RE: Ketosis confusion

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/04 12:53:18 PM, heidis@... writes:

>

> Now the RATE at which those get used vs. the rate they are being

> stored, determines if you are fat or lean. And that has to do with

> metabolism, hormones etc. ... eating a lot of starch and sugar, and

> food allergies, makes you produce hormones that force fat storage,

> and eating more protein and MCT tend to make a person burn more

> fat and glucose. The diet you describe is pretty much the Paleo

> diet (cutting out mainly grains and sugar, tho I suspect you are

> also cutting out beans and potatoes if you are really eating low-carb)

> which really does work for a lot of people on multiple levels. But

> I don't think it works because of ketosis ... those Paleo folks

> were probably never " in ketosis " because they were adapted to

> that diet.

>

> -- Heidi Jean

>

I wasn't eating much in the way of beans before since I react to those too

(potatoes are a disaster fpr me anyways) so yeah it is essentially quite low

carb. I've read varying POV on ketosis , hence my confusion.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/04 12:55:07 PM, heidis@... writes:

>

> I've heard this in weight-lifting magazines too. When you do " fast "

> exercise,

> your muscles tend to burn glucose, and if they can't get it, they

> don't perform as well. That's one reason for taking MCT before a workout ...

> it " spares " the glycogen stores. Since hunter-gatherers seem to be

> able to produce glucose from protein easily (as do carnivores) they

> wouldn't have that problem ... probably the runners wouldn't either

> if they adapted to that diet. As for the Masai ... doesn't milk have

> a good bit of carb in it? If it is fermented milk, it has lactic acid, which

> can be converted to glucose too. And probably it has MCT in it too.

>

So, I wonder how long it takes a person to adapt to a hunter gatherer type

diet?

Elainie

>

>

[Guest guest]

>I'm confused about ketosis, some say it's fine, others not ok etc..

>and I've also read that Inuits and other hunter gatherer tribes are not in a

>state of ketosis.

>I have been eating one small fruit (a pear or apple) daily in addition to

>some berries in order to avoid ketosis ( I don't eat any dairy or strachy

>vegetables).

>

>Elainie

Here is how I understand it. When your cells burn food to create

energy, they can use 3 methods:

1. Fat+glycogen: Some fat is burned plus a little bit of glucose.

Both are needed for this reaction. This is said to be the " usual "

form of energy use for the body.

2. Glycogen only: ONLY glucose is burned. This is used when there

isn't enough oxygen for reaction #1. Also, your brain uses

mainly glucose, tho it can run off ketones too. You use this during,

say, wind sprints. But people who are out of shape use this more

than #1 -- the more in shape you are, the more fat you burn while resting.

3. Fat only: ONLY fat is burned. This happens when you are starving,

and have no glycogen stores. This reaction is incomplete, so ketones

are formed in the blood. The ketones can then keep the brain happy, and

the excess are excreted. Hence the name " ketosis " .

The Inuit and others who never get much starch in their diet have

the ability to break proteins down into glucose, so they don't go

into #3 unless they are REALLY starving. I suspect that modern

humans, if they avoid starch/sugar long enough, also regain that

ability.

I don't know if ketosis is harmful or not, it doesn't seem to

be judging from all the people on Atkins. Many grains, on the other

hand, *are* harmful, probably a lot more so for a lot of people

than ketosis is, and most lowcarbers avoid grains which is good

(unless you use those lowcarb un-foods they sell now!). The only

diet that works in the long run though, is one you LIKE and makes

you feel satisfied and happy ... otherwise your brain will

sabatoge you!

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/04 2:26:57 PM, itchyink@... writes:

>

> Yes, i definitely am but it occurred to me i may not be eating enough fat.

> This morning, day three, i woke up tired from sleep deprivation but

> otherwise feeling *really* good and not hungry at all. I think when you cut

> out grains you are left with a big gap of calories and it feels weird

> filling it with denser foods. One thing i've done that the No-Grain Diet

> says not to is eat raspberries -- a couple of small handfuls a day. Since

> i'm looking at this as an ancient diet, i can't imagine any self-respecting

> hunter-gatherer would pass up raspberries. Of course they didn't have a

> five-pound bag in the freezer either. I'm probably also eating a little more

> dairy that i should and will try and cut that down a little. But i'm 1.5

> pounds lighter already -- probably water.

