Re: Kefir and lactose intolerance (was lactose vs. casein intolerance)

[Guest guest]

My husband is highly lactose intolerant and feels ill from even a little bit

of cheese. He loves to eat it though and takes his milk pills with his

food. I made him kefili and was hoping he would be ok, but it made him feel

pretty sick. Maybe I didn't let it sit out long enough to get rid of all

the lactose though. It did sit out for two days and then in the fridge for

a few days, but I thought I read on Dom's website that you need to let it

sit out longer to get rid of all the lactose. Does anyone know how long?

Helen

> From: Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

> Reply-

> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:40:25 -0700

>

> Subject: Re: lactose vs. casein intolerance

>

>

>

>> if you're casein intolerant, you can't have any cow dairy in any form

>> except ghee (not cheese, not kefir, not milk, etc etc). if you're lactose

>> intolerant, you only can't have milk and icecream, but you likely *can*

>> tolerate cheese, kefir, and possibly yogurt...

>>

>> is that right?

>>

>> -katja

>

> Right. Actually they did a study once with lactose intolerant folks (who don't

> produce the enzyme " lactase " which digests lactose). In that, they found

> most of them could actually drink a glass of milk with no symptoms ... that

> is, SOME lactose was ok, but not a lot of it. Also if you are lactose

> intolerant

> you can take some lactase with the meal and probably be ok (Lactaid). Lactose

> intolerance is a digestive issue ... casein " intolerant " is more of an

> allergic-style

> reaction where the immune system reacts too strongly to casein.

>

> Really, the words we use for this stuff aren't very good, they need to

> invent words that are more specific.

>

> -- Heidi Jean

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 09:18:56 -0700

Lampinen <lampinen@...> wrote:

> My husband is highly lactose intolerant and feels ill from even a little bit

> of cheese. He loves to eat it though and takes his milk pills with his

> food. I made him kefili and was hoping he would be ok, but it made him feel

> pretty sick. Maybe I didn't let it sit out long enough to get rid of all

> the lactose though. It did sit out for two days and then in the fridge for

> a few days, but I thought I read on Dom's website that you need to let it

> sit out longer to get rid of all the lactose. Does anyone know how long?

>

> Helen

Hi Helen,

Its difficult to culture kefir long enough to get rid of all the lactose

while still having a product that is palatable in terms of taste. It is

best to go with yogurt for this purpose.

You might also consider using goat milk instead of cow milk, make sure

the animal is fed minimum grain, and inquire if your supplier knows

anything about the fertility of the soil the animals graze/forage on.

The *New* Ten Commandments

http://tinyurl.com/245sr

" They told just the same,

That just because a tyrant has the might

By force of arms to murder men downright

And burn down house and home and leave all flat

They call the man a captain, just for that.

But since an outlaw with his little band

Cannot bring half such mischief on the land

Or be the cause of so much harm and grief,

He only earns the title of a thief. "

--Geoffrey Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale

[Guest guest]

>My husband is highly lactose intolerant and feels ill from even a little bit

>of cheese. He loves to eat it though and takes his milk pills with his

>food. I made him kefili and was hoping he would be ok, but it made him feel

>pretty sick. Maybe I didn't let it sit out long enough to get rid of all

>the lactose though. It did sit out for two days and then in the fridge for

>a few days, but I thought I read on Dom's website that you need to let it

>sit out longer to get rid of all the lactose. Does anyone know how long?

>

>Helen

Are you sure he isn't casein intolerant? Casein doesn't go away, really, tho

hydrolyzed casein is ok with some folks.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> >My husband is highly lactose intolerant and feels ill from even a little bit

> >of cheese. He loves to eat it though and takes his milk pills with his

> >food. I made him kefili and was hoping he would be ok, but it made him feel

> >pretty sick. Maybe I didn't let it sit out long enough to get rid of all

> >the lactose though. It did sit out for two days and then in the fridge for

> >a few days, but I thought I read on Dom's website that you need to let it

> >sit out longer to get rid of all the lactose. Does anyone know how long?

> >

> >Helen

>

> Are you sure he isn't casein intolerant? Casein doesn't go away, really, tho

> hydrolyzed casein is ok with some folks.

>

> -- Heidi Jean

A persons first aquantiance with Kefir can be upsetting to the stomach.

