RE: Ketosis confusion

[Guest guest]

> Yes, i definitely am but it occurred to me i may not be eating enough fat.

> This morning, day three, i woke up tired from sleep deprivation but

> otherwise feeling *really* good and not hungry at all. I think when you

cut

> out grains you are left with a big gap of calories and it feels weird

> filling it with denser foods. One thing i've done that the No-Grain Diet

> says not to is eat raspberries -- a couple of small handfuls a day. Since

> i'm looking at this as an ancient diet, i can't imagine any

self-respecting

> hunter-gatherer would pass up raspberries. Of course they didn't have a

> five-pound bag in the freezer either. I'm probably also eating a little

more

> dairy that i should and will try and cut that down a little. But i'm 1.5

> pounds lighter already -- probably water.

> Elaine

Elaine,

Raspberries? Seeds or natural sweetness, maybe? Wish I could remember what

it is I read recently that is rare and great about raspberries. Haven't read

the No Grain Diet. My impression from reading mercola.com is that Dr.

Mercola is a mixed metabolic type who can eat from the carb type. Don't know

wheather impression is so but could be transferred to the book. You're a

protein type like me and Elainie so your choices from No Grain should

reflect higher protein, fat and protein type carbs which is " all " berries.

If sweetness is the issue, eat them with a fat like I do all carbs to cut

the GI down.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

> Wanita,

> Mercola says he is a strong protein type. Guess that's why his advice

makes

> sense to me <giggle>

>

> Elainie

All the vegetable juicing threw me, I guess.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

I'm confused about ketosis, some say it's fine, others not ok etc..

and I've also read that Inuits and other hunter gatherer tribes are not in a

state of ketosis.

I have been eating one small fruit (a pear or apple) daily in addition to

some berries in order to avoid ketosis ( I don't eat any dairy or strachy

vegetables).

Elainie

[Guest guest]

I do have about 15 pregnancy pounds to lose. So what about ketosis and

nursing?

Elainie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/28/04 6:32:34 PM, jopollack2001@... writes:

>

>

> Dr Atkins says stay out of ketosis while nursing.  Concentrate on

> giving your baby all the nutrition it needs, then focus on your own

> weight loss.

>

>

Okay, however I'm not doing Atkins and I react to grains, beans and it seems

raw goat dairy. I have an autoimmune issue to work on and from my research a

paleo approach is needed .

What do you think?

I ate very little grain/beans in pregnancy.The only things I've cut out of my

diet are yams and dairy.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/28/04 6:45:06 PM, christiekeith@... writes:

>

> OK, I found it:

>

> PregnantAtkids/

>

> This is the description:

>

> " This list is a support group for women who are pregnant, nursing, or trying

> to conceive, and who are practicing a low-carb lifestyle (Atkins, CAD, or

> whatever). "

>

> This should most likely have lots of women on it who can discuss ketosis and

> nursing... it has 375 members.

>

> Good luck!

>

> Christie

>

Thanks!

Elainie

[Guest guest]

nono, ketosis is what you want: it's how the body burns fat.

here's a good explanation:

Ketosis is really a shortening of the term lipolysis/ketosis. Lipolysis

simply means that you're burning your fat stores and using them as the

source of fuel they were meant to be. The by-products of burning fat are

ketones, so ketosis is a secondary process of lipolysis. When your body

releases ketones in your urine, it is chemical proof that you.re consuming

your own stored fat. And the more ketones you release, the more fat you

have dissolved.

If you are restricting the amount of carbohydrates you eat, your body turns

to fat as its alternative source of energy. In effect, lipolysis/ketosis

has replaced the alternative of burning glucose for energy. Both are

perfectly normal processes.

People (and even some ill-informed doctors) often confuse ketosis, which is

a perfectly normal metabolic process, with ketoacidosis, which is a

life-threatening condition. The latter is the consequence of

insulin-deficient subjects having out-of-control blood sugar levels, a

condition that can occur as well in alcoholics and people in a state of

extreme starvation. Ketosis and ketoacidosis may sound vaguely alike, but

the two conditions are virtually polar opposites and can always be

distinguished from each other by the fact that the diabetic has been

consuming excessive carbohydrates and has high blood sugar, in sharp

contrast to the fortunate person who is doing Atkins.

and --

The body uses two fuels for energy: fat and glucose (blood sugar).

