juice fasting and elimination diet questions

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/rwgully/action/ediet_howto.htm

----------------------------

April 16, 2004

>2. I'm also concerned that I'm not getting probiotics and getting simple

>sugars during the juice fast and I have candida issues, so it seems like

>this could be problematic. I've been wondering if I should drink Fervita

>Immune Support (which I have) during the juice fast. Fervita is a raw EM

>probiotic brew. Ingredients are:

You could use that ... you could also just make some kefir beer

with some juice and a kefir grain. I find the kefir beer has the

same good probiotic effect as kefir.

>1. After 10 days of water/juice fasting, should I just introduce one new

>food per day?

I don't know about fasting (my meat/vegie diet has never been a " fast " ,

there might be other issues with fasting, like detox etc.). I'd say how

fast to introduce foods is up to you ... sometimes the effects of a food

don't happen until the 2nd day, so it can get confusing. But since our

meat/vegie/fruit diet wasn't all that restrictive anyway, adding the

foods more gradually wasn't really an issue. I usually go by one food

group a week ... one week add dairy, one week add rice etc. And using

rather " pure " sources of the food (like, just milk for dairy). However we

found that some foods just caused such obvious problems that

we quit after the first dose.

>2. I can't decide whether I should start the pepto bismol at this point? I

>would love to consume something a bit healthier than pepto to heal my gut. I

>was thinking of slippery elm and L-glutamine. Does this sound like a

>reasonable alternative to pepto bismol?

I know pepto seems unhealthy, but I don't know of any other

easy source of bismuth. I suppose you could buy some at a chemistry

supply place and find the correct dosage. I got this idea from Dr. Fine's

writings, and he does a lot of microscopic research on gut tissues,

so I have no idea what would work to heal microscopic colitis etc.

besides bismuth.

>Oh, I should mention again, that the reason I'm doing this is because I've

>had chronic bloating for 5 plus months now. Whatever I drink or eat causes

>bloating. I suspect the reason is a combination of food allergies and

>bacterial/yeast overgrowth. Underlying all that I suspect may be mercury

>poisoning. I do plan to get my amalgams out starting in about a month. Til

>then I'm trying to address the bloating. So far, I'm still bloated on the

>water fast. I sure hope all this effort will pay off. It has not been

>pleasant.

Did you try enzymes? Bloating is often a matter of lack of proper

digestion, and the HCL and/or enzymes with each meal seems to help

a lot of people.

-- Heidi Jean

April 16, 2004

I don;t know what most of them would taste like, but you can juice:

asparagus (dilute with 1-2 parts water)

beans

beetroot (but is starchy, small amounts only)

broccoli (nice with some carrot)

capsicum

cauliflower (tho it's not very palatable on it;s own)

cucumber

mushroom

parsnip (starchy tho)

tomato

watercress

my massage therapist is hypoglycemic (so usually has low carb diet)

but has done successful juice fasts. i've emailled her and asked

whether she used starchy veges.

have another read of the elimination diet notes to help get some

ideas on reintroducing. for the elimination aspect of it, you

wouldn't need to do a full 10 days. you might want to combine the

principles of coming of fasts ie light foods first, with Bob's

principles.

IF you clear - ie the bloating & other symptoms go away - i wouldn't

use the pepto till you;'ve tested the foods, as it could mask

reactions. if you DON'T clear, it;s bit trickier. let's cross that

bridge if it happens.

deb

>

> Juice fasting:

>

> 1. I'm doing juice fasting AND elimination at the same time. So,

as Deb

> mentioned to me I should be avoiding juicing foods that I normally

eat. I

> normally eat mixed greens EVERY DAY. This often includes mixed

lettuces,

> arugala, spinach, mustard and other various greens. So most greens

are out

> for me. The problem is that leaves mostly sweet or starchy foods

to juice

> which concerns me in terms of mucking with my blood sugar. Any

suggestions

> for non-starchy veggies I can juice? I don't like celery and

parsley is

> chelator which I guess I should avoid because of my mouth full of

mercury.

> I'm somewhat at a loss as to what to juice.

>

> 2. I'm also concerned that I'm not getting probiotics and getting

simple

> sugars during the juice fast and I have candida issues, so it

seems like

> this could be problematic. I've been wondering if I should drink

Fervita

> Immune Support (which I have) during the juice fast. Fervita is a

raw EM

> probiotic brew. Ingredients are:

>

> Ingredients: High grade blackstrap molasses; elderberry

concentrate;

> elderberries; raspberry concentrate; rose hips powder; eucalyptus

powder;

> echinacea root powder; hawthorne berry powder; a proprietary blend

of rock

> powders; sea salt; bentonite clays; lactic acid bacteria, yeast

and other

> microorganisms and purified tap water.

>

> Any comments?

>

> Elimination diet:

>

> 1. After 10 days of water/juice fasting, should I just introduce

one new

> food per day?

>

> 2. I can't decide whether I should start the pepto bismol at this

point? I

> would love to consume something a bit healthier than pepto to heal

my gut. I

> was thinking of slippery elm and L-glutamine. Does this sound like

a

> reasonable alternative to pepto bismol?

>

> That's all for now, I'm sure I'll have more questions as I go

along. Thanks

> for any suggestions!

