raw vs cooked plant foods

[Guest guest]

@@@@@ Katja:

my opinion had been that there were some vegetables that were more

important to cook (perhaps kale and cabbage?) and others were less

" necessary " according to NT, and those i'd go with raw (like

cucumbers, or

tomatoes, for example)

@@@@@

That reminds me that I've never found a good answer to the nitrate

thing... I believe cooking only helps to the extent it leaches into

water, and the levels are lower with proper soil conditions... Soil

factors into all this too before we even get to think about pulling

out the pots and pans... (By the way, I've also seen contradictory

reports about the effect of fermentation on nitrates...)

@@@@@@ :

Some vegetables *definitely* need to be

cooked, like kale. Some, like cabbage, seem good either cooked or

heavily

fermented but not raw. And others are excellent raw, like

cucumbers. Tomatoes are probably cool either way.

@@@@@@@@@@

Like cabbage, it's just as well to eat kale raw and fermented...

And I don't hesitate to eat a little raw kale, young or old leaves,

because I don't think the goitrogen thing is a decisive or absolute

issue, and I find raw kale quite delicious, while finding cooked kale

fairly uninspiring by itself... I do cook or ferment most of my

kale, but I just mean to say it's not an absolute thing...

@@@@ Deanna:

Very true. Cabbage is a goiterogen raw.

@@@@

I believe that all brassicas contain goitrogens, not just

cabbage... And I don't know whether moderate goitrogen intake is

balanced by adequate iodine intake, although I've seen this suggested

and the thought makes me feel good about my high-brassica and high-

sea green diet... I haven't investigated this, so it's just

speculation and low-confidence third-hand info...

@@@@ Deanna:

Isn't calcium (among other nutrients) not available from the juice of

vegetables?

@@@@

This couldn't possibly be true! The main argument against juicing is

just that it concentrates certain things, like sugars, antinutrients,

toxins, etc, but also nutrients! I've never heard any argument that

nutrients would be less available, and indeed the very opposite is

the prevailing wisdom! If anything, calcium and other minerals would

be much more available in vegetable juice due to being liberated from

fiber.

@@@ Deanna:

Isn't most fruit best raw? including tomatoes, cucs and avocados?

@@@

I have never heard of any argument that fruit is better cooked,

unless you're specifically aiming for lycopene from tomatoes or

something narrow like that, in which case the choice of processing is

based on specific target nutrients, which would vary according to

dietary and epistemological context. And for the purposes of

reasoning about optimal methods of processing, I agree it is much

more insightful to use botanical categories instead of culinary

ones.

My point of view is that virtually all fruits, including tomatoes,

cucumbers, zucchini, peppers, melons, etc, are better raw, but

there's little harm in cooking them sometimes for culinary reasons,

assuming that the diminished nutrients (typically water-soluble and

heat-labile vitamins) are adequately supplied by other parts of the

meal. If anybody can cite cases of fruit that could be

contraindicated raw, I would love to hear about it. The only

example I can think of offhand where cooking a fruit could be viewed

as advantageous would be carotenoid bioavailability (most famously

lycopene), which is probably not intrinsically related to heat

treatment but rather equivalently realizable through juicing,

thorough mastication, etc, and perhaps the smaller amounts of such

phytonutrient goodies obtained raw are plenty enough for the purpose

they serve?

Moving on to the case of vegetables, this overwhelmingly boils down

to two categories, leaves and roots, about neither of which any

generalizations can be made. It has to be taken on a veggie-by-

veggie basis. In the absence of knowledge of specific antinutrients

affected by cooking, we can only go by the vague tradeoff between

losing a little of certain nutrients and making certain nutrients

more bioavailable. In most cases I doubt there is much of a net

advantage one way or another, and it basically boils down to

aesthetic factors and which nutrients (various vitamin classes vs

minerals vs phytonutrients, etc) you're aiming for, both of which are

heavily context-dependent. As for knowledge of specific undesirable

substances neutralized by cooking, it's worth acknowledging that

we've only scratched the surface of the complexity of plant/human

interactions. My personal approach is to focus on eating small

amounts of a wide variety of wild plants, " herbs " , etc, both raw and

cooked, with little concern about any negatives to eating raw plant

foods when the quantities are small. For the heavy-hitters I eat in

large quantities, like brassicas, dandelion greens, etc, I stick with

fermented or steamed, except for very young tender leaves... or the

inevitable snacking while picking.

@@@@ Deanna:

Those with enzyme inhibitors or otherwise need cooking (IMO):

artichoke

asparagus

brussel sprouts

cabbage

collard greens

eggplant

kales

potatoes

sunchokes (Jerusalem artichokes)

Swiss chard

@@@@@@

This is not something that lends itself to opinions, unless you're

referring to culinary aesthetic preferences! Brussels sprouts,

cabbage, collards, kale are brassicas, so we can ferment or cook them

to deal with goitrogens. Jerusalem artichokes have indigestible

polysaccharides, so cooking is a no-brainer. With potatoes, you've

got protease inhibitors and lectins, both heat-labile, and then

there's the great convenience and efficiency of using cooking to

rupture cellulose and expose starch in potatoes or any other high-

starch food, although this matter could be argued to be extrinsic to

heat treatment, with alternative processing methods like juicing,

milling, grating, blenderizing, fermenting, etc possibly achieving

the same end to some useful extent. Also, what is the reasoning

behind Swiss chard? The only thing I know about chard is that it's

high in oxalates, but cooking has a minimal impact on oxalates,

apparently only to the extent water-soluble oxalates leach into water

during boiling. I eat chard and beet greens raw about as often as

cooked. I find asparagus slightly tastier briefly cooked, but I

understand it's eaten raw quite often, and it's certainly tender

enough to eat raw, so what is reasoning behind that one? That's

another one I go pretty much 50/50 with. Is there any reason why

eggplant needs to be cooked? I am aware that raw eggplant is

sometimes unpleasant, but I imagine there are plenty of ways to work

around this--marinades, etc. I used to use it in soups/curries, but

don't really bother anymore, so I really don't know much about it...

As far as I understand it, solanine is not affected by cooking, so

I'm taking it to be an independent issue, noting that there is no

such thing as a universal concept of " edibility " because of

individual physiological variation.... What's the deal with

artichokes--why do they need cooking? Is it a polysaccharide/gas

thing? I don't think I've ever even eaten one, so I'm curious...

I'll add the mighty stinging nettle to the list, because if you don't

cook it, it stings! (Although supposedly there's a work-around with

drying or something...)

Also, my understanding is that sea greens should be cooked because of

indigestible polysaccharides, but I don't know if it matters that

much since they're not eaten in large quantities... and that article

I posted a few days ago claimed that a person's intestinal microflora

can adapt to it...

Finally, I encourage people to both de-digitalize the " raw vs cooked "

distinction and contextualize it within the vast multi-dimensional

space of food processing; in other words, heat treatment is

incremental and heterogeneous, and is only one of many ways in which

food is processed... The constant hype about " raw food " is facile

and annoying, and keep in mind that's coming from somone whose diet

is 80-85% raw...

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay