Re: Negative reaction with repeated protocols

[Guest guest]

Hello Gretchen,

I have found this to be true occasionally with kids.

Negative reaction with repeated

protocols

Date: 09-Sep-2008 07:37:13 -0600

>Hello all!

> 

>What do y'all do with clients who initially react very well

>to a protocol, and then after 3 or 4 sessions on that

>protocol, they have negative reactions?  I have tried

>switching to a different suitable protocol that initially

>went well, and same thing - after 3-4 sessions, negative

>results.  

>Anxiety tends to be a common symptom of these patients -

>both in why they are coming for NF, and as an

>increased symptom after 3-4 sessions (after an initial

>reduction/relief).  

>This, of course, after TLC and Subjective Assessments, and

>trying out a few protocols from those results.  

>I've had a few of these in the last year...any ideas??

> 

>Thanks!

>Gretchen

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Let's try this again. I have found this to be true

especially with kids. You'll be training along and

everything goes swimmingly and all of a sudden they stop

responding in a positive way. Many times there's nothing

discernible in the environment that has changed. Parents

become very frustrated.

I have found that sometimes it works to remove the

inhibits - that brains are sometimes so sensitive that the

inhibits are frustrating to them and they do better with

just a reward.

Another thing that might work is to adjust the reward

frequency up or down a Hz or two. If the brain has already

responded to the treatment, maybe it just needs a little

more encouragement to move in a certain direction.

One time nothing I tried worked. The parents

eventually quit the NF and I don't really blame them.

Good luck!

Jill

Negative reaction with repeated

protocols

Date: 09-Sep-2008 07:37:13 -0600

>Hello all!

> 

>What do y'all do with clients who initially react very well

>to a protocol, and then after 3 or 4 sessions on that

>protocol, they have negative reactions?  I have tried

>switching to a different suitable protocol that initially

>went well, and same thing - after 3-4 sessions, negative

>results.  

>Anxiety tends to be a common symptom of these patients -

>both in why they are coming for NF, and as an

>increased symptom after 3-4 sessions (after an initial

>reduction/relief).  

>This, of course, after TLC and Subjective Assessments, and

>trying out a few protocols from those results.  

>I've had a few of these in the last year...any ideas??

> 

>Thanks!

>Gretchen

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Let's try this again.

I have found this to be especially true of kids.

Some things I've found helpful:

1. Remove the inhibits. I think that occasionally the

brain is very sensitive and inhibits are frustrating to it

and it rebels. I know that's not very scientific, but it

sortof makes a little sense. Working just with a reward is

easier on the brain?

2. Adjust the reward frequency up or down just a

little bit - 1-2 Hz or even 0.5Hz. If the brain is very

plastic and has already made the adjustment, maybe it needs

a little more direction...

3. Use a different reward mechanism, e.g. AVIs instead

of DVDs. Or use just sound instead of A-V and let the child

perform some calming activity while he/she is doing NF.

This could be coloring or reading...

This can be very frustrating for the parents and the

provider. Good luck!

Jill

Negative reaction with repeated

protocols

Date: 09-Sep-2008 07:37:13 -0600

>Hello all!

> 

>What do y'all do with clients who initially react very well

>to a protocol, and then after 3 or 4 sessions on that

>protocol, they have negative reactions?  I have tried

>switching to a different suitable protocol that initially

>went well, and same thing - after 3-4 sessions, negative

>results.  

>Anxiety tends to be a common symptom of these patients -

>both in why they are coming for NF, and as an

>increased symptom after 3-4 sessions (after an initial

>reduction/relief).  

>This, of course, after TLC and Subjective Assessments, and

>trying out a few protocols from those results.  

>I've had a few of these in the last year...any ideas??

> 

>Thanks!

>Gretchen

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Just a thought Gretchen....Is it possible you are attributing the observed increase in anxiety to the wrong cause, that is neurofeedback. Maybe it is due to some situational change, change in physical health, etc.

Mike

Negative reaction with repeated protocols

Hello all!

What do y'all do with clients who initially react very well to a protocol, and then after 3 or 4 sessions on that protocol, they have negative reactions? I have tried switching to a different suitable protocol that initially went well, and same thing - after 3-4 sessions, negative results.

Anxiety tends to be a common symptom of these patients - both in why they are coming for NF, and as an increased symptom after 3-4 sessions (after an initial reduction/relief).