Carbohydrates break down in the body as glucose. So when you cut back on

carbs, you effectively take away most of one of the body's fuels and the

body turns to fat burning, the metabolic process called lipolysis and the

secondary process of ketosis. So long as you have extra body fat, ketosis

is safe and natural.and it.s the secret weapon of weight loss. A person in

ketosis is getting energy from burning ketones, which are carbon fragments

that are created by the burning of the body's fat stores.

There is nothing harmful, abnormal or dangerous about ketosis. Some of the

confusion comes from the word ketoacidosis, which is completely different

from ketosis. Ketoacidosis is a potentially dangerous condition seen in

Type I diabetics.people who cannot produce insulin, when their blood sugar

levels are out of control.alcoholics and people in a severe state of

starvation. Research shows that ketosis does not cause adverse effects to

the heart, kidneys, liver or blood cell functions. Nor is bone health

compromised.

-katja

At 03:49 PM 4/28/2004, you wrote:

>I'm confused about ketosis, some say it's fine, others not ok etc..

>and I've also read that Inuits and other hunter gatherer tribes are not in a

>state of ketosis.

>I have been eating one small fruit (a pear or apple) daily in addition to

>some berries in order to avoid ketosis ( I don't eat any dairy or strachy

>vegetables).

>

>Elainie

[Guest guest]

>> I'm confused about ketosis, some say it's fine, others not ok etc..

and I've also read that Inuits and other hunter gatherer tribes are not in a

state of ketosis.

I have been eating one small fruit (a pear or apple) daily in addition to

some berries in order to avoid ketosis ( I don't eat any dairy or strachy

vegetables). <<

If you want to lose body fat, you can't avoid ketosis. Ketosis is totally normal

and every person on this list is in and out of ketosis all the time.

Ketosis means the body is burning your stored body fat. Do you have any excess

body fat? Do you want to get rid of it? Then ketosis is how you do that.

For some reason I can't figure out, a bunch of people seem to think that ketosis

means the burning of MUSCLE tissue. That is definitely not a good thing. But

it's not ketosis.

Christie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/28/04 9:06:31 PM, itchyink@... writes:

>

> I personally have not been able to stick to low-carb diets because i can't

> tolerate ketosis. I get all the symptoms he lists above and a relative of

> mine on Atkins ended up in ER with kidney problems. The Body for Life guy

> said his muscles started shrinking and he lost a lot of energy in ketosis.

>

> I'm on day two of the no-grain diet. When i get hungry (which is frequently)

> I feel very funky, almost like ketosis. Don't know if i am or i'm just

> having grain withdrawals.

> Elaine

>

Elaine,

LOL, I'm on day 5( or is it 6?) of paleo eating. You know, it's funny I have

zero cravings like I used to when I was grain free before but eating starchy

vegetables (yams).

I feel great but then again I am eating lots of veggetables and some fruits

(plus nuts etc..)

I snack on homemade venison jerky as well as nuts, fruit, raw veggies.

Are you snacking ?

Elainie

[Guest guest]

> I do have about 15 pregnancy pounds to lose. So what about ketosis

and

> nursing?

>

> Elainie

>

Dr Atkins says stay out of ketosis while nursing. Concentrate on

giving your baby all the nutrition it needs, then focus on your own

weight loss.

Jo

[Guest guest]

>> I do have about 15 pregnancy pounds to lose. So what about ketosis and

nursing? <<

I'm afraid I don't know. I think there is a list for Atkins moms, but I can't

find it on groups.

Christie

[Guest guest]

>> I do have about 15 pregnancy pounds to lose. So what about ketosis and

nursing? <<

OK, I found it:

PregnantAtkids/

This is the description:

" This list is a support group for women who are pregnant, nursing, or trying to

conceive, and who are practicing a low-carb lifestyle (Atkins, CAD, or

whatever). "

This should most likely have lots of women on it who can discuss ketosis and

nursing... it has 375 members.

Good luck!

