains carb. but still i was growing a belly. with

all the fat/carb and calory theory, i really don't know what's going

on with my belly.

4) so what i'm trying to do now is:

a) try not to stuff myself but to just have enough amount every

meal.

i don't have to have everything in one meal, maybe just

everything distributed in one day.

c) for now cut down the intake of higher-carb foods and get

energy mainly on fat

5) i'll experiment on this way of eating for now, and see what

happens. as for now i'm measuring my belly everyday. and i really

think that NT is a right way to go.

anyways today there's the lovely sun in seattle (pretty miracle) and

i feel very cheered up already !! thank you guys !!

bonny

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> Bonny-

>

> >3) maybe the too-high-on-fat diet is not suitable for an asian. i

> >don't know if there's any asians who are on this diet,

>

> The Okinawan diet was very high in fat, and my understanding is

that the

> cuisine in many areas of China was traditionally heavy in fatty

pork, so

> there's no reason to assume a priori that because you're Asian you

ought to

> eat less fat. Perhaps you have a greater tolerance to rice than,

say, I

> do, but that might be it.

>

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

At 03:44 AM 3/10/04 -0000, Mike wrote:

>I've thought about that a lot too, and in practice I actually do

>eat " a little of everything " in each meal, but they aren't big meals

>at all, because it really is " a little " . I can fit a full meal of

>all that stuff into about 500 calories, but I never eat grains and

>legumes beyond the condiment level. I also don't eat fruit except

>when the wild berries in my backyard are in season. But if you

>don't wanna move at all after eating, then you're probably eating too

>much!!

>

Okay, inquiring minds want to know. Define " a little " of " animal

protein, fat, fermented vegetables, cooked vegetables, sometimes some

grains, legumes, and soup, and a piece of fruit in every meal, sometimes

some good cheese (which is very addictive) " in every meal. (list of

ingredients provided by Bonny)

I mean, what do you do, eat a teaspoon of butter, an ounce of meat, three

broccoli stems and a couple of forkfuls of sauerkraut etc.? Seriously,

I'm just wondering - I NEVER have THAT much variety in any given meal,

although I balance it all out during the course of a day or two.

Probably because I'm far too lazy to think THAT much about food ... sounds

too much like " oh, gotta have some of this and some of this and some of

this " and frankly, for every meal, that's just way too much mental effort

for me. <g> But I'd still love to know how you manage it.

MFJ

There are no stupid questions, but there are plenty of silly ones.

[Guest guest]

haha, for those who want to have everything in a meal, here's how i

do it.

i usually get up at 6 every morning to prepare my breakfast. if i

have some grains or legumes they're already soaked over night in the

morning. so, use the soup (so you get your soup there)and let the

grains or legumes boil while you go do other things. when it's about

to be done toss some vegetables in so they get steamed along with

the soup (so there's the cooked vegetable). while waiting for the

vegetables to be done i'd cut up some meat, and take out the

fermented vegetables, some butter, some saur cream and a piece of

fruit from the fridge. when i put them all on the plate the

grains/legume/soup/vegetables is about to be done too. then i'd

fetch my " everything soup " from the stove and i'd have my meal all

assembled. when i have rice i'd crack a raw egg yolk in it, and

sometimes when the soup is cold enough i'd have a cap of cod liver

oil in it, or some coconut cream.

and it takes about 15-20 minutes to prepare. and in the morning i

can do homework, read, go to the bathroom, take a shower, eat and

get ready for school at 8:30 no problem. i make it a routine so

there's no need to Think about it.but i guess i can cut down on the

amount of food for now.

bonny

> >I've thought about that a lot too, and in practice I actually do

> >eat " a little of everything " in each meal, but they aren't big

meals

> >at all, because it really is " a little " . I can fit a full meal

of

> >all that stuff into about 500 calories, but I never eat grains

and

> >legumes beyond the condiment level. I also don't eat fruit

except

> >when the wild berries in my backyard are in season. But if you

> >don't wanna move at all after eating, then you're probably eating

too

> >much!!

> >

>

> Okay, inquiring minds want to know. Define " a little " of " animal

> protein, fat, fermented vegetables, cooked vegetables, sometimes

some

> grains, legumes, and soup, and a piece of fruit in every meal,

sometimes

> some good cheese (which is very addictive) " in every meal.