>

> Oh, I should mention again, that the reason I'm doing this is

because I've

> had chronic bloating for 5 plus months now. Whatever I drink or

eat causes

> bloating. I suspect the reason is a combination of food allergies

and

> bacterial/yeast overgrowth. Underlying all that I suspect may be

mercury

> poisoning. I do plan to get my amalgams out starting in about a

month. Til

> then I'm trying to address the bloating. So far, I'm still bloated

on the

> water fast. I sure hope all this effort will pay off. It has not

been

> pleasant.

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

April 16, 2004

Remember that in elimination diet one must severly restrict possibly

allergenic foods. Bob Mc Farrin lists the safe foods for most people

on an elemination diet - therefore foods that have an almost

universal potential for lectin reactions such as asparagus, tomato,

beans, mushroom, Braccia family foods (culiflower, cabbage,

broccolli, etc.) should not be taken during the elimination phase.

> >

> > Juice fasting:

> >

> > 1. I'm doing juice fasting AND elimination at the same time. So,

> as Deb

> > mentioned to me I should be avoiding juicing foods that I

normally

> eat. I

> > normally eat mixed greens EVERY DAY. This often includes mixed

> lettuces,

> > arugala, spinach, mustard and other various greens. So most

greens

> are out

> > for me. The problem is that leaves mostly sweet or starchy foods

> to juice

> > which concerns me in terms of mucking with my blood sugar. Any

> suggestions

> > for non-starchy veggies I can juice? I don't like celery and

> parsley is

> > chelator which I guess I should avoid because of my mouth full of

> mercury.

> > I'm somewhat at a loss as to what to juice.

> >

> > 2. I'm also concerned that I'm not getting probiotics and getting

> simple

> > sugars during the juice fast and I have candida issues, so it

> seems like

> > this could be problematic. I've been wondering if I should drink

> Fervita

> > Immune Support (which I have) during the juice fast. Fervita is a

> raw EM

> > probiotic brew. Ingredients are:

> >

> > Ingredients: High grade blackstrap molasses; elderberry

> concentrate;

> > elderberries; raspberry concentrate; rose hips powder; eucalyptus

> powder;

> > echinacea root powder; hawthorne berry powder; a proprietary

blend

> of rock

> > powders; sea salt; bentonite clays; lactic acid bacteria, yeast

> and other

> > microorganisms and purified tap water.

> >

> > Any comments?

> >

> > Elimination diet:

> >

> > 1. After 10 days of water/juice fasting, should I just introduce

> one new

> > food per day?

> >

> > 2. I can't decide whether I should start the pepto bismol at this

> point? I

> > would love to consume something a bit healthier than pepto to

heal

> my gut. I

> > was thinking of slippery elm and L-glutamine. Does this sound

like

> a

> > reasonable alternative to pepto bismol?

> >

> > That's all for now, I'm sure I'll have more questions as I go

> along. Thanks

> > for any suggestions!

> >

> > Oh, I should mention again, that the reason I'm doing this is

> because I've

> > had chronic bloating for 5 plus months now. Whatever I drink or

> eat causes

> > bloating. I suspect the reason is a combination of food allergies

> and

> > bacterial/yeast overgrowth. Underlying all that I suspect may be

> mercury

> > poisoning. I do plan to get my amalgams out starting in about a

> month. Til

> > then I'm trying to address the bloating. So far, I'm still

bloated

> on the

> > water fast. I sure hope all this effort will pay off. It has not

> been

> > pleasant.

> > Suze Fisher

> > Lapdog Design, Inc.

> > Web Design & Development

April 16, 2004

> Re: juice fasting and elimination diet questions

>

>I don;t know what most of them would taste like, but you can juice:

>asparagus (dilute with 1-2 parts water)

>beans

>beetroot (but is starchy, small amounts only)

>broccoli (nice with some carrot)

>capsicum

>cauliflower (tho it's not very palatable on it;s own)

>cucumber

>mushroom

>parsnip (starchy tho)

>tomato

>watercress

>my massage therapist is hypoglycemic (so usually has low carb diet)

>but has done successful juice fasts. i've emailled her and asked

>whether she used starchy veges.

Thanks Deb! Unfortunately, I can't get all of those things at this time of

year in Maine - at least not organic ones that are totally wilted. Also,

unfortunately, I just remembered that there are carrots and ginger in the

kimchi I eat regularly. Are either of these very allergenic? I'm planning on

using them in my week of juicing, but am wondering if I need to eliminate

them? I'm running out of things to juice! ACK. Either I eat them regularly,

or they are too sugary or they have anti-nutrients I should stay away from

(ie; broc has goitrogens and I'm hypothyroid). Sheesh...what is there left

to juice? :-(

>

>have another read of the elimination diet notes to help get some

>ideas on reintroducing. for the elimination aspect of it, you

>wouldn't need to do a full 10 days. you might want to combine the

>principles of coming of fasts ie light foods first, with Bob's

>principles.

>http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/rwgully/action/ediet_howto.htm

Ok, thanks. I made sure I bookmarked it this time!

>

>IF you clear - ie the bloating & other symptoms go away - i wouldn't

>use the pepto till you;'ve tested the foods, as it could mask

>reactions. if you DON'T clear, it;s bit trickier. let's cross that

>bridge if it happens.

>

>deb

I'm confused about the pepto. It's supposed to *heal* the gut, and Heidi's

family (and others?) seem to have had good success with it. ???