Christie

[Guest guest]

Here is what mercola says about ketosis in no-grain diet book: " ...can lead

to muscle breakdown, nausea, dehydration, headaches, light-headedness,

irritability, bad breath and kidney problems. In pregnancy, ketosis can lead

to fetal abnormality or death...On the no-grain diet you'll be eating

abundant complex carbs (veggies) which counteract ketosis by providing a

source of carb fuel so your body won't need to burn fat exclusively for

energy. It's a much safer and healthier way to lose weight. "

I personally have not been able to stick to low-carb diets because i can't

tolerate ketosis. I get all the symptoms he lists above and a relative of

mine on Atkins ended up in ER with kidney problems. The Body for Life guy

said his muscles started shrinking and he lost a lot of energy in ketosis.

I'm on day two of the no-grain diet. When i get hungry (which is frequently)

I feel very funky, almost like ketosis. Don't know if i am or i'm just

having grain withdrawals.

Elaine

[Guest guest]

I honestly don't know what to say to things like this. Since we eat tons of

veggies on Atkins, and no grains, I think a lot of this is just plain

misinformation.

Even eating low carb you still eat protein, and protein can be used like

glucose. You don't need to eat carbs to get glucose. However, the situation of

pregnancy and lactation aside, I think that people who really suffer these

symptoms are simply eating the wrong things, or having severe withdrawal from

processed grains and sugar that will go away if they just stick with it. Nobody

NEEDS flour and sugar, and that's actually all you cut out permanently on

Atkins. But I digress.... obviously you can do Atkins without being in ketosis,

so this really doesn't matter.

As to signs of ketosis, I guess what Mercola is talking about is an ongoing

state of ketosis as opposed to just burning stored body fat? I don't really

think that matters or makes any difference, personally. But I'll repeat what I

said before: Ketosis is the body burning its stored fat. If you want to lose the

stored fat, you can do it via ketosis or you can have it sucked out with

liposuction. Those are your two choices. This obsession with ketosis as some

sort of deadly state is IMO an urban legend. No one, no matter how few carbs we

eat, is in ketosis every moment of their life.

As for symptoms, I did have a headache for two or three days when cutting out

carbs. Whenever you lose weight you will tend toward having bad breath, it's one

of the most common things complained about in anyone losing weight. I have NEVER

had any of the other symptoms described there from eating low carb, and have

built gobs of muscle ... just LOOK at this bicep! <G>.... and, of course, lost

very nearly a hundred pounds in less than a year, all while feeling 20 years

younger.

You also say you feel hungry... I never feel hungry, or I should say, when I

feel hungry, I eat. My appetite has become much less as I've lost weight (which

make sense), but if I feel hunger I do eat something healthy, such as raw cheese

or some olives.

I actually have no idea if I'm constantly in a state of ketosis or not. I've

never in the whole 11+ months I've been eating this way checked my urine for

ketones! As long as I feel great and am losing fat and have tons of energy and

am building muscle, I couldn't care less, personally.

I really think anyone doing Atkins combined with NT... in other words, using

real, whole, healthy foods instead of LC junk food or low carb SAD .... is going

to be extremely healthy, and get plenty of those veggies Mercola seems to think

we don't eat on Atkins/low carb, and lose excess body fat. You say you only have

15 pounds to lose, I can't even imagine what that would be like so I'm not sure

what to suggest. If I had that little to lose I wouldn't bother, personally. I'd

just lift weights, eat healthily, nurse my baby, and live life. JMO.

Christie

Re: Ketosis confusion

Here is what mercola says about ketosis in no-grain diet book: " ...can lead

to muscle breakdown, nausea, dehydration, headaches, light-headedness,

irritability, bad breath and kidney problems. In pregnancy, ketosis can lead

to fetal abnormality or death...On the no-grain diet you'll be eating

abundant complex carbs (veggies) which counteract ketosis by providing a

source of carb fuel so your body won't need to burn fat exclusively for

energy. It's a much safer and healthier way to lose weight. "

I personally have not been able to stick to low-carb diets because i can't

tolerate ketosis. I get all the symptoms he lists above and a relative of

mine on Atkins ended up in ER with kidney problems. The Body for Life guy

said his muscles started shrinking and he lost a lot of energy in ketosis.

