Re: Re: Stability of QEEG measures

[Guest guest]

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You could experience anxiety down training beta in the back if you dont have enough alpha in the back. Look for the alpha /theta ratios to be about 1.5 or higher before you down train beta, if not train alpha up.

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Pete,Thanks a lot for your answer! Here is another question: I read that it may cause anxiety when downtraining posterior beta.But how can this happen. I thought that hi beta in posterior regions should not occure because more slow waves should be seen there. BTW - this group is really a great! > > > When we do a QEEG or a TLC, the measure is done in one moment of time> > under certain conditions. I wonder whether this is really a stable> > result. Of course not every assessment can be done twice, but I am> > sure scientists must have done so to prove that findings are stable> > when done under same conditions. Can anyone tell me where to find> > ressources about that fact?> > .> >> > > >> -- > Van Deusen> pvdtlc@...> http://www.brain-trainer.com> 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc.>

[Guest guest]

~

You could experience anxiety down training beta in the back if you dont have enough alpha in the back. Look for the alpha /theta ratios to be about 1.5 or higher before you down train beta, if not train alpha up.

~

-------------- Original message --------------

Pete,Thanks a lot for your answer! Here is another question: I read that it may cause anxiety when downtraining posterior beta.But how can this happen. I thought that hi beta in posterior regions should not occure because more slow waves should be seen there. BTW - this group is really a great! > > > When we do a QEEG or a TLC, the measure is done in one moment of time> > under certain conditions. I wonder whether this is really a stable> > result. Of course not every assessment can be done twice, but I am> > sure scientists must have done so to prove that findings are stable> > when done under same conditions. Can anyone tell me where to find> > ressources about that fact?> > .> >> > > >> -- > Van Deusen> pvdtlc@...> http://www.brain-trainer.com> 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc.>

[Guest guest]

,

The rule I teach in my Level 2 workshop on assessment is that if a person has sufficient alpha in the back of the head to take over the work alpha SHOULD be doing--and beta is doing--then training down beta is no problem.

However, many people have little alpha with the large amount of beta, so removing the beta leaves NOTHING to do the work of the parietal area, and the client often does become much more anxious.

Pete

Pete,Thanks a lot for your answer! Here is another question: I read that it may cause anxiety when downtraining posterior beta.But how can this happen. I thought that hi beta in posterior regions should not occure because more slow waves should be seen there. BTW - this group is really a great!

.. -- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Devida,

Eating, sleeping, exercising, getting happy, getting sad. The same things that change your physical level of energy.

Pete

Hi,May I ask, what are possible things of day to day life that change the amplitude ?

.. -- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

,

No, I agree with that this is not necessarily true. The first law of thermodynamics says that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another. So energy can be, for example, stored or released.

In the brain, when we train we are training bio-electric activity, which is closely connected with neurotransmitter activity. There are, as you know, excitatory neurotransmitters, which tell the next brain cell in a network to fire, and inhibitory neurotransmitters, which tell the next cell NOT to fire. The neurotransmitters don't necessarily tell brain cells to fire at a different rate.

When we use a windowed squash, for example, we do provide ceilings on much of the frequency band to nudge the brain toward lower amplitudes in those frequencies. But we leave open another area, so any neurons firing in that band are free to rise if they choose. Sometimes amplitudes in the windows rise, sometimes they fall less than the amplitudes in the squashed areas (changing their importance in the brain's activation patterns). Sometimes they just fall with the other frequencies. Sometimes the brain refuses to accept the training challenge and nothing happens.

Pete

Let me ask you something, I believe you mentioned sometime ago that when the amplitudes of certain frequencies are inhibit the amplitudes in the other frequencies should arise, is this correct?. As I understood in that opportunity the electricity in the brain is energy and energy never dies only changes, so if a neuron is firing in beta rhythm when the inhibit comes in that same neuron will slow down producing a slower rhythm such as lobeta or alpha perhaps.

If we are looking at a power spectrum with bins or a histogram and it has a significant amount, let's say, of beta and NFB training inhibit that frequency, pushing down those bins or bars that amount of energy should move to lowers frequencies increasing their amplitude or raising their bars.

