Re: Water Filtration Systems (long)

May 22, 2004

This is a post I just got permission to copy to here. It's from

another list I'm on.

It's an interesting read on this topic but long

Dev Rana wrote it and did the research.

Lynn

Hi. To get independent ratings on water filtration units you can

contact

NSF Listing at 800-673-6275. They are also on the web at

www.nsf.org/DWTU.

There is, beyond a couple of mistakes that I was able to recognize, a

reasonably good book to get started with called, " Don't Drink the

Water "

by Lono Kahuna Kupua A'O. It goes through all of the different kind

of

treatment units. Another resouce is at www.thedoctorwithin.com,

click on

" chapters " and read the one on water.

FLUORIDE

With regard to fluoride, this is a difficult issue. Be sceptical of

any

claims about removal. Since I have a background in physics, I went to

the eng-tips forum, passed myself off as an engineer, and asked some

water processing engineers how to get fluoride out of the water. (You

can look up the exchanges on the issue at eng-tips.com.) The problem

is

that 1) fluoride boils at the same temperature as water, so

distilation

will not work (the fluoride will just come over with the water) and

2)

elemental fluoride is the same size as water, so something like

reverse

osmosis is of limited capacity to do anything about it, if the water

gets

through, so does the fluoride - though it will take out any

silico-fluoride that has not dissociated and any larger molecules

that

may be produced by fluoride reacting with other stuff in the water.

In

the end it looks like there are various methods to remove fluoride,

all

problematic:

a) Most filters on the market are made of activated alumina. This has

some effectivity, but is apparently a toxic byproduct of some

industry,

and I, personally, don't want to touch it.

Special Ion Exchange Resins, called " strong base anion exchange

resins " . I found, for example, a web site here:

http://www.remco.com/ix.htm These are recharged with salt. The

problem

with this is that these are also industrially produced materials and

you

don't know what might be used in the process. This is not a moot

point.

See for example my comments on Reverse Osmosis below.

c) Aluminum sulphate and Lime. I doubt that there are any commercial

products for household use that use this. Leastwise, I couldn't find

any

reference to any such products.

d) Bone Char (burnt bone). Remember that fluoride is destructive of

bone

- that's where it wants to go. So, if you filter the water through

charred bone, some of it will be taken up by this material. This is

used

in filtration systems in third world countries all over the world

(where

they know that fluoride is a problem, not a " nutrient " ). I have not

been

able to find any commercial products that use this, and it appears

that

the water has to sit in the bone char for a period of about 24 hours

to

have an effect. If anyone has a product that does this, it would be

my

choice.

e) I was directed to an EPA report on the removal of fluoride from

water,

number EPA(570/9-78-001) If anyone looks into this and finds the

report,

_please_ forward it to me.

REVERSE OSMOSIS - from a message I sent to a friend on the subject:

RO is basically a filter with very small pores and water is forced

through

under pressure. It's a slow system, producing filtered water

gradually

and

storing it in a tank. Here are the problems.

1) The filter material, which has _very_ small pores, allowing

through

only

those molecules of atomic weight less that about 180 (water is 18),

is

made

in a high tech process. There are two kinds, " Thin Film Composite "

(TFC)

and " Cellulose Acetate " / " Cellulose Tri-Acetate " (CA/CTA). The second

is

preferable on a techinical basis because it is not as easily degraded

by

chlorine as the first. Problem is that the process necessary to make

such a

thing involves the use of some nasty chemicals:

[From Lono Kahuna upua A'O's book " Don't Drink the Water " , second

ed. 1998, ISBN 0-9628882-9-x]

A major question about RO systems using CA or CTA membranes

recently

surfaced through the research of Gene Shaparenko, owner of Aqua

Technology Water Stores, a company which manufactures distillers.

He

discovered that a chemical, known as 1,4,dioxane, is applied to the

cellulosic materials of which CA or CTA membranes are made.

[reported in

_The South Valley Times_, article " Lifelines " , Apr 1990] Its

purpose is

to etch the small pores in the material through which the water is

filtered. 1,4 dioxane is a colorless solvent which mixes easily

with

water. It is known to be extremely toxic when inhaled or absorbed

by

skin contact. It is ranked alongside asbestos, benzene, carbon

tetrachloride, DDT, formaldehyde, msutard, gas, PCBs, TCE, and

vinyl

chloride in the State of California's Toxic Chemical List.

