Bonny's Boyfriend -- fibromayalga

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

My girlfriend wrote to the list a couple of days ago and was so

impressed by the wonderful response which she got from all the people

on the list that I've decided it might be good to fire a few

questions off at the group.

The questions are down at the bottom but it might be helpful to know

what I've already done.

First a little background. I'm 20 years old and have been suffering

from a once extremely severe case of fibromayalga for the past 2

years. The onset was after a period of severe stress and a sinus

infection. For those of you who don't know what it is, the leading

theory of M.D. researchers in the field suggests that fibromayalga is

a malfunction in the ATP production of the mitochondria throughout

the body. This causes most of your glands (including your liver) to

shut down leading to extreme fatigue, damage to most of your organs

and a long and painful road to recovery. There is currently a drug

which its developers have said has had many successes but I just

discovered this and havn't tried it. Needless to say there are other

theories.

The upshot of the whole thing was that I lived the past 2 years of my

life in almost un-bearable pain, lacked energy even needed to climb

stairs or think straight and devoted almost every one of my waking

minutes (which weren't many) to nutrition research. That's how, after

seeing countless naturopaths, doctors and wierd health practitioners,

I found Sally Fallon, Aajonus Vonderplanitz, Donna Gates,

Howell, Jordan Ruban and a million million other nutritionists.

I tried many many many diets... first one high in salads, olive oil

and cooked meats. I was so hungry at this point that I would eat 4

pounds of chicken in a sitting and yet I was constantly low energy

and constipated for weeks at a time. The next diet I tried was vegan

and raw vegan diets. My muscle fatigue got so bad that I had to sit

when I tried to climb long hills. I then cooked soups all the time

and ate sprouted seeds... this may have helped but I still really

felt like something was missing. During this whole period I was

popping supplements like candy. I was going to college and the

pressure was enormous and the fatigue wouldnt go away.

Finally in desperation I started eating like Aajonus Vonderplanitz

something clicked... mabey fibromayalga has to do with a b12

deficiency or mabey its a fat deficiency. I got hold of raw beef and

ate it with raw eggs and butter most days. It began to slowly and

painfully heal me... I ate raw fish, raw beef, raw butter daily for

most meals and slowly the fatigue began to dissappear. 9 months

passed and at least I could walk again. Something was missing

though... I was slightly depressed by grey weather and couldn't seem

to get myself to think straight. I added salt and saurkraut and that

immediately lifted the depression as well as making my stool nice and

regular again.

Recently --past 2 weeks-- I jumped over to Sally Fallon because I've

learned to listen to my instinct and science and both tell me to eat

a larger variety of foods and to include vegetables. In addition to

flare-ups of fatigue, I still can't seem to get the dark circles

under my eyes and along the bridge of my nose to go away and my

tongue is still covered in white gunk which comes and goes (usually

with increased use of saurkraut and kvass). Chinese medicine would

suggest that these are signs of liver, kidney and adrenal gland

weakness, and I can at least attest to the adrenal gland part. My

hands sweat if I'm under any stress and adrenal stimulating foods are

my #1 enemy in making my days fun or painful.

I'm so much better than I was a year ago its scary! I can walk, talk

and I'm beginning to laugh again. I can also hold a steady job and

I've begun to enjoy my life again.

Here's the question part:

I've been a bit alarmed by the changes which have occurred with the

addition of bone broths, cooked veggies (and a few raw), cooked fats,

a very small amount of cooked protien, seasonings, a minute quantity

of lentils and a couple of meals with a bit of rice. I must admit

that my disposition has improved with the addition of ?... something,

but I've begun to feel a bit of fatigue in my legs again, my hands

are sweating quite a bit more than they were a while ago, I've seen a

pimple (havn't had one for a while) and my hands are sometimes

swollen with liquid.

I know that the rice and lentils didn't work for me as they put me

into a total brain fog, but the veggies seem like they're greately

needed and I'm still eating brown rice miso soup since I could use

the B5 and the sugar content is lower when its been fermented.

I'm a total optimist and I believe that these changes are my body

doing some healing and adjusting to the new foods. I've read that

cortisol levels need time to adjust with any change in diets

especially an increase in sugars. Cooked foods do take some energy to

digest which is one thing I'm a bit short on at the moment. As for

the sweaty palms I was working 8 hours 5 days a week... (deli work)

in a very stressful enviornment (night hours) and I may have over-

taxed my adrenals a bit again... I'm no longer at that job and I'll

have time to sleep again.

What I was doing before was evolving more and more into Sally Fallon

diet so I really see this as the next logical step, still I'd like

some feedback on others experiences.