I think kefir is something more wild and raw than most people are used to. : -)

48 hours is considered to be good to reduce lactose.

Try a few teaspoons at first and increase it to determine tolerance.

Peace, Bruce

[Guest guest]

You mean, yogurt doesn't have any lactose in it? Can one make kefir from

yogurt?

Helen

> From: slethnobotanist@...

> Reply-

> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:26:05 -0700

>

> Subject: Re: Kefir and lactose intolerance (was lactose vs. casein

> intolerance)

>

>

> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 09:18:56 -0700

> Lampinen <lampinen@...> wrote:

>

>> My husband is highly lactose intolerant and feels ill from even a little bit

>> of cheese. He loves to eat it though and takes his milk pills with his

>> food. I made him kefili and was hoping he would be ok, but it made him feel

>> pretty sick. Maybe I didn't let it sit out long enough to get rid of all

>> the lactose though. It did sit out for two days and then in the fridge for

>> a few days, but I thought I read on Dom's website that you need to let it

>> sit out longer to get rid of all the lactose. Does anyone know how long?

>>

>> Helen

>

> Hi Helen,

>

> Its difficult to culture kefir long enough to get rid of all the lactose

> while still having a product that is palatable in terms of taste. It is

> best to go with yogurt for this purpose.

>

> You might also consider using goat milk instead of cow milk, make sure

> the animal is fed minimum grain, and inquire if your supplier knows

> anything about the fertility of the soil the animals graze/forage on.

>

>

> The *New* Ten Commandments

> http://tinyurl.com/245sr

>

> " They told just the same,

> That just because a tyrant has the might

> By force of arms to murder men downright

> And burn down house and home and leave all flat

> They call the man a captain, just for that.

> But since an outlaw with his little band

> Cannot bring half such mischief on the land

> Or be the cause of so much harm and grief,

> He only earns the title of a thief. "

> --Geoffrey Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

He believes he is lactose intolerant. When he drinks lactaid milk which is

supposed to be 100% lactose free, he doesn't get sick.

Helen

> From: Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

> Reply-

> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 09:57:04 -0700

>

> Subject: Re: Kefir and lactose intolerance (was lactose vs. casein

> intolerance)

>

>

>> My husband is highly lactose intolerant and feels ill from even a little bit

>> of cheese. He loves to eat it though and takes his milk pills with his

>> food. I made him kefili and was hoping he would be ok, but it made him feel

>> pretty sick. Maybe I didn't let it sit out long enough to get rid of all

>> the lactose though. It did sit out for two days and then in the fridge for

>> a few days, but I thought I read on Dom's website that you need to let it

>> sit out longer to get rid of all the lactose. Does anyone know how long?

>>

>> Helen

>

> Are you sure he isn't casein intolerant? Casein doesn't go away, really, tho

> hydrolyzed casein is ok with some folks.

>

> -- Heidi Jean

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

He said it was interesting that he didn't actually get the final symptom he

usually gets when ingesting milk products, which is diarrhea. Maybe the

lactase enzymes finally broke down the rest of the lactose in his gut.

Helen

> From: Bruce Stordock <stordock@...>

> Reply-

> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:00:13 -0600

>

> Subject: Re: Kefir and lactose intolerance (was lactose vs. casein

> intolerance)

>

>>> My husband is highly lactose intolerant and feels ill from even a little bit

>>> of cheese. He loves to eat it though and takes his milk pills with his

>>> food. I made him kefili and was hoping he would be ok, but it made him feel

>>> pretty sick. Maybe I didn't let it sit out long enough to get rid of all

>>> the lactose though. It did sit out for two days and then in the fridge for

>>> a few days, but I thought I read on Dom's website that you need to let it

>>> sit out longer to get rid of all the lactose. Does anyone know how long?

>>>

>>> Helen

>>

>> Are you sure he isn't casein intolerant? Casein doesn't go away, really, tho

>> hydrolyzed casein is ok with some folks.

>>

>> -- Heidi Jean

>

> A persons first aquantiance with Kefir can be upsetting to the stomach.

> I think kefir is something more wild and raw than most people are used to. :

> -)

> 48 hours is considered to be good to reduce lactose.

> Try a few teaspoons at first and increase it to determine tolerance.

>

> Peace, Bruce

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>He believes he is lactose intolerant. When he drinks lactaid milk which is

>supposed to be 100% lactose free, he doesn't get sick.