> Elaine

>

Yeah,

It's quite common to lose 5 pounds of water weight right off the bat. I too

look at it as an ancient diet so now that organic berries have appered in the

market (ok, so I know they're from Ca. and not local)

I can't pass those up either. But 5 of us eat two small boxes between all of

us.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/04 3:31:09 PM, wanitawa@... writes:

>

> Elaine,

>

> Raspberries? Seeds or natural sweetness, maybe? Wish I could remember what

> it is I read recently that is rare and great about raspberries. Haven't read

> the No Grain Diet. My impression from reading mercola.com is that Dr.

> Mercola is a mixed metabolic type who can eat from the carb type. Don't know

> wheather impression is so but could be transferred to the book. You're a

> protein type like me and Elainie so your choices from No Grain should

> reflect higher protein, fat and protein type carbs which is " all " berries.

> If sweetness is the issue, eat them with a fat like I do all carbs to cut

> the GI down.

>

> Wanita

>

Wanita,

Mercola says he is a strong protein type. Guess that's why his advice makes

sense to me <giggle>

Elainie

[Guest guest]

>As to signs of ketosis, I guess what Mercola is talking about is an ongoing

state of ketosis as opposed to just burning stored body fat? I don't really

think that matters or makes any difference, personally. But I'll repeat what I

said before: Ketosis is the body burning its stored fat. If you want to lose the

stored fat, you can do it via ketosis or you can have it sucked out with

liposuction. Those are your two choices. This obsession with ketosis as some

sort of deadly state is IMO an urban legend. No one, no matter how few carbs we

eat, is in ketosis every moment of their life.

This really isn't what most of the physiology folks say, though it is said

a lot in the Atkins groups. Fully burned fat doesn't release ketones in

any great amount, so you CAN burn fat and not be in ketosis. SOME

ketones might get produced, and your body doesn't mind having

some ketones around, but it's not *required*. Everyone is in

a state of laying down fat and burning fat, all day, every day. Fat leaks

out of fat cells constantly, and floats around in your blood, and

cells use it for energy if they need it, along with the glucose that

is also floating around in your blood.

Now the RATE at which those get used vs. the rate they are being

stored, determines if you are fat or lean. And that has to do with

metabolism, hormones etc. ... eating a lot of starch and sugar, and

food allergies, makes you produce hormones that force fat storage,

and eating more protein and MCT tend to make a person burn more

fat and glucose. The diet you describe is pretty much the Paleo

diet (cutting out mainly grains and sugar, tho I suspect you are

also cutting out beans and potatoes if you are really eating low-carb)

which really does work for a lot of people on multiple levels. But

I don't think it works because of ketosis ... those Paleo folks

were probably never " in ketosis " because they were adapted to

that diet.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>?). Also

>nuts and seeds are allowed (soaked of course!) and these can increase

>your carb levels. I guess chocolate isn't allowed on a paleo diet :-)

>

>Jo

Also coconut oil ... it IS allowed on the Paleo diet, I would

think, but the MCT in it is really good for curbing hunger

pangs. MCT goes straight to the liver. Also there is a lot

of MCT in breast milk ... I don't know if EATING it will

help with breast feeding, but it can't hurt.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Are they perhaps

>doing high PUFA and supermarket meat, for example? It would be important to

>know exactly what they are eating other than the fact that it's low carb

>before any conclusions can be drawn about why they are losing performance.

Suze:

I've heard this in weight-lifting magazines too. When you do " fast " exercise,

your muscles tend to burn glucose, and if they can't get it, they

don't perform as well. That's one reason for taking MCT before a workout ...

it " spares " the glycogen stores. Since hunter-gatherers seem to be

able to produce glucose from protein easily (as do carnivores) they

wouldn't have that problem ... probably the runners wouldn't either

if they adapted to that diet. As for the Masai ... doesn't milk have

a good bit of carb in it? If it is fermented milk, it has lactic acid, which

can be converted to glucose too. And probably it has MCT in it too.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> 1. Fat+glycogen: Some fat is burned plus a little bit of glucose.

> Both are needed for this reaction. This is said to be the " usual "

> form of energy use for the body.