.. -- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Pete, As I explained to you before, I am using the qEEG before and after my neurodevelopmental program of activities and excitingly see changes. For the past 4 years I look at the ratio Theta/Beta at CZ using the Monastra (1999) norms. Now I am using the TLC and get even more excited to observe changes in different areas, the 2-4 hz and 4-6hz especially. When I see changes I know the child has done the exercises at home and often when I do not see changes the parents have admitted that they were not really carrying the program. The activities in this program are based on movements that the baby did on a primitive reflexes based (sub-cortical-thalamus driven). So it makes sense that I see the changes. My question is: How much can I trust these changes? Does someone knows about research using the qEEG to compare "before" and "after" an intervention? Does anyone use this neurodevelopmental approach and the qEEG to measure the changes? What can I look for to keep my data reliable apart from: well artifacted, comparing the data at the same positions, doing the re-test at the same time of the day, using the same equipment to measure the same client, using the same software version ... I surely cannot control for 3-4 months their " Eating, sleeping, exercising, getting happy, getting sad. The same things that change your physical level of energy.Pete".Thank you for your attention to this matter.Suzanne Daysuzanne.day@...Ph. F. web: www.wisechoiceeducationalservices.comOn Jan 14, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Van Deusen wrote:, No, I agree with that this is not necessarily true. The first law of thermodynamics says that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another. So energy can be, for example, stored or released. In the brain, when we train we are training bio-electric activity, which is closely connected with neurotransmitter activity. There are, as you know, excitatory neurotransmitters, which tell the next brain cell in a network to fire, and inhibitory neurotransmitters, which tell the next cell NOT to fire. The neurotransmitters don't necessarily tell brain cells to fire at a different rate. When we use a windowed squash, for example, we do provide ceilings on much of the frequency band to nudge the brain toward lower amplitudes in those frequencies. But we leave open another area, so any neurons firing in that band are free to rise if they choose. Sometimes amplitudes in the windows rise, sometimes they fall less than the amplitudes in the squashed areas (changing their importance in the brain's activation patterns). Sometimes they just fall with the other frequencies. Sometimes the brain refuses to accept the training challenge and nothing happens. PeteOn Jan 14, 2008 12:59 PM, R. <jrdiaz> wrote:Let me ask you something, I believe you mentioned sometime ago that when the amplitudes of certain frequencies are inhibit the amplitudes in the other frequencies should arise, is this correct?. As I understood in that opportunity the electricity in the brain is energy and energy never dies only changes, so if a neuron is firing in beta rhythm when the inhibit comes in that same neuron will slow down producing a slower rhythm such as lobeta or alpha perhaps.If we are looking at a power spectrum with bins or a histogram and it has a significant amount, let's say, of beta and NFB training inhibit that frequency, pushing down those bins or bars that amount of energy should move to lowers frequencies increasing their amplitude or raising their bars. . -- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Pete, As I explained to you before, I am using the qEEG before and after my neurodevelopmental program of activities and excitingly see changes. For the past 4 years I look at the ratio Theta/Beta at CZ using the Monastra (1999) norms. Now I am using the TLC and get even more excited to observe changes in different areas, the 2-4 hz and 4-6hz especially. When I see changes I know the child has done the exercises at home and often when I do not see changes the parents have admitted that they were not really carrying the program. The activities in this program are based on movements that the baby did on a primitive reflexes based (sub-cortical-thalamus driven). So it makes sense that I see the changes. My question is: How much can I trust these changes? Does someone knows about research using the qEEG to compare "before" and "after" an intervention? Does anyone use this neurodevelopmental approach and the qEEG to measure the changes? What can I look for to keep my data reliable apart from: well artifacted, comparing the data at the same positions, doing the re-test at the same time of the day, using the same equipment to measure the same client, using the same software version ... I surely cannot control for 3-4 months their " Eating, sleeping, exercising, getting happy, getting sad. The same things that change your physical level of energy.Pete".Thank you for your attention to this matter.Suzanne Daysuzanne.day@...Ph. F. web: www.wisechoiceeducationalservices.comOn Jan 14, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Van Deusen wrote:, No, I agree with that this is not necessarily true. The first law of thermodynamics says that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another. So energy can be, for example, stored or