>

>Helen

That's a good test! Maybe he should take some lactaid with the kefir

and see if that works.

I agree that kefir sometimes takes some getting used to ... with or

without lactose. Some people kefirize it for several days to make

it lower lactose (like the long-fermented yogurts). But there are

studies that show that folks taking probiotics can sometimes

get over lactose intolerance, as the probiotic bacteria produce

the lactose-digesting enzyme. So it may be worth getting used

to the kefir, taking just a tiny bit at first. Probiotics can take

awhile to adapt to, all of them!

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Very interesting about getting over the lactose intolerance. I almost don't

believe he can be totally cured though because he started getting it when he

was 8 years old. He would have terrible attacks before the finally figured

out what the problem was.

What kind of probiotics besides kefir would work? What about Primal

Defense? What are Homeostatic Soil Organisms anyway and are these things in

kefir? Why do we need Primal Defense when we have kefir? Where did Jorden

get his Homeostatic Soil Organisis to cure himself before he developed

Primal Defense?

Helen

> From: Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

> Reply-

> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 08:55:21 -0700

>

> Subject: Re: Kefir and lactose intolerance (was lactose vs. casein

> intolerance)

>

>

>> He believes he is lactose intolerant. When he drinks lactaid milk which is

>> supposed to be 100% lactose free, he doesn't get sick.

>>

>> Helen

>

> That's a good test! Maybe he should take some lactaid with the kefir

> and see if that works.

>

> I agree that kefir sometimes takes some getting used to ... with or

> without lactose. Some people kefirize it for several days to make

> it lower lactose (like the long-fermented yogurts). But there are

> studies that show that folks taking probiotics can sometimes

> get over lactose intolerance, as the probiotic bacteria produce

> the lactose-digesting enzyme. So it may be worth getting used

> to the kefir, taking just a tiny bit at first. Probiotics can take

> awhile to adapt to, all of them!

>

> -- Heidi Jean

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>Very interesting about getting over the lactose intolerance. I almost don't

>believe he can be totally cured though because he started getting it when he

>was 8 years old. He would have terrible attacks before the finally figured

>out what the problem was.

Well, lactose intolerance is basically just a lack of lactase ... he'll probably

never produce his own lactase, but some bacteria might do it for him.

No human produces the enzymes to digest oxalic acid, it seems ... most

humans have bacteria that do it for us! Cows can't digest cellulose

either, but their bacteria do.

>What kind of probiotics besides kefir would work? What about Primal

>Defense? What are Homeostatic Soil Organisms anyway and are these things in

>kefir? Why do we need Primal Defense when we have kefir? Where did Jorden

> get his Homeostatic Soil Organisis to cure himself before he developed

>Primal Defense?

I don't know which probiotics work the best. Probably some that

grow in milk though -- yogurt or kefir. The article I read

seemed to be mainly about yogurt. Yogurt bacteria don't

survive long in the gut though, so he'd have to eat it a lot.

I have no idea about PD ... never used it. Some people here have

though.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> Re: Kefir and lactose intolerance (was lactose vs. casein

>intolerance)

>

>

>

>>Very interesting about getting over the lactose intolerance. I

>almost don't

>>believe he can be totally cured though because he started getting

>it when he

>>was 8 years old. He would have terrible attacks before the

>finally figured

>>out what the problem was.

Do you have access to *raw* milk? Raw milk contains lactase enzymes, so raw

kefir would probably be your best bet in terms of being the most digestible.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi,

The homeostatic soil organisms were sent to Jordan Rubin by his

father, who got them somewhere, while Jordan was in southern

California trying the Bible diet. At first he resisted trying them.

He had already tried 30 other probiotics. He finally decided to see

what they could do for him, after reading the imformaton that came

with the bag of " black dirt " as he called it. He had a die off

reaction after first taking the HSO's, but eventually his energy and

elimination habits, improved a lot.

There is no reference, that I could find in the book, about where his

dad found the HSO's. You could probably write to Rubin and ask him at

his web site.

Sheila

--- In , Lampinen <lampinen@s...>

wrote:

> Very interesting about getting over the lactose intolerance. I

almost don't

> believe he can be totally cured though because he started getting

it when he

> was 8 years old. He would have terrible attacks before the finally

figured

> out what the problem was.