>

> 2. Glycogen only: ONLY glucose is burned. This is used when there

> isn't enough oxygen for reaction #1. Also, your brain uses

> mainly glucose, tho it can run off ketones too. You use this during,

> say, wind sprints. But people who are out of shape use this more

> than #1 -- the more in shape you are, the more fat you burn while

resting. -- Heidi Jean

Heidi,

I think this is true for a time, but eventually the metabolism

adjusts to the daily exercise and does not burn as much as before, so

the individual hits a plateau. The overload principle comes into

play here. Unless you increase the weights for strength training,

increase the cardio time and or intensity and periodically change up

your routine and mode of exercise, you will not continually see

fitness gains.

When I taught fitness for 20 years, weight would creep on and the

body would get bored with things unless I continued educating the

body with crosstraining, etc. I think that is one reason why some

folks can have good fitness levels yet still remain overweight.

Variety is key. I have just begun to back off from my strength

routine and added more power yoga (very strenuous) and running.

Later I'll do racquetball and rowing and get back to strength. I try

to swim once a week too :-) But those stubborn pounds are finally

moving off.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

> Elaine,

> Are you eating protein at every meal and snack?

>

Yes, i definitely am but it occurred to me i may not be eating enough fat.

This morning, day three, i woke up tired from sleep deprivation but

otherwise feeling *really* good and not hungry at all. I think when you cut

out grains you are left with a big gap of calories and it feels weird

filling it with denser foods. One thing i've done that the No-Grain Diet

says not to is eat raspberries -- a couple of small handfuls a day. Since

i'm looking at this as an ancient diet, i can't imagine any self-respecting

hunter-gatherer would pass up raspberries. Of course they didn't have a

five-pound bag in the freezer either. I'm probably also eating a little more

dairy that i should and will try and cut that down a little. But i'm 1.5

pounds lighter already -- probably water.

Elaine

[Guest guest]

>Yeah,

>It's quite common to lose 5 pounds of water weight right off the bat. I too

>look at it as an ancient diet so now that organic berries have appered in the

>market (ok, so I know they're from Ca. and not local)

>I can't pass those up either. But 5 of us eat two small boxes between all of

>us.

>

>Elainie

We have a lot of truly wild blackberries on our property (not just

the Himalayans, which were bred, but the original ones that the

Indians ate), and huckleberries. They can both be quite sweet, as

are the wild blueberries. Granted they have a very short season, but

the Indians dried them and used them in pemmican. There may be

some reason not to eat tons of them, but I haven't found it!

The non-organic ones might have a high pesticide load though,

I don't know. They are really easy to grow.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

I'm very athletic and I eat a low carb diet. However, I make sure to

get my carbs at certain times. Usually, right after a workout when my

body is most ready to use them. Its all a matter of refilling the

glycogen stores and other tricks of the trade. I personally feel that

training my body to use fat for fuel is the best thing I can do, because

if running a long race or exercising for a long time, I need to be sure

my body is going to last and if it burns fat, then it's gonna last. I

can't eat in the middle of the race. runners world is a nice magazine,

but it is a SAD diet for sure. Read a few other articles and you'll

find they still recommend a big pasta dinner before a race, etc. I

think every single person is different and you can't go based on anyone

else's recommendations. You have to tailor your diet for your own needs

if low carb makes you slow or tired, change it up!

Re: Ketosis confusion

Christie, i think a very low-carb diet may not be good for very athletic

people, who don't need to lose a lot of weight to start with most

likely. I

also just remembered reading in a running magazine that competitive

runners

were losing performance on low-carb diets. I wonder if the fact that i'm

breastfeeding (a lot) has something to do with my extreme hunger. It's

only

day two so i'm hoping i will adjust. It is rather tiring to eat so

often. I

am starving every two hours, but then the no-grain diet says to eat

every

two hours the first three days to stabilize your blood sugar/insulin. I

hope

in time i won't be hungry so often and so drastically.

Elaine

> I honestly don't know what to say to things like this. Since we eat

tons of

> veggies on Atkins, and no grains, I think a lot of this is just plain

> misinformation.

[Guest guest]

>I think this is true for a time, but eventually the metabolism

>adjusts to the daily exercise and does not burn as much as before, so

>the individual hits a plateau. The overload principle comes into

>play here. Unless you increase the weights for strength training,

>increase the cardio time and or intensity and periodically change up

>your routine and mode of exercise, you will not continually see

>fitness gains.