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

>

April 16, 2004

> Re: juice fasting and elimination diet questions

>

>>2. I'm also concerned that I'm not getting probiotics and getting simple

>>sugars during the juice fast and I have candida issues, so it seems like

>>this could be problematic. I've been wondering if I should drink Fervita

>>Immune Support (which I have) during the juice fast. Fervita is a raw EM

>>probiotic brew. Ingredients are:

>

>You could use that ... you could also just make some kefir beer

>with some juice and a kefir grain. I find the kefir beer has the

>same good probiotic effect as kefir.

You know, that is a good idea. I could just " kefirize " my juice! However, I

wouldn't want to take a grain out of milk and use it, because of the

possibilities that it might still contain some milk residue. However, I just

got the powdered kefir from WFN and I could use that.

BUT, OTOH, maybe I shouldn't consume kefir since I've been having kefir

quite regularly and am not supposed to have anything I consume regularly. I

wonder if micro-organisms are included in that?

>

>>1. After 10 days of water/juice fasting, should I just introduce one new

>>food per day?

>

>I don't know about fasting (my meat/vegie diet has never been a " fast " ,

>there might be other issues with fasting, like detox etc.). I'd say how

>fast to introduce foods is up to you ... sometimes the effects of a food

>don't happen until the 2nd day, so it can get confusing. But since our

>meat/vegie/fruit diet wasn't all that restrictive anyway, adding the

>foods more gradually wasn't really an issue. I usually go by one food

>group a week ... one week add dairy, one week add rice etc. And using

>rather " pure " sources of the food (like, just milk for dairy). However we

>found that some foods just caused such obvious problems that

>we quit after the first dose.

Hmmm...after veggie/fruit juice fasting, I think the first thing I'll

introduce is meat! I don't know what to start with. I eat a lot of lamb so I

probably shouldn't have that, however I really need some animal fat and

that's the only meat I regularly consume that has much fat to speak of. Oh

brother, this is complicated. It just ocurred to me that if I introduce one

food group per week, and do the same with my supplements, it'll be a year

before I'm back on a varied diet and can take all my supplements again. I'm

going to have to give this some thought, as I'm taking the supps for very

specific reasons. Luckily, most of them are hypo-allergenic (no additives,

fillers or whatnot). So I can probably intro them more quickly than one per

week.

>

>>2. I can't decide whether I should start the pepto bismol at this point? I

>>would love to consume something a bit healthier than pepto to

>heal my gut. I

>>was thinking of slippery elm and L-glutamine. Does this sound like a

>>reasonable alternative to pepto bismol?

>

>I know pepto seems unhealthy, but I don't know of any other

>easy source of bismuth. I suppose you could buy some at a chemistry

>supply place and find the correct dosage. I got this idea from Dr. Fine's

>writings, and he does a lot of microscopic research on gut tissues,

>so I have no idea what would work to heal microscopic colitis etc.

>besides bismuth.

Right, I was just wondering if the glutamine and slippery elm would be

proper substitutes for bismuth. They both heal the gut too, but I don't know

if they do it differently than bismuth.

>

>>Oh, I should mention again, that the reason I'm doing this is because I've

>>had chronic bloating for 5 plus months now. Whatever I drink or eat causes

>>bloating. I suspect the reason is a combination of food allergies and

>>bacterial/yeast overgrowth. Underlying all that I suspect may be mercury

>>poisoning. I do plan to get my amalgams out starting in about a month. Til

>>then I'm trying to address the bloating. So far, I'm still bloated on the

>>water fast. I sure hope all this effort will pay off. It has not been

>>pleasant.

>

>Did you try enzymes? Bloating is often a matter of lack of proper

>digestion, and the HCL and/or enzymes with each meal seems to help

>a lot of people.

I did start using them recently. I didn't always remember to take them

though. I may have to go back on them if this fasting/elimintion diet

doesn't work.

Thanks for the input!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

April 16, 2004

>

>You know, that is a good idea. I could just " kefirize " my juice! However, I

>wouldn't want to take a grain out of milk and use it, because of the

>possibilities that it might still contain some milk residue. However, I just

>got the powdered kefir from WFN and I could use that.

Hmmm ... yeah, there could be some milk left. I use the same grains in

juice for 6 months or so, it would be a negligable amount.

>BUT, OTOH, maybe I shouldn't consume kefir since I've been having kefir

>quite regularly and am not supposed to have anything I consume regularly. I

>wonder if micro-organisms are included in that?

Well, we have pretty much concluded that people can be allergic

to kleb., at any rate, so you could be allergic to other microorganisms.

I kind of doubt the ones in kefir are allergenic though ... they are

so common, if you are allergic to them that is bad news.

-- GJ

April 16, 2004

>I'm confused about the pepto. It's supposed to *heal* the gut, and Heidi's

>family (and others?) seem to have had good success with it. ???

>

>Suze Fisher

The pepto is to treat microscopic colitis, which is (according to Dr. Fine)

the issue in a lot of bloating and IBS problems. It is very difficult

to heal, usually, because the bacteria in the gut just keep irritating it.

The pepto gives it time to heal, and it pretty much solves a lot of

other bacterial-overgrowth issues, which are often caused by

stuff like allergies etc. but do not go away when the offending food

is stopped, necessarily. The pepto gives you a " clean slate " ... no more

bad bacteria.