According to Mr. Shaparenko, no one at the state or federal level

of

government seems to know that this chemical has been routinely used

to

manufacture membranes which are used to " purify " water. Nor does

anyone

seem to know just how much of the chemical leaches into the

finished

water product, or how many gallons it takes to effectively purge

the

chemical, if indeed, it is purged at all.

This is a major concern, because the vast majority of RO systems

sold for

residential use have employed CTA membranes. Not only are they

cheper

than TFC membranes, but resistant to chlorine, and most residential

customers are on chlorinated water supplies...

He may want to know this. I am not clear what the manufacturing

process is

for the TFC membranes, but they have been around longer and they may

have

been more closely inspected for their manufacturing methods. If he

switches

to TFC then he will need to put in a prefilter to remove the chlorine

so the

TFC filter does not get degraded.

2) Another quote from the same book:

According to a study published in Canada by Canadian virologists,

[Pierre

Payment, Franco, Lesley , and Jack Siemiatyci,

" Gastrointestinal Health Effects Associated with the Consumption of

Drinking Water Produced by Point-of-use Domestic Reverse osmosis

Filtration Units, " " Applied and Environmental Microbiology, " Vol.

57,

no. 4, April 1991, pp. 943-948.] it was discovered that RO systems

have a

penchant for growing bacteria, apparently because the finished

water is

devoid of chlorine and it takes so long to be made. Because the

water

sits stagnant at room temperature, sometimes for days, RO systems

become

an ideal breeding ground for bacteria, which can double their

populations

every 20 minutes or so. In their study of many types of RO

systems, the

virologists measured an average of 10,000 bacteria per millileter

of

water - 20 times the accepted level for city tap water. About a

third

of filters produced water with more that 100,000 bacteria per ml,

or 200

times more than average tap water. Some bred up to 10 million

bacteria

per ml!

The study went on to further demonstrate that, because of this

contamination (which occurs because bacteria contaminating the end

of the

dispensing faucet can be " sucked back " into the storage reservoir),

people who drink RO water suffer 10 times the number of bouts of

gastroenteritis as people who drink tap water.

The book's suggestion, if one has an RO system, is to replace CA/CTA

membranes by TFC membranes, put a prefilter like what is known as

" KDF " to

get rid of the chlorine, and add an ultra violet unit between the

storage

tank and the water dispensing faucet to kill the bacteria, and he

even

suggests a carbon post-filter between the RO unit and the storage

tank.

Now, I have not looked into the manufacturing process used to make

these

KDF

filters, so I don't know that they don't use something nasty too,

but the

little I know so far, it seems like it might be ok (it's apparently

just

a

zinc-copper alloy). Also the carbon filters include " Activated " ,

" Catalytic-Activated " and some of the " Catalytic-Activated " are

impregnated by

silver nitrate to keep bacteria from growing. This latter is also

poisonous

and to be avoided. I am not clear on the maufacturing process for

other

" Catalytic-Activated " filters. Even the merely " Activated " ones are

made

by

some sort of steam process starting from wood, coal or petroleum

products.

Those three get more distasteful as you do down the line. [Added for

this message:

Or coconut fibers - probably what we should go for.]

[Also I had a note about the availability of a] small KDF filter for

shower to get rid of the chlorine [29 bucks at HomeFocusCatalog.com,

part

number 1181128, 800-624-2112 and supposedly it lasts for a year]. I'm

also

showering in cold so that I don't inhale the steam which contains all

kinds of

chlorine byproducts and fluorine (along with a whole list of others

that

I

won't bother with here).

----------

CONCLUSION:

One more point on exposure. The EPA has standard methods to test

exposure to a pollutant in water. Accoring to those standard

calculations, 60% of our exposure comes through drinking the water

and a

full 40% comes from a) showering (skin absorption and inhallation of

steam) and absorbing the pollutant through the skin which is in

contact with cloths washed in the water. Since I cant figure out how

to

get the fluoride out of the water, I have taken the following

measures:

1) I get my drinking water from a well tested spring. I use it to

drink, cook and wash my vegetables.