(list of

> ingredients provided by Bonny)

>

> I mean, what do you do, eat a teaspoon of butter, an ounce of

meat, three

> broccoli stems and a couple of forkfuls of sauerkraut etc.?

Seriously,

> I'm just wondering - I NEVER have THAT much variety in any given

meal,

> although I balance it all out during the course of a day or two.

> Probably because I'm far too lazy to think THAT much about

food ... sounds

> too much like " oh, gotta have some of this and some of this and

some of

> this " and frankly, for every meal, that's just way too much mental

effort

> for me. <g> But I'd still love to know how you manage it.

>

>

>

>

>

> MFJ

> There are no stupid questions, but there are plenty of silly ones.

[Guest guest]

Bonny -

2) i'm very used to eating three meals a day without any sanck,

because i kinda think that if i have well-prepared meals at definite

times of a day i don't have to snack (and i don't have time to snack

when running around the campus anyways, and there's no real food to

be found on college campus these days). and i feel like i need a

decent breakfast or i'd ruin my day of learning...so the warrior

diet would be a lil' troublesome for me.

The undereating phase of the warrior diet doesn't mean not eating. I have a

kefir smoothie with bananas, raw eggs, ground flax seed, raw honey, etc. This

really keeps me going. Then during the day I snack on fruit, raw veggies, nuts,

and drink raw milk.

I've been on the Warrior Diet for 6 months now and it works well for me. The

best is the time saving. Meal preparation and cleanup time is reduced.

Snacking is perfect for when you're running around on campus

(carrot/cucumber/celery sticks, nuts, etc). During the day I have very little

free time, so WD is convenient. I was always plagued with after-lunch

sleepies, on the WD, I don't get sleepy.

But whether WD will get rid of your tummy - I don't know. My point is don't

rule WD out before you know about it or have experienced it.

- Filippa

[Guest guest]

hmm, interesting, i think i'll look into it more. i know if i search

for warrior diet then i'll get a lot of information either from this

list or from the internet. thanks a lot anyways !!

bonny

--- In , " Filippa " <filippa91@y...>

wrote:

> Bonny -

>

> 2) i'm very used to eating three meals a day without any sanck,

> because i kinda think that if i have well-prepared meals at

definite

> times of a day i don't have to snack (and i don't have time to

snack

> when running around the campus anyways, and there's no real food

to

> be found on college campus these days). and i feel like i need a

> decent breakfast or i'd ruin my day of learning...so the warrior

> diet would be a lil' troublesome for me.

>

>

> The undereating phase of the warrior diet doesn't mean not

eating. I have a kefir smoothie with bananas, raw eggs, ground flax

seed, raw honey, etc. This really keeps me going. Then during the

day I snack on fruit, raw veggies, nuts, and drink raw milk.

>

> I've been on the Warrior Diet for 6 months now and it works well

for me. The best is the time saving. Meal preparation and cleanup

time is reduced. Snacking is perfect for when you're running around

on campus (carrot/cucumber/celery sticks, nuts, etc). During the

day I have very little free time, so WD is convenient. I was

always plagued with after-lunch sleepies, on the WD, I don't get

sleepy.

>

> But whether WD will get rid of your tummy - I don't know. My

point is don't rule WD out before you know about it or have

experienced it.

>

> - Filippa

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bonny-

>although a high-fat diet makes me feel very good physically and

>mentally, i'm surprised to find that i'm also growing a weird belly.

Well, it's not impossible that you are or were just eating too much for

your system, but it's also possible that your digestion is, at least for

the time, having some trouble with the change. Since sauerkraut didn't

address the problem you might want to try some other fermented

foods. Homemade yoghurt or kefir, for example. You might even experiment

with digestive aids like enzymes, but go the food route first.

-

[Guest guest]

hmm, interesting, i think i'll look into it more. i know if i search

for warrior diet then i'll get a lot of information either from this

list or from the internet. thanks a lot anyways !!

bonny

--------------------------------------------------------

This might help Bonny though I guess you've already checked out the warrior diet

website:

http://www.warriordiet.com/how2follow.html

I decided to try the warrior diet because of people's good results in the

native_nutrition crowd.

Filippa