Then, if the problems *come back* you can often pinpoint the food

that causes them. That's hard to do when the " bad " bacteria are

in control, because food that causes them to grow is not necessarily

food that is bad for you if you had the right bacterial balance. It's a

little like the protocol where they put someone on heavy-duty

antibiotics for 6 months to wipe out the gut bacteria, then introduce

probiotics, only not so severe. (And no, I don't know if it wipes out

the good bacteria or not).

Or at least that is my understanding. The guy who tried it originally

had good results with the concept, whatever the mechanism.

-- Heidi Jean

April 16, 2004

Yes, I know. But the problem Suze has is that she is doing a juice

fast, so won't be having the fish. The range of acceptable veges is

limited anyway - she doesn't like celery, rutabaga is revolting if

not cooked, and I don't imagine the other root veges would be any

good juiced either. That leaves carrot, zucchini and parsnip -

pretty limited for a week long juice fast. Have you got any other

ideas of veges that are not on the list that would be suitable?

> Remember that in elimination diet one must severly restrict

possibly

> allergenic foods. Bob Mc Farrin lists the safe foods for most

people

> on an elemination diet - therefore foods that have an almost

> universal potential for lectin reactions such as asparagus,

tomato,

> beans, mushroom, Braccia family foods (culiflower, cabbage,

> broccolli, etc.) should not be taken during the elimination phase.

April 16, 2004

Yes, you have made it very difficult for yourself by combining a

fast with the elimination :-) In fact, you're real;y trying to

combine 3 things, with the pepto as well.

How important is it to you to fast for 10 days in total? You must be

up to about 4 days by now. If it were me, I'd give up the fasting

and start eating the veges - can you get rutabaga, turnip, parsnip &

zucchini? what about pears?

Seems to me, with the pepto diet, the aim is to heal the gut first

and worry about allegies later. With the elimination diet, it's

round the other way - identify the bad foods, then deal with the

gram negative bacteria afterwards, if needed. So once again, it;s

hard to combine them. If you " clear " you should be able to test

without the pepto, but will only have a window of about 3 weeks. So

start with a few things that you''re pretty sure you're OK on, to

expand your diet. i;d still go with the lamb, you'll know quickly

enough if it's no good for you.

If you are still bloated at the end of 6 days, maybe start taking

the pepto then? Oh, and the other reason you might not clear is

candida, can't remember if you've talked about that as a possibility

or not.

deb

>

> Thanks Deb! Unfortunately, I can't get all of those things at this

time of

> year in Maine - at least not organic ones that are totally wilted.

Also,

> unfortunately, I just remembered that there are carrots and ginger

in the

> kimchi I eat regularly. Are either of these very allergenic? I'm

planning on

> using them in my week of juicing, but am wondering if I need to

eliminate

> them? I'm running out of things to juice! ACK. Either I eat them

regularly,

> or they are too sugary or they have anti-nutrients I should stay

away from

> (ie; broc has goitrogens and I'm hypothyroid). Sheesh...what is

there left

> to juice? :-(

>

> I'm confused about the pepto. It's supposed to *heal* the gut, and

Heidi's

> family (and others?) seem to have had good success with it. ???

>

April 16, 2004

> Re: juice fasting and elimination diet questions

>

>Yes, you have made it very difficult for yourself by combining a

>fast with the elimination :-) In fact, you're real;y trying to

>combine 3 things, with the pepto as well.

Actually, make that *4* things. LOL! Dave from the chapter leader list

suggested that while I'm juice fasting I might as well do a liver cleanse. I

like the idea and will start that tomorrow. But I'll start with a simple one

of just juiced apples and olive oil. I will add garlic in after a couple of

days, then maybe ginger. The full thing should be juiced apples, olive oil,

garlic, ginger and lemon and lime juice.

OK, yes, it's because I'm doing so many things at once that I'm confused on

how to proceed. I think Bob wrote that the elimination diet should be 5-7

days followed by the testing phase. I think I *might* do the juice fast for

2-4 days. I did the water fast for 3. Then I think I might go to the pepto

and start adding things back in.

>

>How important is it to you to fast for 10 days in total? You must be

>up to about 4 days by now. If it were me, I'd give up the fasting

>and start eating the veges - can you get rutabaga, turnip, parsnip &

>zucchini? what about pears?

The fasting is important, but the elimination diet is more important. I

don't know if I can get rutabag, and I don't know if I like any of these

things except zuccini and pears. I think for the short time I'm fasting, I

probably don't need to worry about most anti-nutrients like oxalates and

goitrogens, so I'm open to more veggies now.

>

>Seems to me, with the pepto diet, the aim is to heal the gut first

>and worry about allegies later. With the elimination diet, it's

>round the other way - identify the bad foods, then deal with the

>gram negative bacteria afterwards, if needed. So once again, it;s

>hard to combine them. If you " clear " you should be able to test

>without the pepto, but will only have a window of about 3 weeks. So

>start with a few things that you''re pretty sure you're OK on, to

>expand your diet. i;d still go with the lamb, you'll know quickly

>enough if it's no good for you.

As mentioned above, I'm leaning toward doing the pepto following the juice

fast. After 3 days of *water* fasting I'm still bloated. I think it's time

to deal with healing the gut.