I'm on day two of the no-grain diet. When i get hungry (which is frequently)

I feel very funky, almost like ketosis. Don't know if i am or i'm just

having grain withdrawals.

Elaine

[Guest guest]

snacking? i seem to be eating all day! i am always so hungry these last two

days. i am also not eating starchy veggies or much in the way of fruit as

the diet calls for, although some dairy is ok (sounds like the dairy is the

only thing that distinguishes this diet from the paleo). he says you get all

your carbs through veggies and a few low-sugar fruits. i think i am simply

not eating enough veggies (need to get to the market). I'm hoping it's just

sugar/grain withdrawals and an adjustment period. I did have a very powerful

weights workout today though, although i got tired sooner than usual.

Elaine

> LOL, I'm on day 5( or is it 6?) of paleo eating. You know, it's funny I have

> zero cravings like I used to when I was grain free before but eating starchy

> vegetables (yams).

> I feel great but then again I am eating lots of veggetables and some fruits

> (plus nuts etc..)

> I snack on homemade venison jerky as well as nuts, fruit, raw veggies.

> Are you snacking ?

[Guest guest]

Christie, i think a very low-carb diet may not be good for very athletic

people, who don't need to lose a lot of weight to start with most likely. I

also just remembered reading in a running magazine that competitive runners

were losing performance on low-carb diets. I wonder if the fact that i'm

breastfeeding (a lot) has something to do with my extreme hunger. It's only

day two so i'm hoping i will adjust. It is rather tiring to eat so often. I

am starving every two hours, but then the no-grain diet says to eat every

two hours the first three days to stabilize your blood sugar/insulin. I hope

in time i won't be hungry so often and so drastically.

Elaine

> I honestly don't know what to say to things like this. Since we eat tons of

> veggies on Atkins, and no grains, I think a lot of this is just plain

> misinformation.

[Guest guest]

> Okay, however I'm not doing Atkins

But the advice of a doctor is not to go into ketosis while nursing.

and I react to grains, beans and it seems

> raw goat dairy. I have an autoimmune issue to work on and from my

research a

> paleo approach is needed .

> What do you think?

> I ate very little grain/beans in pregnancy.The only things I've cut

out of my

> diet are yams and dairy.

Why yams? I am grain free and dairy free, but I find root veg a good

source of carbs which I don't seem to react to (at least not in the

small quantities I eat). Fruit is a good source of carbs, but I

bloat when I eat fruit (except for a few strawberries, which isn't

enough to keep you out of ketosis). You might find the tropical

fruits are good - bananas, pineapple etc are higher carb, but for me

they cause less bloating (are they allowed on a paleo diet?). Also

nuts and seeds are allowed (soaked of course!) and these can increase

your carb levels. I guess chocolate isn't allowed on a paleo diet :-)

Jo

[Guest guest]

> Re: Ketosis confusion

>

>

>Christie, i think a very low-carb diet may not be good for very athletic

>people, who don't need to lose a lot of weight to start with most likely. I

>also just remembered reading in a running magazine that competitive runners

>were losing performance on low-carb diets.

I have to wonder about the quality and composition of the diet these runners

are eating though. Are they doing SAD low carb, or WAP/NT low carb? I'm

guessing the former and I think it would make a difference. Are they perhaps

doing high PUFA and supermarket meat, for example? It would be important to

know exactly what they are eating other than the fact that it's low carb

before any conclusions can be drawn about why they are losing performance.

Aren't the " meat 'n milk " Masai famous for their marathon runners?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Thanks Christie,

I also think flour, grains, sugars etc.. are not conducive to optimal health

and can't imagine why nursing moms are shunned from eating low carb. My baby

is obviously not suffering any ill effects

growth or development wise and has a wonderful disposition.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/04 1:18:09 AM, itchyink@... writes:

> snacking? i seem to be eating all day! i am always so hungry these last two

> days. i am also not eating starchy veggies or much in the way of fruit as

> the diet calls for, although some dairy is ok (sounds like the dairy is the

> only thing that distinguishes this diet from the paleo). he says you get all

> your carbs through veggies and a few low-sugar fruits. i think i am simply

> not eating enough veggies (need to get to the market). I'm hoping it's just

> sugar/grain withdrawals and an adjustment period. I did have a very powerful

> weights workout today though, although i got tired sooner than usual.

> Elaine

>

Elaine,

One thing that has shifted for me is appetite. I simply don't have as amuch

an appetite as before. I suspect the starchy yams were wreaking blood sugar

havoc and causing cravings for more quantity of food. Stick with it and your

appetite will probably be reduced.

I noticed that the first few days I cut the goat dairy out and starchy

veggies I was tired. I was also not eating fruit but added berries and a

pear/apple

a day and that seemed to help.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/04 1:24:21 AM, itchyink@... writes:

> Christie, i think a very low-carb diet may not be good for very athletic

> people, who don't need to lose a lot of weight to start with most likely. I

> also just remembered reading in a running magazine that competitive runners

> were losing performance on low-carb diets. I wonder if the fact that i'm

> breastfeeding (a lot) has something to do with my extreme hunger. It's only

> day two so i'm hoping i will adjust. It is rather tiring to eat so often. I

> am starving every two hours, but then the no-grain diet says to eat every

> two hours the first three days to stabilize your blood sugar/insulin. I hope

> in time i won't be hungry so often and so drastically.

> Elaine

>

Elaine,

Are you eating protein at every meal and snack?

Elainie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/04 5:09:47 AM, jopollack2001@... writes:

>

> Why yams?  I am grain free and dairy free, but I find root veg a good

> source of carbs which I don't seem to react to (at least not in the

> small quantities I eat).  Fruit is a good source of carbs, but I

> bloat when I eat fruit (except for a few strawberries, which isn't

> enough to keep you out of ketosis).  You might find the tropical

> fruits are good - bananas, pineapple etc are higher carb, but for me

> they cause less bloating (are they allowed on a paleo diet?).  Also

> nuts and seeds are allowed (soaked of course!) and these can increase

> your carb levels.  I guess chocolate isn't allowed on a paleo diet :-)

>

> Jo

>

The Japanese white yams and the orange ones I was eating made my tummy feel

bloated and triggered cravings for things like Katja's coconut candies.

I don't do well with high sugar tropical fruits except in tiny amounts. I do

eat soaked and dehydrated nuts/seeds for snacks.

The only things I did cut out were the starchy veggies and goat dairy. I was

eating little in the way of fruit before.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/04 7:51:16 AM, s.fisher22@... writes:

>

> I have to wonder about the quality and composition of the diet these runners

> are eating though. Are they doing SAD low carb, or WAP/NT low carb? I'm

> guessing the former and I think it would make a difference. Are they perhaps

> doing high PUFA and supermarket meat, for example? It would be important to

> know exactly what they are eating other than the fact that it's low carb

> before any conclusions can be drawn about why they are losing performance.

>

> Aren't the " meat 'n milk " Masai famous for their marathon runners?

>

I have to wonder that too, in fact with every study done we must conclude

that quality products were not used.

Elainie

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/04 12:08:13 PM, heidis@... writes:

>

> I don't know if ketosis is harmful or not, it doesn't seem to

> be judging from all the people on Atkins. Many grains, on the other

> hand, *are* harmful, probably a lot more so for a lot of people

> than ketosis is, and most lowcarbers avoid grains which is good

> (unless you use those lowcarb un-foods they sell now!). The only

> diet that works in the long run though, is one you LIKE and makes

> you feel satisfied and happy ... otherwise your brain will

> sabatoge you!

>

> -- Heidi Jean

>

LOL, I agree. Well eating no grain makes me feel good and my brain feel

clear and I'm happy!

Elainie

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/04 12:51:54 PM, heidis@... writes:

>

> Also coconut oil ... it IS allowed on the Paleo diet, I would

> think, but the MCT in it is really good for curbing hunger

> pangs. MCT goes straight to the liver. Also there is a lot

> of MCT in breast milk ... I don't know if EATING it will

> help with breast feeding, but it can't hurt.

>

>

Coconut oil is our primary fat in our house so I get loads of it. It is very

good for nursing moms IMO.

Elainie