released. In the brain, when we train we are training bio-electric activity, which is closely connected with neurotransmitter activity. There are, as you know, excitatory neurotransmitters, which tell the next brain cell in a network to fire, and inhibitory neurotransmitters, which tell the next cell NOT to fire. The neurotransmitters don't necessarily tell brain cells to fire at a different rate. When we use a windowed squash, for example, we do provide ceilings on much of the frequency band to nudge the brain toward lower amplitudes in those frequencies. But we leave open another area, so any neurons firing in that band are free to rise if they choose. Sometimes amplitudes in the windows rise, sometimes they fall less than the amplitudes in the squashed areas (changing their importance in the brain's activation patterns). Sometimes they just fall with the other frequencies. Sometimes the brain refuses to accept the training challenge and nothing happens. PeteOn Jan 14, 2008 12:59 PM, R. <jrdiaz> wrote:Let me ask you something, I believe you mentioned sometime ago that when the amplitudes of certain frequencies are inhibit the amplitudes in the other frequencies should arise, is this correct?. As I understood in that opportunity the electricity in the brain is energy and energy never dies only changes, so if a neuron is firing in beta rhythm when the inhibit comes in that same neuron will slow down producing a slower rhythm such as lobeta or alpha perhaps.If we are looking at a power spectrum with bins or a histogram and it has a significant amount, let's say, of beta and NFB training inhibit that frequency, pushing down those bins or bars that amount of energy should move to lowers frequencies increasing their amplitude or raising their bars. . -- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Pete, As I explained to you before, I am using the qEEG before and after my neurodevelopmental program of activities and excitingly see changes. For the past 4 years I look at the ratio Theta/Beta at CZ using the Monastra (1999) norms. Now I am using the TLC and get even more excited to observe changes in different areas, the 2-4 hz and 4-6hz especially. When I see changes I know the child has done the exercises at home and often when I do not see changes the parents have admitted that they were not really carrying the program. The activities in this program are based on movements that the baby did on a primitive reflexes based (sub-cortical-thalamus driven). So it makes sense that I see the changes. My question is: How much can I trust these changes? Does someone knows about research using the qEEG to compare "before" and "after" an intervention? Does anyone use this neurodevelopmental approach and the qEEG to measure the changes? What can I look for to keep my data reliable apart from: well artifacted, comparing the data at the same positions, doing the re-test at the same time of the day, using the same equipment to measure the same client, using the same software version ... I surely cannot control for 3-4 months their " Eating, sleeping, exercising, getting happy, getting sad. The same things that change your physical level of energy.Pete".Thank you for your attention to this matter.Suzanne Daysuzanne.day@...Ph. F. web: www.wisechoiceeducationalservices.comOn Jan 14, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Van Deusen wrote:, No, I agree with that this is not necessarily true. The first law of thermodynamics says that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another. So energy can be, for example, stored or released. In the brain, when we train we are training bio-electric activity, which is closely connected with neurotransmitter activity. There are, as you know, excitatory neurotransmitters, which tell the next brain cell in a network to fire, and inhibitory neurotransmitters, which tell the next cell NOT to fire. The neurotransmitters don't necessarily tell brain cells to fire at a different rate. When we use a windowed squash, for example, we do provide ceilings on much of the frequency band to nudge the brain toward lower amplitudes in those frequencies. But we leave open another area, so any neurons firing in that band are free to rise if they choose. Sometimes amplitudes in the windows rise, sometimes they fall less than the amplitudes in the squashed areas (changing their importance in the brain's activation patterns). Sometimes they just fall with the other frequencies. Sometimes the brain refuses to accept the training challenge and nothing happens. PeteOn Jan 14, 2008 12:59 PM, R. <jrdiaz> wrote:Let me ask you something, I believe you mentioned sometime ago that when the amplitudes of certain frequencies are inhibit the amplitudes in the other frequencies should arise, is this correct?. As I understood in that opportunity the electricity in the brain is energy and energy never dies only changes, so if a neuron is firing in beta rhythm when the inhibit comes in that same neuron will slow down producing a slower rhythm such as lobeta or alpha perhaps.If we are looking at a power spectrum with bins or a histogram and it has a significant amount, let's say, of beta and NFB training inhibit that frequency, pushing down those bins or bars that amount of energy should move to lowers frequencies increasing their amplitude or raising their bars. . -- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.