>If you are still bloated at the end of 6 days, maybe start taking

>the pepto then? Oh, and the other reason you might not clear is

>candida, can't remember if you've talked about that as a possibility

>or not.

Yes, I do have candida issues. They used to be daily, but when I started low

carb NTing, they became rare - or at least the *noticable* symptoms

(feminine itch) became rare. I take a ton of probiotics and eat probiotic

foods so it's hard to imagine I have much room for candida *unless* I truly

do have a bad case of mercury poisoning. But I don't itch much at all -

every once in a while I do. But recently my *ears* became itchy, making me

think the candida is targeting a different area now.

Thanks for all your input - I really appreciate it!

Oh, BTW, I had my first glass of juice tonight. Still not being sure exactly

what to juice, I ended up using strawberries, apples, cucumber, and tomato.

It tasted *great*! But then, just about *anything* would taste great after

72 hours of water! LOL. I also had a normal but small bowel movement this

morning, then have had diarrhea three times since. Oh, and starting this

evening I'm taking Dr. Schulze's intestinal formulas #1 and #2. These should

clear my bowels of all the stuff I'm detoxing.

Gosh, why can't I keep it simple???? >:-(

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

April 16, 2004

--- In , " Suze Fisher "

>

> Actually, make that *4* things. LOL! Dave from the chapter leader

list

> suggested that while I'm juice fasting I might as well do a liver

cleanse. I

> like the idea and will start that tomorrow. But I'll start with a

simple one

> of just juiced apples and olive oil. I will add garlic in after a

couple of

> days, then maybe ginger. The full thing should be juiced apples,

olive oil,

> garlic, ginger and lemon and lime juice.

Only 4 things? just stop p**sing about, Suze - why not do a parasite

cleanse as well? LOL. no really, I am just kidding......

> OK, yes, it's because I'm doing so many things at once that I'm

confused on

> how to proceed. I think Bob wrote that the elimination diet should

be 5-7

> days followed by the testing phase. I think I *might* do the juice

fast for

> 2-4 days. I did the water fast for 3. Then I think I might go to

the pepto

> and start adding things back in.

Yes, that sounds more doable than trying to do a whole week on juices

> The fasting is important, but the elimination diet is more

important. I

> don't know if I can get rutabag, and I don't know if I like any of

these

> things except zuccini and pears. I think for the short time I'm

fasting, I

> probably don't need to worry about most anti-nutrients like

oxalates and

> goitrogens, so I'm open to more veggies now.

Like? What's like got to do with it? Doing the e-diet is about pain

and suffering, and eating food that you hate. Get that hair shirt

out. I'm just kidding again... I never ate rutabaga or turnip before

doing the e-diet - they're not too bad, but rutabaga is nasty if

it's not cooked enough. And I have to admit, Ian got to gagging at

the sight of cod and has never eaten it since!!

But I don't itch much at all -

> every once in a while I do. But recently my *ears* became itchy,

making me

> think the candida is targeting a different area now.

Yeah i think it does that. I never get feminine itches, but

sometimes rectal or head itching, usually after slipping off the

wagon and eating some sugar. (that's probably more than anybody

wanted to know.) And I used to get dry patches of skin on my face,

which i think was candida as well

>

> Oh, BTW, I had my first glass of juice tonight. Still not being

sure exactly

> what to juice, I ended up using strawberries, apples, cucumber,

and tomato.

> It tasted *great*! But then, just about *anything* would taste

great after

> 72 hours of water! LOL. I also had a normal but small bowel

movement this

> morning, then have had diarrhea three times since. Oh, and

starting this

> evening I'm taking Dr. Schulze's intestinal formulas #1 and #2.

These should

> clear my bowels of all the stuff I'm detoxing.

I;d be a bit carfeul of strawberries but the rest sound sgood.

>

> Gosh, why can't I keep it simple???? >:-(

Cos that just isn't in your nature???? :-)

April 16, 2004

>>

> I never get feminine itches, but sometimes rectal or head

>itching, usually after slipping off the wagon and eating some

>sugar. (that's probably more than anybody

> wanted to know.)

More than anyone wanted to know? On this list??? Never. TMI is our

meat and drink! %^)

marty

April 17, 2004

Suze, It's probably a bit late now, but here's what my massage

therapist said about her juice fasts:

" The first fast I did in NZ (Eastertime 2 or 3 years

ago) I used high sugar veggies including beets and

carrot. I also used fruit: pear and apple I think.

The last fast I did over xmastime last year i only

used non-starchy veggies: celery, spinach, cucumber,

courgette, brocolli?- only green stuff that tasted

like bitter garden-except the cuke. By the third day I

didn't feel like juices anymore and was just on tea. I

did use some of that clay stuff that Jules gave me and

psyllium husks. I also put a little Spirolina in the

juice (on the second day maybe?) which was a horrible

mistake. I didn't digest it for the rest of the fast

and kept burping that horrible gaggy stuff for the

rest of the fast. I also had a problem with going too

alkaline? It was a terrible heartburn kinda feeling.

Jill Casey recommended lemon juice, but I told her I

was doing no sugar and lemon is very high sugar (did I

get that from you? it was news to her) so she

suggested sea salt. that seemed to ease it a BIT. "

deb

April 17, 2004

> You know, that is a good idea. I could just " kefirize " my juice! However, I

> wouldn't want to take a grain out of milk and use it, because of the

> possibilities that it might still contain some milk residue. However, I just

> got the powdered kefir from WFN and I could use that.