This, of course, after TLC and Subjective Assessments, and trying out a few protocols from those results.

I've had a few of these in the last year...any ideas??

Thanks!

Gretchen

Looking for spoilers and reviews on the new TV season? Get AOL's ultimate guide to fall TV.

[Guest guest]

Maybe the " situational change " is the introduction of neurofeedback? Like a " flight into health " ? (patient feels " better " initially, then retreats to prior level of functioning? as potentially seen in the introduction of **any** treatment?)

e.g. Sometimes the introduction of hope can be very anxiety-producing.Liz

Just a thought Gretchen....Is it possible you are attributing the observed increase in anxiety to the wrong cause, that is neurofeedback. Maybe it is due to some situational change, change in physical health, etc.

Mike

Negative reaction with repeated protocols

Hello all!

What do y'all do with clients who initially react very well to a protocol, and then after 3 or 4 sessions on that protocol, they have negative reactions? I have tried switching to a different suitable protocol that initially went well, and same thing - after 3-4 sessions, negative results.

Anxiety tends to be a common symptom of these patients - both in why they are coming for NF, and as an increased symptom after 3-4 sessions (after an initial reduction/relief).

This, of course, after TLC and Subjective Assessments, and trying out a few protocols from those results.

I've had a few of these in the last year...any ideas??

Thanks!

Gretchen

Looking for spoilers and reviews on the new TV season? Get AOL's ultimate guide to fall TV.

[Guest guest]

Gretchen,

Mike has a point. Is it possible those three session coincide with college/school/job starting? I train 4 kids. ALL 4 are having setbacks. I notice it most strongly in the anxiety area. I had their Alpha Beta symmetry numbers good and they were all doing very well mood wise. This week I have two kids that are driving their parents nuts. When I trained them both of them had their symmetry numbers back to areas of concern, both displayed noticeable increases in anxiety.

Hope that helps,

Nita

Subject: Negative reaction with repeated protocolsTo: braintrainer Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 9:24 AM

Hello all!

What do y'all do with clients who initially react very well to a protocol, and then after 3 or 4 sessions on that protocol, they have negative reactions? I have tried switching to a different suitable protocol that initially went well, and same thing - after 3-4 sessions, negative results.

Anxiety tends to be a common symptom of these patients - both in why they are coming for NF, and as an increased symptom after 3-4 sessions (after an initial reduction/relief) .

This, of course, after TLC and Subjective Assessments, and trying out a few protocols from those results.

I've had a few of these in the last year...any ideas??

Thanks!

Gretchen

[Guest guest]

Thanks to all the great comments/discussion on this!

Re-assessing may be what's in order here. Though, I do believe in the whole concept of the shift to a "better" state being anxiety-producing, itself. And I do realize too, we are lessening defenses that have built over a long time.

Three additional points of interest here:

1) All 3 clients with these types of reactions are Professors at the University

2) The reactions - anxiety surges, head fullness or headache, tend to occur right after the 3rd or so session, on the way back to the office, home, errands, etc.

3) No "rewards" involved in the protocols, mostly - generally, they have been windowed squashes of one type or another. An occasional C4 SMR attempt with same results.

So maybe the "inhibit" theory is correct with these people? Or maybe there's something really funky giong on at the university? What are the chances?!!!

Gretchen

[Guest guest]

Thanks to all the great comments/discussion on this!

Re-assessing may be what's in order here. Though, I do believe in the whole concept of the shift to a "better" state being anxiety-producing, itself. And I do realize too, we are lessening defenses that have built over a long time.

Three additional points of interest here:

1) All 3 clients with these types of reactions are Professors at the University

2) The reactions - anxiety surges, head fullness or headache, tend to occur right after the 3rd or so session, on the way back to the office, home, errands, etc.

3) No "rewards" involved in the protocols, mostly - generally, they have been windowed squashes of one type or another. An occasional C4 SMR attempt with same results.

So maybe the "inhibit" theory is correct with these people? Or maybe there's something really funky giong on at the university? What are the chances?!!!