Deanna:

Yeah, I'd agree. Tho I am sooo far from fit that I don't think

I have to worry about a plateau for awhile!

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>> Raspberries? Seeds or natural sweetness, maybe? Wish I could remember what

>> it is I read recently that is rare and great about raspberries. Haven't read

>> the No Grain Diet. My impression from reading mercola.com is that Dr.

>> Mercola is a mixed metabolic type who can eat from the carb type. Don't know

>> wheather impression is so but could be transferred to the book. You're a

>> protein type like me and Elainie so your choices from No Grain should

>> reflect higher protein, fat and protein type carbs which is " all " berries.

>> If sweetness is the issue, eat them with a fat like I do all carbs to cut

>> the GI down.

They are good with whipped raw cream, mildly sweetened with stevia! I don't

know why he recommends against raspberries (except for the maintenance

stage) but says a little bit of apple or citrus is ok. It is all about

cutting out sugars to balance insulin. I think the raspberry is my one

favorite food and azurestandard has the best -- really sweet and dark. I

remember going for hikes in Switz. and stopping at raspberry bushes for long

snacks.

Elaine

[Guest guest]

> RE: Ketosis confusion

>

>

>

>>Are they perhaps

>>doing high PUFA and supermarket meat, for example? It would be

>important to

>>know exactly what they are eating other than the fact that it's low carb

>>before any conclusions can be drawn about why they are losing performance.

>

>Suze:

>

>I've heard this in weight-lifting magazines too. When you do

> " fast " exercise,

>your muscles tend to burn glucose, and if they can't get it, they

>don't perform as well. That's one reason for taking MCT before a

>workout ...

>it " spares " the glycogen stores. Since hunter-gatherers seem to be

>able to produce glucose from protein easily (as do carnivores) they

>wouldn't have that problem ... probably the runners wouldn't either

>if they adapted to that diet. As for the Masai ... doesn't milk have

>a good bit of carb in it? If it is fermented milk, it has lactic

>acid, which

>can be converted to glucose too. And probably it has MCT in it too.

>

>-- Heidi Jean

LOL! I thought somebody might bring that up. I think it depends on the

butterfat content. I have no idea of the butterfat content of the cows the

Masai raise. However, someone on the raw dairy board posted a while ago

about a village she visited in the mountains of Peru, or somewhere in that

neighborhood, where she had the most heavenly milk from the local cattle.

She said it was *14%* butterfat! Now, IIRC, I think Sally wrote somewhere

that even Jersey milk at 5% butterfat has most of it's calories from fat.

I'd imagine that there's not too many carbs in 14% butterfat milk. I have no

idea if that high butterfat content is typical of heirloom breeds in

general, or perhaps just characteristic of that breed in Peru. But makes me

wonder....

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>I'd imagine that there's not too many carbs in 14% butterfat milk. I have no

>idea if that high butterfat content is typical of heirloom breeds in

>general, or perhaps just characteristic of that breed in Peru. But makes me

>wonder....

But the carbs are in the watery part of the milk ... percent of

fat would have nothing to do with that. Anyway, I tend to think

a lot of it is adaptation. If any inbred group of people lives off

ANYTHING long enough, they will adapt to it (as long as it has

decent vitamin/protein content).

Also consistency ... 7th day Adventists tend to be healthier

for lots of reasons, but one thing they've found helps greatily

is *going to bed* at the same time each night. Those tribal

cultures pretty much do the same thing and eat the same things

for years and years ... unlike us ...

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> RE: Ketosis confusion

>

>

>

>>I'd imagine that there's not too many carbs in 14% butterfat

>milk. I have no

>>idea if that high butterfat content is typical of heirloom breeds in

>>general, or perhaps just characteristic of that breed in Peru.

>But makes me

>>wonder....

>

>But the carbs are in the watery part of the milk ... percent of

>fat would have nothing to do with that.

Yes it does - the higher the percent of fat in an 8 oz. glass of milk (for

example) the less the carb and protein content (water fraction). IOW, the

fat fraction displaces the water fraction. So, if they had 14% butterfat

milk, as opposed to 5% butterfat typical Jersey milk, then they'd have 9%

more fat by volume than water, and then multiply that times how many fat

calories as opposed to carb calories, which is what...9 for fat and 4 for

carbs, or something like that.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>Yes it does - the higher the percent of fat in an 8 oz. glass of milk (for

>example) the less the carb and protein content (water fraction). IOW, the

>fat fraction displaces the water fraction. So, if they had 14% butterfat

>milk, as opposed to 5% butterfat typical Jersey milk, then they'd have 9%

>more fat by volume than water, and then multiply that times how many fat

>calories as opposed to carb calories, which is what...9 for fat and 4 for

>carbs, or something like that.