>

> BUT, OTOH, maybe I shouldn't consume kefir since I've been having kefir

> quite regularly and am not supposed to have anything I consume regularly. I

> wonder if micro-organisms are included in that?

>

I bet the kefir culture powder contains powdered milk too.

The culture I had before I got grains had powdered milk as a base.

Bruce

April 17, 2004

>

> Oh, BTW, I had my first glass of juice tonight. Still not being sure exactly

> what to juice, I ended up using strawberries, apples, cucumber, and tomato.

> It tasted *great*! But then, just about *anything* would taste great after

> 72 hours of water! LOL. I also had a normal but small bowel movement this

> morning, then have had diarrhea three times since.

Suze, most of the books I have read dealing with fasting and detoxification

advise having an enema or colonic irrigation every day

during the fast. I would never fast without using bowel irrigation in

conjunction. It really helps with the headaches too. : -)

Bruce

April 17, 2004

I agree with Deb - what you are doing is not an elimiination diet it

is a cleansing diet - scientifically there is a big differance as one

is to clean and lighten congestion in the blood and the organs

(liver, etc.) If one has not done cleansing diets and fasts before

the first few times might be very rough. When the toxins from the

liver and fat get released it might be stressful.

Elimination diet is removing all possible lectins so that they

can 'clear' from the blood and stop the reactive allergenic process.

The imporatant thing in this diet is to keep the foods in the non-

reactive catagory. This is not the same as cleansing although the

elimination diet no doubt does reduce stress on the organs - but

actually there is no particulr need to reduce calorie consumption on

elimination diet. So actually without reducing calories and

empahasising vegetables, fruits, and juices liver cleansing is not

possible.

Both processes are difficult and many can not do them. My first

elimination diet I felt I was being drug through hell. Breaking the

allergic reactions are not easy because although we are harmed by

them at the same time we are addicted to them - breaking this

addiction can be very difficult. Anyone who has tried to stop eating

sugar when addicted to it knows the difficulty in breaking these

negative eating cravings. The negative effects on the elimination

diet only last a few days(4-7)

My opinion is that one should go slowly - eat 'well' for a few weeks

Try to eliminate those items (reverse elemination)that one is sure

one has problems with - one a week - after the major addictions have

been gotten under control. Then one can do a full elimination diet -

this will reset your reactions to foods in general. After all of

these things have setteled down and stabalised then one can start

fasts and cleansing diets.

Going to rapidly and gung-ho can be a prescription for failure - Rome

was not distroyed in a day and it will not be rebuilt in a day.

The important thing is do not over stress yourself in this process or

the mind will set up an aversion response to cleansing and one might

give up - just because it is too difficult.

> >Yes, you have made it very difficult for yourself by combining a

> >fast with the elimination :-) In fact, you're real;y trying to

> >combine 3 things, with the pepto as well.

>

> Actually, make that *4* things. LOL! Dave from the chapter leader

list

> suggested that while I'm juice fasting I might as well do a liver

April 18, 2004

Thanks everyone for your comments and feedback on this subject. And thanks

Del for letting me know what supp your chiro gave you that helped with your

bloating and for the ginger link.

Here's what's happening now. Yesterday was my first full day of juice

fasting and my energy returned immediately. Juice fasting is SO much easier

than water fasting, at least it has been for me. Yesterday morning I *think*

I noticed that my bloating seemed to go down a bit - this was after my first

glass of juice that I checked. I was pretty encouraged by that as I've been

looking at a bloated stomach for almost half a year now. Then in the

afternoon I did a liver flush a la Dr. Schulze. It included apple juice,

olive oil, lemon juice, raw garlic and ginger. Later I had Schulze

intestinal formula #2 and my first dose of pepto bismol. I didn't check the

bloating then. Later in the evening I had a glass of juice with a few more

things than I had in the morning drink - carrots, beets and mango. After

drinking that glass, I checked the bloating and it looked bad again.

Sigh...not sure if it was just because I had a stomach full of juice at the

time or not. This morning it looks a little better. But since I thought I

was seeing progress yesterday morning before the liver flush and new

ingredients in my juice, I decided to eliminate the liver flush. I know my

liver is stressed, but I want to focus on elimination right now. So I will

see how it goes today after eliminating that one variable. I honestly can't

think of any of the ingredients that would be problematic, but I'm playing

it safe anyways.

As for colonics that Bruce mentioned, my BF told me the exact same things

you did about colonics being necessary and also helping to reduce headaches.

I did try to get an enema from the drugstore but they were out. I didn't

have time to order one online so decided to use the Dr. Schulze intestinal

formulas to clean my colon during the fast.

As for symptoms, I had MANY on the water fasting portion, but as can be

expected they lessened when I started the juice fasting. My energy is back

and I feel like I can handle my work load, work out at the gym and lead my

normal life on the juice fast. I was too weak to live my normal life on the

water fast, although I realize I might have gotten my strength back had I

stayed on it longer. I just had a flood of symptoms come to the front and

think my body was working overtime detoxing during that period. Damn, I'm

toxic! :-(

I have a question on the pepto for her Glutenatorness: I bought the maximum

strength bottle which has double the bismuth salycinate as the regular. I

figured I could get more of the desired ingredient with less of the

undesirable ingredients (red dyes and such). But I was thinking maybe I

should take the full dose of the max strenght...to your knowledge, did Dr.