Gretchen

[Guest guest]

Gretchen,It might be more helpful to you, and to the discussion, if you provided more specific information about these cases. Patterns related to anxiety are myriad. How about presenting some key findings from the assessments for the first client, mention what you tried in the way of training, what worked for the three sessions, etc. it would also be helpful to have some idea what the client's objectives were, sleep patterns, etc. Let's try talking in more detail about each of these individually and then see if we can find any common thread--even a general and very plausible one like mentioned: you trained one thing and something else changed too.

Pete

Thanks to all the great comments/discussion on this!

Re-assessing may be what's in order here. Though, I do believe in the whole concept of the shift to a " better " state being anxiety-producing, itself. And I do realize too, we are lessening defenses that have built over a long time.

Three additional points of interest here:

1) All 3 clients with these types of reactions are Professors at the University

2) The reactions - anxiety surges, head fullness or headache, tend to occur right after the 3rd or so session, on the way back to the office, home, errands, etc.

3) No " rewards " involved in the protocols, mostly - generally, they have been windowed squashes of one type or another. An occasional C4 SMR attempt with same results.

So maybe the " inhibit " theory is correct with these people? Or maybe there's something really funky giong on at the university? What are the chances?!!!

Gretchen

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305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Gretchen,It might be more helpful to you, and to the discussion, if you provided more specific information about these cases. Patterns related to anxiety are myriad. How about presenting some key findings from the assessments for the first client, mention what you tried in the way of training, what worked for the three sessions, etc. it would also be helpful to have some idea what the client's objectives were, sleep patterns, etc. Let's try talking in more detail about each of these individually and then see if we can find any common thread--even a general and very plausible one like mentioned: you trained one thing and something else changed too.

Pete

Thanks to all the great comments/discussion on this!

Re-assessing may be what's in order here. Though, I do believe in the whole concept of the shift to a " better " state being anxiety-producing, itself. And I do realize too, we are lessening defenses that have built over a long time.

Three additional points of interest here:

1) All 3 clients with these types of reactions are Professors at the University

2) The reactions - anxiety surges, head fullness or headache, tend to occur right after the 3rd or so session, on the way back to the office, home, errands, etc.

3) No " rewards " involved in the protocols, mostly - generally, they have been windowed squashes of one type or another. An occasional C4 SMR attempt with same results.

So maybe the " inhibit " theory is correct with these people? Or maybe there's something really funky giong on at the university? What are the chances?!!!

Gretchen

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-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

You're right, Pete...here's more details:

The latest client:

-52 y.o. female professor

-Early childhood sexual abuse - nightmares, "busy brain" & anxiety ever since

-Alcohol helps (2-3 drinks/night)

-TLC showed high T/B ratios, high peak frequencies of beta, low alpha peak freq., low C4 SMR, reverse activations, hot temporals and front/back reversals, high coherences in the parietals, relatively low amounts of alpha - though, 6-8 Hz shows a streak from Cz-Pz, under task

-Subjective assessment - highest issues were in midline and temporals

Tried each of the following for one session:

T3//T4 windowed squash (10-15) - much relief - calmer for 2 days

F3///C3 windowed squash (12-18) - really "alert and articulate" for a day

Alpha Sync - spacey, tired, a little panic

C4 SMR - kept anxiety at bay for rest of day

Returned to T3///T4 for 4 sessions, and on 4th session, she felt emotional, needy, and high anxiety. We took a break from that for the next session (the following day), and when returned to it the next week, the results were anxiety, racing thoughts, etc.

The intervening session was again the F3///C3, which created "stress free" 2 days. The next session of that resulted in an anxiety attack, after.

CLIENT #2

-37 y.o. professor

-ADHD, PTSD and anxiety dx from referring Psychiatrist

-TLC showed high T/B ratios, high peak frequencies of beta, low alpha peak freq., low C4 SMR, reverse activations, hot temporals and L/R reversals (all the way from front to back), scooped EEG

Initial protocols tried:

T3///T4 windowed squash (10-15) - "less irritable, clearer, motivation at work better"

F4///P4 windowed squash (10-15) - had headache at C4, but client said, "The area of that headache is where I think all my problems are."

C4 SMR - "less irritable"

Alpha Sync at P - felt better emotionally, but concentration later on was hard

After returning to T3///T4, for 3 sessions the results were good ("less irritable" "helping my marriage", "best day I've had in a long time"), but subsequent sessions produced "head pressure" and difficulty concentrating, but he felt "gains were worth it". i decreased training time (to try to prevent the head fullness), where we were down to 7-10 minutes (sometimes, this would "relieve" the head pressure he came to the session with, other times it would increase it), and ultimately, irritability was returning.