2) I get water from a well that is dependable and which I use to

bathe (I

heat it on the stove, like the good old days) and wash my cloths (by

hand, it's not hard).

Nobody said that this was going to be easy!

In solidarity!

Dev.

May 22, 2004

Greetings Lynn,

We have had long discussions on water purification on this list in the past, so

I will try to be brief here. Thank you for the post - it raised some very good

points. Addressing the main concerns of the email below, there is a water

purifier which both removes fluoride and comes with a stainless steel UV light

to kill any bacteria that could conceivably grow in the tank or other parts of

the system. The basic unit is a 7 stage system with sediment prefilter, solid

carbon prefilter, 3 year 50 gallon/day TFC membrane, 2 deionization purifiers in

sequence, stainless UV, then post carbon filter. This system was originally

designed for a surgeon to create totally pure sterile water for medical

applications. As the 90s wore on and the disturbing headlines continued to

break, it became more clear that such a system was the only way to protect

ourselves from nasty hard-to-remove things like fluoride, but also MTBE,

chromium-6, lead, and even bioterrorism. None other than Sally Fallon has

purchased one of these (the full 14 stage version) from us (Radiant Life) and

has tested her DC water as free of fluoride after it went through this system.

She now recommends it in NT. It is very hard to find, but we carry it in our

catalog.

There are valid arguments against RO systems, and they are usually made by those

who promote various filters (as opposed to purifiers), which are simply

inadequate to deal with the terrible state of most municipal water in the US.

We make many of those same arguments ourselves but instead of throwing up our

hands and resorting to mere filtration, we offer a system that solves the major

drawbacks of RO (by incorporating 3 purifiers not just one, a stainless UV, and

restructuring/remineralization to make the water biocompatible). We had a

customer not long ago who called to say that he had discovered that in

Cincinatti his water was delivered to his house in LEAD PIPES! Fluoride, lead,

chloramine, MTBE, chromium-6, bacteriological threats, we are definitely still

in the dark ages around water in this country and this calls for appropriate

responses.

Feel free to learn more about the 7-stage triple purification system mentioned

above, or the full 14-stage system with mineral restructuring by requesting our

Radiant Life catalog or viewing the catalog online at

www.radiantlifecatalog.com. Apologies for essentially putting out an ad, but

our business is about helping people and this seemed like an opportunity to do

so. All questions welcomed.

All the best,

Christapher

Radiant Life

Re: Water Filtration Systems (long)

This is a post I just got permission to copy to here. It's from

another list I'm on.

It's an interesting read on this topic but long

Dev Rana wrote it and did the research.

Lynn

May 22, 2004

> We have had long discussions on water purification on this list in

the past, so I will try to be brief here. Thank you for the post -

it raised some very good points.

----> Yes I read ones before but I think this continues to be a

worthwhile to bring up over and over as it's so confusing. I really

appreciate your reply back and don't see it at all as an ad!

Right now we're using a multi-pure with an alumina filter attached

to remove the flouride. As far as I can tell this this seems to be

the same process Dalton uses with their filter?

I then buy glass bottled spring water to drink as I don't like the

taste of our city water filtered or not. So as I understand it

restructing the water and adding minerals back in with coral calcium

will bring back the taste as well as the other properties?

(If you have the time would you please explain more about this

restructing of water or point me towards some good web sites to

learn more)

I have looked at your 14 stage water filter so I really appreciate

the further info on it you just provided.

Lynn

May 22, 2004

>Right now we're using a multi-pure with an alumina filter attached

to remove the flouride. As far as I can tell this this seems to be

the same process Dalton uses with their filter?

-Same process.

>I then buy glass bottled spring water to drink as I don't like the

taste of our city water filtered or not. So as I understand it

restructing the water and adding minerals back in with coral calcium

will bring back the taste as well as the other properties?

-Not a lot to say except that this process mimics what happens in nature when

water flows over rocks in a stream or percolates through the earth. Except that

the water from this system has only organic ionic minerals, and no inorganic

minerals that are so common in spring water. The other thing to understand is

that water does have an energetic homeopathic memory (see the book Messages from

Water with all the pictures) and this must be erased prior to restructuring.