Questions:

1. Has anyone on this list had CFS or fibromayalga and recovered from

it with nourishing traditions diet? (I'm almost there)

2. Has anyone ever seen dark circles around the eyes go away

3. Do any of you have any theories why I might be experiencing some

fatigue after beginning to cook more and eat more SWF foods

4. If you recovered from CFS did you use this gnuf... whatever it is

decongestant therapy?

MOST IMPORTANT

5. If there's one thing I'm bad it, its dealing with stress and fear

in my life. Its how I believe I got into this whole mess in the first

place. I've learned so much about how to manage it for myself but I'm

always interested in other people's ideas since I think its THE most

important thing in health which I know the LEAST about. What do you

think?

Thanks all,

-Walt

[Guest guest]

Hi Walt,

It's really beneficial for everyone when someone gives a great clear

description of their experiences like that. Good move. Only good

can come of it. I don't know anything about your condition in

particular, but I have a few random comments below.

@@@@@@@

I added salt and saurkraut and that

> immediately lifted the depression as well as making my stool nice

and

> regular again.

@@@@@

I'd bet it's the sauerkraut, not the salt. Probiotics. Bingo. The

classic story. Definitely try to stick with the sauerkraut, or

kimchi, kombucha, kefir, etc. Really crucial for a lot of people it

seems.

@@@@@@@@

> I know that the rice and lentils didn't work for me as they put me

> into a total brain fog, but the veggies seem like they're greately

> needed and I'm still eating brown rice miso soup since I could use

> the B5 and the sugar content is lower when its been fermented.

@@@@@@@@@@@

If you're implying that brown rice or miso are good B5 sources, then

that's definitely not true. Well, brown rice is a fairly good B5

source, but not even in the same ballpark as other common foods.

You can get at least as much from many veggies, more than twice as

much from eggs or brain, three of four times as much from some

greens, and upwards of 10-25 times (!!!) as much from mushrooms,

liver, kidneys, and heart. You definitely do not need brown rice or

miso, or any other grains or legumes for *anything* at all. There

are always better sources for any given nutrient, and fatty meats and

veggies (and maybe some fruits) are always the safest bet for

complicated health situations. I eat raw sprouted legumes though,

because they're nutritious and I love the flavor.

It sounds like there are a lot of variables changing together in your

case, so hard to draw a lot of conclusions, but overall really

wonderful progress. I'm not an expert, but ya know, breathing

exercises, yoga, exercise in general, etc, lots of fat, meats,

veggies, probiotic foods... Even though I eat a lot of raw animal

foods, like organ meats, muscle meats, eggs, dairy, etc, I'm not so

convinced that there's such a huge issue with raw vs cooked; I really

don't know, but that distinction might be very overrated. Maybe

there is really is something big going on with enzymes for some

people. I know a lot of people on this list have had great success

with enzyme pills and stuff too. I don't know, definitely focus on

the probiotic and enzyme side of things and just go for variety with

foods. That's my intuition, but I'm not very knowledgeable about

any of this... Oh yeah, don't forget about trace minerals--sea

greens are best for that, and nuts are good too, but maybe nuts would

be a digestive issue (seed foods always throw up a red flag). So,

yeah, small amounts of organ meats, sea greens, all the other stuff

you're eating, can't go wrong... Maybe even some fruits like figs,

dates, apricots, berries, etc to balance things out if your looking

for " safe carbs " ...

It sounds like you already know a lot more about this stuff than most

of us! I'm sure this is just a temporary setback and you're doing

all kinds of great stuff to get past it.

Oh yeah, by the way, since you're into Aajonus, if you don't know

there's a useful Group ( " AV Skeptics "

<AV-Skeptics/>) where some guy

mostly just bashes Aajonus, but not without a decent percentage of

substance; there's not much activity and I only check it like once a

month, but it's useful to balance out the foolish mysticism and " true

believer " side of that scene. Could give a useful perspective, but I

wouldn't take any side of that stuff too seriously. Personally I

take little bits and pieces from all over the place...

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

Walt-

You have my sympathies. For probably somewhat different root causes I've

suffered a lot of what you have over the years, so with a little luck, some

of my experiences ought to be of use to you.

>I was slightly depressed by grey weather and couldn't seem

>to get myself to think straight.

Did your thinking problem only crop up on grey days, or all the

time? During that time were you outside a lot? Problems on overcast days

could suggest you need some kind of bright light, per

http://www.brightenyourlife.info/. That's made a lot of difference to

me. It also might be suggestive of a vitamin D deficiency. A good CLO

(cod liver oil) could help, as could proper sun exposure or other

supplementation.