We also tried returning to C4 SMR, which helped irritability and with "getting things done" for a few sessions, and then he'd report depression, his memory was bad and he was "in a fog"

Hope this helps...thanks!

Gretchen

[Guest guest]

You're right, Pete...here's more details:

The latest client:

-52 y.o. female professor

-Early childhood sexual abuse - nightmares, "busy brain" & anxiety ever since

-Alcohol helps (2-3 drinks/night)

-TLC showed high T/B ratios, high peak frequencies of beta, low alpha peak freq., low C4 SMR, reverse activations, hot temporals and front/back reversals, high coherences in the parietals, relatively low amounts of alpha - though, 6-8 Hz shows a streak from Cz-Pz, under task

-Subjective assessment - highest issues were in midline and temporals

Tried each of the following for one session:

T3//T4 windowed squash (10-15) - much relief - calmer for 2 days

F3///C3 windowed squash (12-18) - really "alert and articulate" for a day

Alpha Sync - spacey, tired, a little panic

C4 SMR - kept anxiety at bay for rest of day

Returned to T3///T4 for 4 sessions, and on 4th session, she felt emotional, needy, and high anxiety. We took a break from that for the next session (the following day), and when returned to it the next week, the results were anxiety, racing thoughts, etc.

The intervening session was again the F3///C3, which created "stress free" 2 days. The next session of that resulted in an anxiety attack, after.

CLIENT #2

-37 y.o. professor

-ADHD, PTSD and anxiety dx from referring Psychiatrist

-TLC showed high T/B ratios, high peak frequencies of beta, low alpha peak freq., low C4 SMR, reverse activations, hot temporals and L/R reversals (all the way from front to back), scooped EEG

Initial protocols tried:

T3///T4 windowed squash (10-15) - "less irritable, clearer, motivation at work better"

F4///P4 windowed squash (10-15) - had headache at C4, but client said, "The area of that headache is where I think all my problems are."

C4 SMR - "less irritable"

Alpha Sync at P - felt better emotionally, but concentration later on was hard

After returning to T3///T4, for 3 sessions the results were good ("less irritable" "helping my marriage", "best day I've had in a long time"), but subsequent sessions produced "head pressure" and difficulty concentrating, but he felt "gains were worth it". i decreased training time (to try to prevent the head fullness), where we were down to 7-10 minutes (sometimes, this would "relieve" the head pressure he came to the session with, other times it would increase it), and ultimately, irritability was returning.

We also tried returning to C4 SMR, which helped irritability and with "getting things done" for a few sessions, and then he'd report depression, his memory was bad and he was "in a fog"

Hope this helps...thanks!

Gretchen

[Guest guest]

On this note of anxiety – I have had two clients pass out

the first time they were in the chair! Both were very unpleasant experiences. I

think both were mildly Aspergers, and were wired up without difficulty or too

much anxiety (though there was some, and I have subsequently paid more

attention to nerves). But then after about 5 minutes, and with virtually no

warning, both just keeled over, and had to be carried across the room to lie on

the couch. The one was a 9 year-old girl, the other was a 22 year-old male. The

man actually had some convulsions also, but recovered quickly enough to

volunteer to do some respiration and ERD work by the end of the session. Has

anyone else had an experience like this?

Harkness

Counselling Psychologist

Tel 0820607255, 031-2664710

tharkness@...

From: braintrainer

[mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Gretchen

Sent: 11 September 2008 20:57

To: braintrainer

Subject: Re: Negative reaction with repeated protocols

You're right, Pete...here's more details:

The latest client:

-52 y.o. female professor

-Early childhood sexual abuse - nightmares, " busy

brain " & anxiety ever since

-Alcohol helps (2-3 drinks/night)

-TLC showed high T/B ratios, high peak frequencies of

beta, low alpha peak freq., low C4 SMR, reverse activations, hot

temporals and front/back reversals, high coherences in the parietals,

relatively low amounts of alpha - though, 6-8 Hz shows a streak from Cz-Pz,

under task

-Subjective assessment - highest issues were in midline

and temporals

Tried each of the following for one session:

T3//T4 windowed squash (10-15) - much relief - calmer for

2 days

F3///C3 windowed squash (12-18) - really " alert and

articulate " for a day

Alpha Sync - spacey, tired, a little panic

C4 SMR - kept anxiety at bay for rest of day

Returned to T3///T4 for 4 sessions, and on 4th session,

she felt emotional, needy, and high anxiety. We took a break from that

for the next session (the following day), and when returned to it the

next week, the results were anxiety, racing thoughts, etc.