>

> What kind of probiotics besides kefir would work? What about Primal

> Defense? What are Homeostatic Soil Organisms anyway and are these

things in

> kefir? Why do we need Primal Defense when we have kefir? Where

did Jorden

> get his Homeostatic Soil Organisis to cure himself before he

developed

> Primal Defense?

>

> Helen

>

> > From: Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@t...>

> > Reply-

> > Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 08:55:21 -0700

> >

> > Subject: Re: Kefir and lactose intolerance (was lactose vs.

casein

> > intolerance)

> >

> >

> >> He believes he is lactose intolerant. When he drinks lactaid

milk which is

> >> supposed to be 100% lactose free, he doesn't get sick.

> >>

> >> Helen

> >

> > That's a good test! Maybe he should take some lactaid with the

kefir

> > and see if that works.

> >

> > I agree that kefir sometimes takes some getting used to ... with

or

> > without lactose. Some people kefirize it for several days to make

> > it lower lactose (like the long-fermented yogurts). But there are

> > studies that show that folks taking probiotics can sometimes

> > get over lactose intolerance, as the probiotic bacteria produce

> > the lactose-digesting enzyme. So it may be worth getting used

> > to the kefir, taking just a tiny bit at first. Probiotics can take

> > awhile to adapt to, all of them!

> >

> > -- Heidi Jean

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

This is a fascinating discussion, wish I knew how far back it was--I

remember our ND telling us that folks are never allergic to sugars,

only to proteins, meaning it was the casein in milk that most folks

had trouble with.

If anyone would care to catch me up to speed on that part of the

discussion that would be great.

We have been doing an interesting experiment here using kefir and

kefiili. I have been dairy free for a long time, as it always

seemed to provoke asthma attacks, general mucus condition, lowered

immunity, etc. But several weeks ago we received both kefir and

kefiili granules, and have been using lighty pasteurized non-

homogenized whole milk to culture both. I have been eating kefir

granules, eating kefiili directly, while also eating sauerkraut.

Personally, I prefer kefiili to the kefir--it's got a smooth, almost

sweet, rich taste that I love--the kefir does have an immense *tang*

of sour that I do find it hard to be excited about, and sweetening

it to taste doesn't seem like such a smart idea. I also love the

texture of the kefiili--although my husband refers to it as gack

made out of milk. Never mind though, he eats it, my daughter eats

it, we all love it.

Anyway, I don't seem to have a negative reaction to the kefiili in

particular! And because I'm eating that it seems easier for me to

digest the kefir (which for some reason I was having an allergic

response to).

Additionally, my daughter who is extremely sensitive to dairy has

also been eating the kefiili with no negative reaction!

I don't know if we are on the road to being cured of dairy

intolerance, but it sure would be nice. Dairy does have something

satisfying about it, it's very filling, and small quantities go a

long way. All the same, at this stage I am being careful, not

consuming the kefiili daily.

Cheers, Leann

>

> >Very interesting about getting over the lactose intolerance. I

almost don't

> >believe he can be totally cured though because he started getting

it when he

> >was 8 years old. He would have terrible attacks before the

finally figured

> >out what the problem was.

>

> Well, lactose intolerance is basically just a lack of lactase ...

he'll probably

> never produce his own lactase, but some bacteria might do it for

him.

> No human produces the enzymes to digest oxalic acid, it seems ...

most

> humans have bacteria that do it for us! Cows can't digest cellulose

> either, but their bacteria do.

>

> >What kind of probiotics besides kefir would work? What about

Primal

> >Defense? What are Homeostatic Soil Organisms anyway and are

these things in

> >kefir? Why do we need Primal Defense when we have kefir? Where

did Jorden

> > get his Homeostatic Soil Organisis to cure himself before

he developed

> >Primal Defense?

>

> I don't know which probiotics work the best. Probably some that

> grow in milk though -- yogurt or kefir. The article I read

> seemed to be mainly about yogurt. Yogurt bacteria don't

> survive long in the gut though, so he'd have to eat it a lot.

> I have no idea about PD ... never used it. Some people here have

> though.

>

> -- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>This is a fascinating discussion, wish I knew how far back it was--I

>remember our ND telling us that folks are never allergic to sugars,

>only to proteins, meaning it was the casein in milk that most folks

>had trouble with.

>

>If anyone would care to catch me up to speed on that part of the

>discussion that would be great.