Fine use the reg strength at the recommended dose 3x/day? Do you think

there's any reason NOT to use a higher strength?

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

April 18, 2004

Just one thought there - carrots, beets and mango are all high sugar.

Combining one high carb veg with something non-starchy might give a

better result bloating wise.

actually, re-reading your post - do you mean you had those as well

as the other juices?

anothet thought - did you have a big juice in the evening? i wonder

if smaller juices spaced over the day might work better????

deb

ps just remembered some notes on fasting i had filed away, so here

thay are. remember though that these suggestions are for cleansing

not eliminating, but might give you some ideas

Fasting

During a fast, toxins are excreted with no new ones going in, so the

body can detoxify faster – flushing out toxins, cleansing the liver,

kidneys, colon, blood, and clearing the eyes, tongue and breath.

Chemicals stored in fats can be released. The energy usually used

for digestion can be redirected to other activities like cell growth

and immune function.

Fasts are effective for acute illnesses, colon disorders, allergies

and respiratory problems, but not so effective for chronic

illnesses. They are also good to do periodically to maintain health.

The time period of a fast will vary, depending on what you want to

achieve :

· 3 days – to clear toxins and cleanse the blood

· 5 days – starts healing and rebuilding the immune system

· 10 days – preventative maintenance – fixes problems before

they start, including degenerative diseases

Procedure :

· A water fast detoxifies the body too quickly, so always use

live juices when fasting. These will keep up your intake of

vitamins, minerals and enzymes.

· For 2 days before and after a fast, eat only raw fruit and

vegetables, to make the transition easier

· Drink 8 glasses of distilled or filtered water per day

· Drink pure, fresh juices diluted 1part water to 3 parts

juice (see Juicing below). Exclude orange and tomato juices, or

anything with a sweetener. Good juices are :

o Lemon juice – the juice of one lemon added to 1 cup water

o Apple, beetroot, cabbage, carrot, celery, grape. (Note that

apple is the only fruit that can be combined with vegetable juices)

o A combination good for healing many illnesses is 3 carrots,

3 kale leaves, 2 sticks celery, 2 beetroot, 1 turnip, ½ cabbage, ¼

bunch parsley, ¼ onion, ½ clove garlic

o Green juices, from green leafy vegetables – or you

substitute Nutricology ProGreens or Wakanago KyoGreens

o Aerobic Life Industries' Dessert Delight – a combination of

cranberry, papaya and aloe vera – can be used

· Drink 1-2 cups of warm herb tea a day. Choose from :

o Alfalfa, burdock, chamomile, dandelion, mulk thistle, red

clover, or rosehip to cleanse the liver and bloodstream (NOTE :

don't use chamomile on an ongoing basis as it cause a ragweed

allergy)

o 2 parts echinacea and pau d'arco with 1 part unsweetened

cranberry for cleaning the bladder and colon and improving immune

function. (NOTE : don't use echinacea if you have an autoimmune

disease.)

o Peppermint is good for indigestion, nausea and flatulence an

calms and strengthens nerves

o Slippery elm is good for inflammation of the colon and can

also be used in an enema

o Houston International's Daily Detox tea

· If you find you must eat, you can eat :

o Fresh watermelon (on it's own)

o Homemade applesauce made from fresh, unpeeled apples

· If you are over 65, or have supplements that need to be

taken, you may continue to take vitamin or mineral supplements, but

reduce the dosage. Other supplements you may take :

o Garlic – 2 caps 2 x daily, before during and after the fast

o Spirulina – up to 5 tabs, 3 x daily

o If you are hypoglycaemic, you must use a protein supplement

eg. Spirulina

o A fibre supplement is useful before and after, but NOT

during a fast.

· You may use lemon juice and /or coffee enemas daily to help

reduce the symptoms of detoxification. Dry skin brushing will also

help detoxify.

· Do not chew gum, as it stimulates the digestive juices.

· Continue with your normal routine (including wearing your

dentures to prevent gum shrinkage), but make sure you get plenty of

rest, and only do moderate exercise.

If you are fasting for longer than 3 days, or if you are

hypoglycaemic, diabetic or have a chronic illness, consult a health

care professional before starting.

Later in the evening I had a glass of juice with a few more

> things than I had in the morning drink - carrots, beets and mango.

After

> drinking that glass, I checked the bloating and it looked bad

again.

> Sigh...not sure if it was just because I had a stomach full of

juice at the

> time or not.

April 18, 2004

>So I will

>see how it goes today after eliminating that one variable. I honestly can't

>think of any of the ingredients that would be problematic, but I'm playing

>it safe anyways.

You know, there IS another possibility ... fructose intolerance? A lot of people

don't digest fructose well, and with all the juice ... tho you'd think that

bloating

would go away on a water fast. Hmmm ... seems like MOST types of intolerance

bloating would go away on a water fast. Parasites? I wonder if diatomic earth

would help ...

>I have a question on the pepto for her Glutenatorness: I bought the maximum

>strength bottle which has double the bismuth salycinate as the regular. I

>figured I could get more of the desired ingredient with less of the

>undesirable ingredients (red dyes and such). But I was thinking maybe I

>should take the full dose of the max strenght...to your knowledge, did Dr.