The intervening session was again the F3///C3, which

created " stress free " 2 days. The next session of that resulted

in an anxiety attack, after.

CLIENT #2

-37 y.o. professor

-ADHD, PTSD and anxiety dx from referring Psychiatrist

-TLC showed high T/B ratios, high peak frequencies of

beta, low alpha peak freq., low C4 SMR, reverse activations, hot

temporals and L/R reversals (all the way from front to

back), scooped EEG

Initial protocols tried:

T3///T4 windowed squash (10-15) - " less irritable,

clearer, motivation at work better "

F4///P4 windowed squash (10-15) - had headache at C4, but

client said, " The area of that headache is where I think all my problems

are. "

C4 SMR - " less irritable "

Alpha Sync at P - felt better emotionally, but

concentration later on was hard

After returning to T3///T4, for 3 sessions the results were

good ( " less irritable " " helping my marriage " , " best

day I've had in a long time " ), but subsequent sessions produced

" head pressure " and difficulty concentrating, but he felt

" gains were worth it " . i decreased training time (to try to

prevent the head fullness), where we were down to 7-10 minutes (sometimes,

this would " relieve " the head pressure he came to the session with,

other times it would increase it), and ultimately, irritability was

returning.

We also tried returning to C4 SMR, which helped

irritability and with " getting things done " for a few sessions, and

then he'd report depression, his memory was bad and he was " in

a fog "

Hope this helps...thanks!

Gretchen

[Guest guest]

Hi Gretchen,

Normally, I tend to read e-mails in this site and leave Pete to answer all the points as he has

much more experience in answering them than I.

But after reading yours e-mail below I thought that I must come in, because you point out something below

which, a lot of people who do NF, does it as well.

You point out that you identify two areas of the brain which needs training: T3//T4 & F3//C3. But you

train just one of them for many sessions - "Returned to T3///T4 for 4 sessions". But the brain is made of connections, so why train just one site for all those sessions? From the brain's point of view, the more

sites one trains the more equipotential the brain becomes. There are two areas in the brain that I always

train, at least for one session: the pre-frontal and parietal. These two areas are essencial for the good

functioning of the brain. If one reads articles, or other information, about these two areas, one knows

how important these two areas are in the process of the brain's development of every human.

Now I am not surprised about the reactions/behaviours your clients are displaying. Please, please,

try to find out about the functions of the sites of the brain you (and all of us who do NF) are training

and let's think that the brain LOVES activation at various sites.

All the best,

From: GretchenSent: Thu 09/11/2008 19:56To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Negative reaction with repeated protocols

You're right, Pete...here's more details:

The latest client:

-52 y.o. female professor

-Early childhood sexual abuse - nightmares, "busy brain" & anxiety ever since

-Alcohol helps (2-3 drinks/night)

-TLC showed high T/B ratios, high peak frequencies of beta, low alpha peak freq., low C4 SMR, reverse activations, hot temporals and front/back reversals, high coherences in the parietals, relatively low amounts of alpha - though, 6-8 Hz shows a streak from Cz-Pz, under task

-Subjective assessment - highest issues were in midline and temporals

Tried each of the following for one session:

T3//T4 windowed squash (10-15) - much relief - calmer for 2 days

F3///C3 windowed squash (12-18) - really "alert and articulate" for a day

Alpha Sync - spacey, tired, a little panic

C4 SMR - kept anxiety at bay for rest of day

Gretchen

Returned to T3///T4 for 4 sessions, and on 4th session, she felt emotional, needy, and high anxiety. We took a break from that for the next session (the following day), and when returned to it the next week, the results were anxiety, racing thoughts, etc.

The intervening session was again the F3///C3, which created "stress free" 2 days. The next session of that resulted in an anxiety attack, after.