Well, yeah, there would be less liquid volume. But the amount of

stuff in the liquid is variable between milks, unlike the fats which

are pretty much the same density for all fats (1T fat = 120 calories

more or less, for all fats, but 1T liquid can hold anything from zero

carb to alot of dissolved sugar). I was thinking the difference

in dissolved stuff in the liquid would be a lot more signficant ...

probably even between cows.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/1/04 8:32:35 AM, wanitawa@... writes:

>

> All the vegetable juicing threw me, I guess.

>

> Wanita

>

I don't know how he does it (all that vegetable juicing) LOL.

Elainie

>

>

[Guest guest]

I personally can't be bothered with juicing anymore. I'm sure he has someone

doing it for him!

Elaine

> All the vegetable juicing threw me, I guess.

[Guest guest]

>I don't know how he does it (all that vegetable juicing) LOL.

>Elainie

Hi folks, just wandered onto this list. For me, organization is the key to

juicing or raw soups, especially when I am doing them for breakfast on a work

day. The night before I wash the veggies and have them all in one place in the

'fridge (or in a bowl on the counter if it is cool). If I am juicing I have the

juicer (Green Star---love it) next to the sink with the garbage disposal, if

making soup I have the food processor or VitaMix out and ready to go. In the AM

I whack the veggies into pieces, juice them so that the pulp goes into the

garbage disposal (I live in an apartment, otherwise I'd compost the stuff for a

garden) scrub the juicer parts in the same sink, throw them in the drying rack,

and sit down to drink my juice. In a pinch, or if MDW is juicing later, I'll

run some water through the juicer and clean it when I get home. Often add some

raw eggs or have some meat cooking while making the juice...or heating up some

leftovers. Same thing with raw soups in the food processor (rinse, then into the

dishwasher) or the VitaMix (just rinse---super fast). I use organics so I

generally don't peel anything. Takes a bit longer than my old bagel breakfast,

but I feel a lot better. Anyway, that's my method.

[Guest guest]

hey elaine -

this may be too late (catching up) but the withdrawals can be ugly, ya

know. my dh used to have carb dreams...for me the headaches lasted about a

week, but for him longer. just keep reminding yourself that sugars and

carbs are a drug/toxin for the body, and that will give you some context.

you should feel fine otherwise though - just cranky from withdrawal. (this

is not one of those " detox " hoaxes! )

-katja

At 01:06 AM 4/29/2004, you wrote:

>snacking? i seem to be eating all day! i am always so hungry these last two

>days. i am also not eating starchy veggies or much in the way of fruit as

>the diet calls for, although some dairy is ok (sounds like the dairy is the

>only thing that distinguishes this diet from the paleo). he says you get all

>your carbs through veggies and a few low-sugar fruits. i think i am simply

>not eating enough veggies (need to get to the market). I'm hoping it's just

>sugar/grain withdrawals and an adjustment period. I did have a very powerful

>weights workout today though, although i got tired sooner than usual.

>Elaine

[Guest guest]

that's reassuring. I read something about ketosis starving the brain of

oxygen so i was concerned about that, but if you all are functioning well

after an initial withdrawal period, i won't get too worried.

elaine

> hey elaine -

> this may be too late (catching up) but the withdrawals can be ugly, ya

> know. my dh used to have carb dreams...for me the headaches lasted about a

> week, but for him longer. just keep reminding yourself that sugars and

> carbs are a drug/toxin for the body, and that will give you some context.

> you should feel fine otherwise though - just cranky from withdrawal. (this

> is not one of those " detox " hoaxes! )

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Elaine " <itchyink@s...>

wrote:

> that's reassuring. I read something about ketosis starving the

brain of

> oxygen so i was concerned about that, but if you all are

functioning well

> after an initial withdrawal period, i won't get too worried.

> elaine

Interesting. According to some researchers, beta-ketoglutarate

appears to have a *protective* effect against excitotoxicity!

Chris