>Fine use the reg strength at the recommended dose 3x/day? Do you think

>there's any reason NOT to use a higher strength?

I don't know the dosage, we just picked 3x a day. I've certainly taken

quite a bit of it in the past, I've never heard any warnings of problems

with it. On the bottle it says to take it every time you have a bowel

movement, which is pretty vague.

-- Glutenatorness

April 19, 2004

> Re: juice fasting and elimination diet questions

>

>Just one thought there - carrots, beets and mango are all high sugar.

>Combining one high carb veg with something non-starchy might give a

>better result bloating wise.

Right, but I couldn't think of any non-starchy veggie that I don't regularly

eat except cucumbers which I did include. I think I forgot to mention the

cukes.

>actually, re-reading your post - do you mean you had those as well

>as the other juices?

yes.

>anothet thought - did you have a big juice in the evening? i wonder

>if smaller juices spaced over the day might work better????

I have a 16 oz. glass about 3x/day. Sometimes it's not all juice but mixed

with a little water. I'm thinking it could be something in the liver flush

that slowed the progress, because I did another liver flush this morning and

it again seems the bloating is a bit worse than yesterday. It's really hard

to tell though. Overall, I've seen progress. Tonight I will eat a little

fruit to break the 6 day fast. Tomorrow, I'll have a little haddock in small

amounts along with some fruit. Then start adding other stuff.

Thanks a lot for the fasting tips!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

April 19, 2004

Overall, I've seen progress. Tonight I will eat a little

fruit to break the 6 day fast. Tomorrow, I'll have a little haddock in small

amounts along with some fruit. Then start adding other stuff.

Thanks a lot for the fasting tips!

Suze Fisher

--------------------------------------------------------

You go girl! Six days is great. Thanks for sharing your fasting adventure

with us. I agree that the tips Deb sent were very helpful, as is hearing

about your experiences.

Deanna :-D

April 19, 2004

> RE: Re: juice fasting and elimination diet questions

>

>>So I will

>>see how it goes today after eliminating that one variable. I

>honestly can't

>>think of any of the ingredients that would be problematic, but I'm playing

>>it safe anyways.

>

>You know, there IS another possibility ... fructose intolerance?

Maybe...I have no idea. But the bloating has gone down a bit since I started

fasting, thankfully.

A

>lot of people

>don't digest fructose well, and with all the juice ... tho you'd

>think that bloating

>would go away on a water fast. Hmmm ... seems like MOST types of

>intolerance

>bloating would go away on a water fast. Parasites? I wonder if

>diatomic earth

>would help ...

I'm quite sure candida is part of it, which is one reason I hesitated to

drink so much fruit juice! And I did have feminine itch a few times after

drinking the juice. But then I've had a HOST of symptoms - they're popping

out of me as if I were Pandora's box just being opened :-(

>

>>I have a question on the pepto for her Glutenatorness: I bought

>the maximum

>>strength bottle which has double the bismuth salycinate as the regular. I

>>figured I could get more of the desired ingredient with less of the

>>undesirable ingredients (red dyes and such). But I was thinking maybe I

>>should take the full dose of the max strenght...to your knowledge, did Dr.

>>Fine use the reg strength at the recommended dose 3x/day? Do you think

>>there's any reason NOT to use a higher strength?

>

>I don't know the dosage, we just picked 3x a day. I've certainly taken

>quite a bit of it in the past, I've never heard any warnings of problems

>with it. On the bottle it says to take it every time you have a bowel

>movement, which is pretty vague.

OK, thanks. I'm doing 3x/day too. I'm just using the max strength and taking

about .75 of the recommended dose, so I'm getting a bit more of the bismuth

than the regular strength.

Thanks again for your help :-)

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

>

April 19, 2004

----- Original Message -----

From: " Suze Fisher "

> to tell though. Overall, I've seen progress. Tonight I will eat a little

> fruit to break the 6 day fast. Tomorrow, I'll have a little haddock in

small

> amounts along with some fruit. Then start adding other stuff.

Suze, if you think your problem may be mercury toxicity, is the haddock a

good idea, especially at this stage? I think I'd stay away from all

fish/seafood at this point.

~ Fern

April 20, 2004

> Re: Re: juice fasting and elimination diet questions

>

>----- Original Message -----

>From: " Suze Fisher "

>

>> to tell though. Overall, I've seen progress. Tonight I will eat a little

>> fruit to break the 6 day fast. Tomorrow, I'll have a little haddock in

>small

>> amounts along with some fruit. Then start adding other stuff.

>

>Suze, if you think your problem may be mercury toxicity, is the haddock a

>good idea, especially at this stage? I think I'd stay away from all

>fish/seafood at this point.

>

>~ Fern

Well, I'm eating white fish because Bob recommended it for the elimination

diet AND haddock is one of the ones the FDA lists as lowest in mercury. I'm

on the fence about the seafood issue. I ate a LOT of seafood before my 6 day

fast because I've had such a craving for it lately. I'd really LIKE to have

it 2-3x/week or more on a regular basis, but am not sure if I should wait

til my amalgams are out. I know some seafood is much more contaminated than

others and I mostly try to eat wild alaskan salmon or haddock or flounder,

all of which are supposed to be low in mercury. But I honestly don't know if

I should avoid it all or not.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics