RE: raw vs cooked plant foods

[Guest guest]

************* Mike

I believe that all brassicas contain goitrogens, not just

cabbage...

***************

True. - D

@@@@ Deanna:

Isn't calcium (among other nutrients) not available from the juice of

vegetables?

@@@@

************ Mike

This couldn't possibly be true! The main argument against juicing is

just that it concentrates certain things, like sugars, antinutrients,

toxins, etc, but also nutrients! I've never heard any argument that

nutrients would be less available, and indeed the very opposite is

the prevailing wisdom! If anything, calcium and other minerals would

be much more available in vegetable juice due to being liberated from

fiber.

************

This I heard in the grapevine. Now isn't the calcium from collards more

accessible when those greens are cooked? How about fermented? - D

@@@ Deanna:

Isn't most fruit best raw? including tomatoes, cucs and avocados?

@@@

******** Mike

I have never heard of any argument that fruit is better cooked,

unless you're specifically aiming for lycopene from tomatoes or

something narrow like that, in which case the choice of processing is

based on specific target nutrients, which would vary according to

dietary and epistemological context. And for the purposes of

reasoning about optimal methods of processing, I agree it is much

more insightful to use botanical categories instead of culinary

ones.

***********

Now, my big book with all this nutritional data of raw vs. cooked is at a

friend's house presently. But the only thing I have seen is apples (which

mentioned, btw, and may be able to expand upon better than I) contain

the mycotoxin patulin. But I have no idea whether this is neutralized by

heat. Unripe fruit would be another possible consideration; Indian recipes

call for unripe mango and I think it is always cooked. - D

*********** Mike

This is not something that lends itself to opinions, unless you're

referring to culinary aesthetic preferences! ...

Also, what is the reasoning

behind Swiss chard? The only thing I know about chard is that it's

high in oxalates, but cooking has a minimal impact on oxalates,

apparently only to the extent water-soluble oxalates leach into water

during boiling....

I find asparagus slightly tastier briefly cooked, but I

understand it's eaten raw quite often, and it's certainly tender

enough to eat raw, so what is reasoning behind that one? ...

Is there any reason why eggplant needs to be cooked? I am aware that raw

eggplant is sometimes unpleasant, but I imagine there are plenty of ways to

work around this--marinades, etc. ....

What's the deal with artichokes--why do they need cooking? Is it a

polysaccharide/gas thing? I don't think I've ever even eaten one, so I'm

curious...

I'll add the mighty stinging nettle to the list, because if you don't

cook it, it stings! (Although supposedly there's a work-around with

drying or something...)

************

My book is gone, so anyone with information please chime in.

Swiss chard was arbitrary and culinary. I didn't add spinach, probably

because I eat it raw, but it has oxalates too, so chard can go either way,

like spinach. Asparagus has a toxin of some sort, but it's the same one in

Valencia oranges. A quick steam may be best to neutralize. Eggplant has

some toxin too (I'll look it up when I get my book back, I don't have much

nutritional knowledge :-( But eggplant is grosso yucko raw . . . you can

marinate it for days, dehydrate it or what you will and it is still nasty

(and is it not a fruit?) Artichokes are tough, could be polysaccharide

thing, I don't know? I do know that it would be next to impossible to

consume one raw. It's a big fibrous flower thingy with thornies. Cooked

they are good medicinally for menstrual problems. - D

*********Mike

Also, my understanding is that sea greens should be cooked because of

indigestible polysaccharides, but I don't know if it matters that

much since they're not eaten in large quantities... and that article

I posted a few days ago claimed that a person's intestinal microflora

can adapt to it...

*************

Is this true with nori? I hadn't heard this, but many raw fooders eat raw

nori. - D

*********** Mike

Finally, I encourage people to both de-digitalize the " raw vs cooked "

distinction and contextualize it within the vast multi-dimensional

space of food processing; in other words, heat treatment is

incremental and heterogeneous, and is only one of many ways in which

food is processed... The constant hype about " raw food " is facile

and annoying, and keep in mind that's coming from somone whose diet

is 80-85% raw...

**********

Point well taken. Heat has been a processing option for how many years now?

I would guess in the hundred thousand range at least.

Deanna

In Texas

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/25/04 2:27:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,

heidis@... writes:

> I think they are more filling too.

They might be. But I bet even more significant is that they are much harder

to eat large amounts of, because they are immensely less dense, and therefore

require much more forking, much more chewing, etc.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Mike-

>And I don't hesitate to eat a little raw kale, young or old leaves,

>because I don't think the goitrogen thing is a decisive or absolute

>issue,

You, being blessed with excellent and robust health, don't think a lot of

issues are decisive or absolute or even important. That doesn't mean

they're not profoundly significant for other people.

-

[Guest guest]

>Now, my big book with all this nutritional data of raw vs. cooked is at a

>friend's house presently. But the only thing I have seen is apples (which

>mentioned, btw, and may be able to expand upon better than I) contain

>the mycotoxin patulin. But I have no idea whether this is neutralized by

>heat. Unripe fruit would be another possible consideration; Indian recipes

>call for unripe mango and I think it is always cooked. - D

Sometime back someone posted a bit about how the invention

of fire allowed early people to get enough calories to develop

big brains. A raw carrot simply doesn't digest the same as a

cooked carrot. Some vitamins, like the Vit A in carrots,

are more available cooked too.

So if you want to lose weight, eating raw vegies is better!

I think they are more filling too. But you won't always

get as many vitamins. However, if you eat a fruit/vegie/meat

diet you'll probably get plenty of vitamins and minerals, I think.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

@@@@@@@@@

> This I heard in the grapevine. Now isn't the calcium from collards

more

> accessible when those greens are cooked? How about fermented? - D

@@@@@@@

Sure, for collards and any veggie because cooking breaks down the

fiber. Fermenting probably helps a little too, but I'm not sure.

Some have argued that the acidity of fermented foods is a boon to

calcium absorption, but I don't know how this pans out.

@@@@@@@@@@

> Now, my big book with all this nutritional data of raw vs. cooked

is at a

> friend's house presently. But the only thing I have seen is apples

(which

> mentioned, btw, and may be able to expand upon better than I)

contain

> the mycotoxin patulin. But I have no idea whether this is

neutralized by

> heat. Unripe fruit would be another possible consideration; Indian

recipes

> call for unripe mango and I think it is always cooked. - D

@@@@@@@@@@

Yeah, but tiny amounts of toxins are typically not toxic! Think

about the infamous bogus scare about raw alfalfa sprouts at the hands

of that crackpot Weil... There may be some individuals, ala Chris'

anecdote, who are sensitive to certain things, like that apple thing

or the solanine in nightshades, but those are special exceptions for

individuals.

Yeah, unripe fruit. That's an interesting category; sort of pushing

the envelope of what is considered " food " ... I've used dried unripe

mango quite a bit...

@@@@@@@@@

> Is this true with nori? I hadn't heard this, but many raw fooders

eat raw

> nori. - D

@@@@@@@@

I don't know, but I'm curious too; I've never dabbled in nori/laver

myself. Also, most of the nori/laver out there is processed into

those thin sheets and stuff, so that probably has some bearing. I

suspect for the quantities eaten it doesn't matter. I know hijiki is

typically eaten raw too. And Yum!!! Even though I cook it by and

large, I've snacked on raw dried digitata kelp quite a few times

because I just like the flavor so much. It's probably just a matter

of cooking have an advantage for the tougher varieties.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

Mike-

>Some have argued that the acidity of fermented foods is a boon to

>calcium absorption, but I don't know how this pans out.

The acidity probably helps, but probably only minimally, because calcium

absorption requires a *very* acid environment (IOW a full compliment of

stomach acid) to prevent most or all of the calcium from forming insoluble

salts and passing straight through the digestive tract.

-

[Guest guest]

So if you want to lose weight, eating raw vegies is better!

I think they are more filling too. But you won't always

get as many vitamins. However, if you eat a fruit/vegie/meat

diet you'll probably get plenty of vitamins and minerals, I think.

-- Heidi Jean

*******************

Okay, when I get real buff again, I'll eat more cooked food. But I think I

get plenty of nutrients daily. I make salads with all sorts of goodies in a

huge punch bowl and share it with all my clan for lunch quite often. I like

homemade tahini or blue cheese dressing. We eat meat/fish and eggs daily as

well and the guys get starch too.

I like the crunch of raw plants. I find them very satisfying for hunger,

but not *filling* like cooked starches. Perhaps it is my metabolism...

Deanna

[Guest guest]

well, i can't hold a candle to the glutenator, but i've got to turn this

raw food thread into gluten issues!

did you know that blue cheese has gluten!?!?

-katja

At 05:11 PM 3/25/2004, you wrote:

>Okay, when I get real buff again, I'll eat more cooked food. But I think I

>get plenty of nutrients daily. I make salads with all sorts of goodies in a

>huge punch bowl and share it with all my clan for lunch quite often. I like

>homemade tahini or blue cheese dressing. We eat meat/fish and eggs daily as

>well and the guys get starch too.

[Guest guest]

> did you know that blue cheese has gluten!?!?

> -katja

--->no way! I've never heard of that...can you say more????

Lynn

[Guest guest]

Katja, Say it isn't so!!! Good thing my son doesn't eat it. Are all moldy

cheeses gluten ridden? Roquefort, cambazola, etc.

I'm off to look into this bad bad news.

Deanna

--

well, i can't hold a candle to the glutenator, but i've got to turn this

raw food thread into gluten issues!

did you know that blue cheese has gluten!?!?

-katja

At 05:11 PM 3/25/2004, you wrote:

>Okay, when I get real buff again, I'll eat more cooked food. But I think I

>get plenty of nutrients daily. I make salads with all sorts of goodies in

a

>huge punch bowl and share it with all my clan for lunch quite often. I

like

>homemade tahini or blue cheese dressing. We eat meat/fish and eggs daily

as

>well and the guys get starch too.

[Guest guest]

:

>did you know that blue cheese has gluten!?!?

>-katja

Yeah ... someone contacted a cheese company

and they said that several of their cheeses probably

had gluten. Just when you think it's safe to go

in the water ...

In blue cheese, they use bread of sorts to grow

the original mold culture. A similar thing happens

with beer ... I made GF beer using commercial beer

yeast ... but commercial beer yeast is grown in barley

and I couldn't drink my fine brew.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

At 08:51 AM 3/26/2004, you wrote:

> > did you know that blue cheese has gluten!?!?

> > -katja

>

>--->no way! I've never heard of that...can you say more????

>Lynn

on celiac.com they have a forbidden foods list, and it includes blue

cheese. apparently there's some bread involved, though i don't really know how!

-katja