Well, the current thought is that " allergies " happen when the

body mis-identifies some item as being a virus or bacteria. The

body recognizes viruses and bacteria by the shape of proteins

on the outside of the cell (actually this includes fungi too).

Now, if a food protein happens to have the same shape as a certain

virus, the body thinks it is being invaded big time and mounts

a defense.

However, lately I've been hearing something a little more broad ...

the IgA in the gut actually protects agains certain *foods* ... some

foods are somewhat damaging, and the body tries to defuse them, so

to speak. However, this seems to be a different school of thought

than the above.

With gliadin, there are two schools of thought:

1. The gliadin " looks like " a virus, or a fungi (candida), so the

body attacks it.

2. The gliadin attacks the villi in the upper intestine, so the

immune system rightly thinks it is damaging.

I suspect a similar line of thinking goes for casein. In the case of

both casein and gliadin, they *should* be digested somewhat in the

stomach, but it appears that often they are not. Both are " sticky "

and stick to the villi in the upper intestine, which isn't a good

thing, as it interferes with the job the villi are supposed to do

(absorb nutrients from food, signal satiety).

With casein there is also the homogenization argument: with whole

milk, the casein is encased in fat, so it doesn't " glom " as much.

(I think when bread is eaten with olive oil and wine, a similar thing

happens). But there isn't a lot of definitive research, mostly

speculation.

Anyway, with sugars, the main problem is that they need to be

broken down, and some people lack the proper enzymes. If the sugar

isn't broken down, it isn't absorbed, (by the villi, remember them?),

and it then feeds the local bacteria, which therefore multiply more

than otherwise. This causes gas and potentially other distress, because

some bacteria may produce substances that irritate the gut. But, it isn't

an immune system reaction, it's just bacterial.

However, just to make life more complicated, some people seem to be

allergic to the *bacteria*. Lets not go there ...

BTW ... glad to hear you like the kefiili! We do ...

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Lactose Intolerance is NOT an allergy, so he may be right about that.

The milk sugar is undigested and bad bacteria live of it and that

causes the sypmtoms, diarrhea, bloating, gas.

CU Anja

> This is a fascinating discussion, wish I knew how far back it was--I

> remember our ND telling us that folks are never allergic to sugars,

> only to proteins, meaning it was the casein in milk that most folks

> had trouble with.

> Cheers, Leann

[Guest guest]

Helen,

lactose is what kefir lives of, so you can't put your grains in

jogurt, it would starve them. If he doesn't like the taste of kefir

(sounds like it ), you could mix the finished kefir with jogurt. If

the jogurt or the kefir still contain lactose, you could let them sit

together for a bit, so more lactose gets eaten.

Make smoothies. I think bananas work best.

Try goats milk or raw milk and find out whether that makes a

difference for him.

CU Anja

> You mean, yogurt doesn't have any lactose in it? Can one make kefir

from yogurt?

> Helen

[Guest guest]

Helen-

>You mean, yogurt doesn't have any lactose in it? Can one make kefir from

>yogurt?

Yoghurt that has been properly incubated for 24 hours has well under 1% of

its original lactose remaining and causes problems for virtually no

lactose-intolerant people, but you can't just walk into a store and buy

24-hour yoghurt. Virtually all commercially available yoghurts have been

incubated for the minimum possible amount of time -- 4 to 6 hours,

generally -- and they still have way too much lactose for a

lactose-intolerant person to handle. Your only real option is to make it

yourself.

As to making kefir from yoghurt, I suppose it would be an interesting

experiment, but no, I don't think it's likely to be practical or feasible.

-

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

Thanks for the post. I learned a lot.

I have seen many posting talking of IgA and have wondered what the heck it was.

I finally understand what the IgA is.

Sheryl

Sheryl Illustrations

http://dovedesignsrus.com

[Guest guest]

Leann-

>This is a fascinating discussion, wish I knew how far back it was--I

>remember our ND telling us that folks are never allergic to sugars,

>only to proteins, meaning it was the casein in milk that most folks

>had trouble with.

Technically, you can only be allergic to proteins. However, non-protein

substances can cause similar physiological reactions via pathways that

aren't presently understood, so while saying someone isn't allergic to,

say, cigarette smoke, is technically true, it's not always an especially

useful distinction to make.

-