CLIENT #2

-37 y.o. professor

-ADHD, PTSD and anxiety dx from referring Psychiatrist

-TLC showed high T/B ratios, high peak frequencies of beta, low alpha peak freq., low C4 SMR, reverse activations, hot temporals and L/R reversals (all the way from front to back), scooped EEG

Initial protocols tried:

T3///T4 windowed squash (10-15) - "less irritable, clearer, motivation at work better"

F4///P4 windowed squash (10-15) - had headache at C4, but client said, "The area of that headache is where I think all my problems are."

C4 SMR - "less irritable"

Alpha Sync at P - felt better emotionally, but concentration later on was hard

After returning to T3///T4, for 3 sessions the results were good ("less irritable" "helping my marriage", "best day I've had in a long time"), but subsequent sessions produced "head pressure" and difficulty concentrating, but he felt "gains were worth it". i decreased training time (to try to prevent the head fullness), where we were down to 7-10 minutes (sometimes, this would "relieve" the head pressure he came to the session with, other times it would increase it), and ultimately, irritability was returning.

We also tried returning to C4 SMR, which helped irritability and with "getting things done" for a few sessions, and then he'd report depression, his memory was bad and he was "in a fog"

Hope this helps...thanks!

Gretchen

[Guest guest]

Gretchen,I think Tim has a very interesting point. If you have two effective protocols during the trials, especially if they seem to work in opposite directions as the T FC trainings did, it may be a very good idea to alternate them. I do generally recommend that once you find a protocol that works, you continue with it. Since the brain is interconnected, the effect of training at T3/A1 and T4/A2 will be felt all over the brain. In general, I've found that training consistency results in a more stable change in brain patterns. But in a case like this, where you have lots of stuff going on, rotating the training a bit may be a great solution to the problem you are seeing.

I assume that client 1 is not continuing to drink while training. That would be a very bad idea. Both of these have trauma histories. I would seriously consider, if you will be working with this population, that you take a look at Dave Bercelli's stuff. Both also have low alpha peaks (probably contributing to the high theta/beta ratios) and probably poor alpha blocking. The response to alpha synchrony training suggests to me that alpha is low, and that could help to explain the response to that. I know you did some windowed squashes to increase alpha peaks. I think I would try training it directly. Moving alpha up into the appropriate range--and effectively blocking it with eyes open and at task--can make a huge difference.

You didn't mention whether either client is taking any medication. One of the things you always look for in medicated clients is a list of the signs of overmedication for the various ones she is taking. It's not uncommon to get this kind of reversal of effect if medications are involved, since changes in the brain's energy system often result in changes in the chemistry as well. What was an appropriate dosage before training started can quickly become excessive.

Any other reactions or ideas?Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160

The Learning Curve, Inc.

You're right, Pete...here's more details:

The latest client:

-52 y.o. female professor

-Early childhood sexual abuse - nightmares, " busy brain " & anxiety ever since

-Alcohol helps (2-3 drinks/night)

-TLC showed high T/B ratios, high peak frequencies of beta, low alpha peak freq., low C4 SMR, reverse activations, hot temporals and front/back reversals, high coherences in the parietals, relatively low amounts of alpha - though, 6-8 Hz shows a streak from Cz-Pz, under task

-Subjective assessment - highest issues were in midline and temporals

Tried each of the following for one session:

T3//T4 windowed squash (10-15) - much relief - calmer for 2 days

F3///C3 windowed squash (12-18) - really " alert and articulate " for a day

Alpha Sync - spacey, tired, a little panic

C4 SMR - kept anxiety at bay for rest of day

Returned to T3///T4 for 4 sessions, and on 4th session, she felt emotional, needy, and high anxiety. We took a break from that for the next session (the following day), and when returned to it the next week, the results were anxiety, racing thoughts, etc.

The intervening session was again the F3///C3, which created " stress free " 2 days. The next session of that resulted in an anxiety attack, after.