>and my

>tongue is still covered in white gunk which comes and goes (usually

>with increased use of saurkraut and kvass).

I'm not sure about the sulfur content of beets, but cabbage is a major

contributor. Is the white gunk associated with bad breath? That would be

from certain natural and normally helpful bacteria in your mouth and throat

digesting sulfur-containing proteins and producing volatile sulfur

compounds which contribute mightily to bad breath and are often visible as

a layer of white gunk on your tongue and even in other parts of your mouth

and throat. I'm not sure what one can do on a fundamental, systemic level

about that sort of bacterial imbalance, because I don't know what other

beneficial bacteria would normally compete with those organisms and keep

their populations in check in the mouth.

>I know that the rice and lentils didn't work for me as they put me

>into a total brain fog, but the veggies seem like they're greately

>needed and I'm still eating brown rice miso soup since I could use

>the B5 and the sugar content is lower when its been fermented.

First, I second what Mike said. Forget about the rice as a B5 source. And

since you have chronic fatigue, I'd go further and strongly urge you to

forgo all grains entirely. The same goes for soy, even fermented into

miso. It's just not worth it, especially because virtually all soy

nowadays seems to have much more in the way of isoflavones than traditional

soy did.

>I've read that

>cortisol levels need time to adjust with any change in diets

>especially an increase in sugars.

Given your adrenal problems, I'd suggest avoiding all sugary foods -- and

don't count on fermentation too much. In the end, it's all sugar;

fermentation just spreads the hit out over time. Vegetables are great, but

in your condition you should probably avoid the starchy and sugary ones.

Are you eating any organ meats? Probably the single most effective thing

I've found for energy and fatigue is raw bison liver, though I suspect that

raw liver from any healthy grass-fed ruminant raised on good soil would do

the trick. I eat quite a bit -- two and a half to three pounds a week, I'd

say -- and over time, it makes a massive difference. Here's a great little

abstract which I think has been posted to this list before:

>> " K Ershoff, Ph. D described a classic experiment in the

>>July, 1951, Proceedings of the Society for Experimental Biology and

>>Medicine, indicating that liver contains a mysterious anti-fatigue

>>factor. He divided laboratory rats into three groups. The first ate a

>>basic diet, fortified with 11 vitamins. The second ate the same diet,

>>along with an additional supply of vitamin B complex. The third ate

>>the original diet, but instead of vitamin B complex, 10 percent-

>>powdered liver was added to their rations.

>>After several weeks, the animals were placed one by one into a drum

>>of cold water from which they could not climb out. They literally

>>were forced to sink or swim. Rats in the first group swam for an

>>average 13.3 minutes before giving up. The second group which had the

>>added fortifications of B vitamins, swam for an average of 13.4

>>minutes. Of the last group of rats, the ones receiving liver, three

>>swam for 63,83 and 87 minutes. The other nine rats in this group were

>>still swimming vigorously at the end of two hours when the test was

>>terminated. Something in the liver had prevented them from becoming

>>exhausted. To this day scientists have not been able to pin a label

>>on this anti-fatigue factor. "

>5. If there's one thing I'm bad it, its dealing with stress and fear

>in my life. Its how I believe I got into this whole mess in the first

>place. I've learned so much about how to manage it for myself but I'm

>always interested in other people's ideas since I think its THE most

>important thing in health which I know the LEAST about. What do you

>think?

For certain kinds of stress, I've found that EFT (promoted heavily by

Mercola) is very, very effective. When I use it for the right kind of

stressor, it's like waving a magic wand. At the very least I'd say it's

worth experimenting with.

Hope this helps,

-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/10/04 12:02:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Idol@... writes:

> First, I second what Mike said. Forget about the rice as a B5 source. And

>

> since you have chronic fatigue, I'd go further and strongly urge you to

> forgo all grains entirely.

I don't know about B5, but B6 from rice is almost entirely unabsorbable,

according to a study on Medline. They used a variety of foods, mostly plant

foods, and only two crappy animal foods-- dried milk and eggs. The animal

foods,

crappy as they were, were 11% more absorbable than the mean plant food

absorption, but rye topped the list.

Rice, however, was anomalous, having only about 10% absorption of B6,

completely dissociated from an otherwise more or less linear continuum of

absorbability from the other foods.

Suze mentioned that could be unique to the particular strain of rice they

were using, but until I get more information, I'm going to extrapolate and

consider rice to not be a good source of any nutrition.

Chris