This system does all that. I can send a pdf file explaining the details to you

or anyone else who is interested. Feel free to email me privately so as not to

clutter the list with undue traffic.

As for bottled water, I would want to have any water I bought regularly tested

for TDS, pH, toxins, maybe ORP, and mineral type/content before I invested in it

over a long period. At least ask for an assay from your source and decide

whether you can trust it. It is our experience that most spring waters even if

free of toxins are not very biocompatible and hydrating. Of course, this would

seem to run counter to human experience over millennia. Not so - it just so

happens that while high quality foods are spread out widely over the planet,

high quality waters are much less so. It is a supreme example of appropriate

technology that allows us humans to rectify that situation.

All the best to you,

Christapher

May 27, 2004

> -Not a lot to say except that this process mimics what

> happens in nature when water flows over rocks in a stream

> or percolates through the earth. Except that the water

> from this system has only organic ionic minerals, and no

> inorganic minerals that are so common in spring water.

What do you mean by " organic " and " inorganic " ? Chemically speaking,

it refers to carbon compounds, so the carbonates and bicarbonates are

going to be the only common organic minerals found in water, and in

their dissolved state, they are just free ions floating around with

all the other ions. In fact, if you look at the mineral analyses

typically found on the labels of European mineral water, the minerals

are all listed as ions. Are the other ions somehow healthier when

they're in solution along with carbonate and bicarbonate ions? I'm

quite certain that the only time the mineral content of water is NOT

ionic is if it is colloidally suspended solids.

> The other thing to understand is that water does have an

> energetic homeopathic memory (see the book Messages from

> Water with all the pictures) and this must be erased prior

> to restructuring.

I'd always been wary of ooga-booga claims about esoteric water

filters, but we recently ditched our RO system (because RO water is

irritating to my wife's GI tract) for a heavy-duty set of non-RO

prefilters (fibrous sediment filter, ceramic cartridge, and carbon

block) followed by one of those Japanese Wellness Filters, and it's

the best drinking water I've ever had. I actually hesitated buying

the Wellness Filter because I was not at all impressed by the quality

of RO municipal water that had been run through it. But, even the

water filter guy was amazed by the feel and deliciousness of our

filtered Iowa pond water.

May 27, 2004

> I'd always been wary of ooga-booga claims about esoteric water

> filters, but we recently ditched our RO system (because RO water is

> irritating to my wife's GI tract)

----> Interesting..any ideas what was happening with her GI tract

and RO water? I used to use it but have switched to filtered.

> prefilters (fibrous sediment filter, ceramic cartridge, and carbon

> block) followed by one of those Japanese Wellness Filters, and it's

> the best drinking water I've ever had.

--- would you mind outlining in more detail exactly what you've

done for filtration? I've never heard of J. Wellness

Filters ...will have to look them up.

> water filter guy was amazed by the feel and deliciousness of our

> filtered Iowa pond water.

------> It sounds like flouride is not a problem for you. That seems

to be the biggy to try and get out without side effects.

Thanks so much for you input into this discussion!

Lynn

May 28, 2004

Hi ,

I am on vacation so I don't have much time for a reply.

Organic forms of minerals occur when a mineral has been through/part of a living

thing. They get bound with amino acid(s) and are more bioavailable. Most

spring waters have more inorganic than organic minerals and are not very

hydrating and can cause problems over the long run. You are correct about the

ionic part.

Restructuring water will be far more commonplace in the very near future I can

assure you. It sounds ooga booga because it is relatively new. If I'm not

mistaken the Wellness Filter uses similar concepts such as Far Infrared

restructuring as does the Nikken water system. The designer of our system is a

real empirical guy and only believes what he can see with his lab equipment, and

the restructuring system is no exception, though it is much harder to measure

quantitatively. Of course, I am not saying that every claim to restructure

water is valid! Just that it is something that can be valid if done correctly.

I could say more now but I am heading out to the river for a journey with my

cousins in the northwoods of Wisconsin! If you'd like to know more about any of

this from my perspective you can email me privately (or to the list) but I

probably won't be able to answer until I get back to California the middle of

next week.

Cheers,