CLIENT #2

-37 y.o. professor

-ADHD, PTSD and anxiety dx from referring Psychiatrist

-TLC showed high T/B ratios, high peak frequencies of beta, low alpha peak freq., low C4 SMR, reverse activations, hot temporals and L/R reversals (all the way from front to back), scooped EEG

Initial protocols tried:

T3///T4 windowed squash (10-15) - " less irritable, clearer, motivation at work better "

F4///P4 windowed squash (10-15) - had headache at C4, but client said, " The area of that headache is where I think all my problems are. "

C4 SMR - " less irritable "

Alpha Sync at P - felt better emotionally, but concentration later on was hard

After returning to T3///T4, for 3 sessions the results were good ( " less irritable " " helping my marriage " , " best day I've had in a long time " ), but subsequent sessions produced " head pressure " and difficulty concentrating, but he felt " gains were worth it " . i decreased training time (to try to prevent the head fullness), where we were down to 7-10 minutes (sometimes, this would " relieve " the head pressure he came to the session with, other times it would increase it), and ultimately, irritability was returning.

We also tried returning to C4 SMR, which helped irritability and with " getting things done " for a few sessions, and then he'd report depression, his memory was bad and he was " in a fog "

[Guest guest]

Not sure if this will help at all but I have worked a lot with abused kids and adults in the past 5 years and I have found that if I split up the protocols that it works much nicer for people. An example would be if I do T3T4 I know that is emotional stuff so I follow that with with a C4 to try and relax things too. I NEVER start with T3T4 because sometimes the reactions really stink!!! I wait a few sessions until they have established some calmness and then I do a little bit each time and kind of build them up a bit. This seems to work well and haven't had any issues since I have been doing this way.

Best of luck. Hope this helps.

Let me know if you need a more detailed example.

shar

[Guest guest]

THANKS Pete, , and Sharrie for your helpful advice and experience.

This helps me think "outside the box" (at least of my own training and experience) a bit more in terms of moving the training around (particularly when response is good in more than one location). I have certainly tried and rotated several protocols with clients throughout treatment, but haven't used the rotation itself as a treatment modality, per se.

And yes, both clients are on medications - Client #1 uses Lexapro and Xanax, and Client 2 uses Wellbutrin.

I would be curious to hear others' experience and philosophies on rotating protocols and training at multiple sites. It feels like you wouldn't be addressing each site as much (comparing this to say doing one protocol at one site for 20 sessions), but that addressing more areas and getting the whole brain on board would equal the gains and longevity of repeated training at one site?

THANKS!

Gretchen

[Guest guest]

THANKS Pete, , and Sharrie for your helpful advice and experience.

This helps me think "outside the box" (at least of my own training and experience) a bit more in terms of moving the training around (particularly when response is good in more than one location). I have certainly tried and rotated several protocols with clients throughout treatment, but haven't used the rotation itself as a treatment modality, per se.

And yes, both clients are on medications - Client #1 uses Lexapro and Xanax, and Client 2 uses Wellbutrin.

I would be curious to hear others' experience and philosophies on rotating protocols and training at multiple sites. It feels like you wouldn't be addressing each site as much (comparing this to say doing one protocol at one site for 20 sessions), but that addressing more areas and getting the whole brain on board would equal the gains and longevity of repeated training at one site?

THANKS!

Gretchen

[Guest guest]

We trained 2 sites each sesison, and it worked great. All down in the front, then SMR% between rear and center. Sleep improved really quickly, aggression improved steadily after the first handful of sessions.

Rah

To: braintrainer From: blueartcat@...Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:53:42 -0700Subject: Re: Negative reaction with repeated protocols

>...

>I would be curious to hear others' experience and philosophies on rotating protocols and training at multiple sites. ...

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[Guest guest]

We trained 2 sites each sesison, and it worked great. All down in the front, then SMR% between rear and center. Sleep improved really quickly, aggression improved steadily after the first handful of sessions.

Rah

To: braintrainer From: blueartcat@...Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:53:42 -0700Subject: Re: Negative reaction with repeated protocols

>...

>I would be curious to hear others' experience and philosophies on rotating protocols and training at multiple sites. ...

Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. See Now

[Guest guest]

We trained 2 sites each sesison, and it worked great. All down in the front, then SMR% between rear and center. Sleep improved really quickly, aggression improved steadily after the first handful of sessions.

Rah

To: braintrainer From: blueartcat@...Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:53:42 -0700Subject: Re: Negative reaction with repeated protocols

>...

>I would be curious to hear others' experience and philosophies on rotating protocols and training at multiple sites. ...

Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. See Now

[Guest guest]

THANKS, Rah...how many minutes did you do, per site, each session?

~Gretchen

 

Posted by: " Rah Wheelihan " wheelihan82@...   wheelihan82

Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:43 am (PDT)

We trained 2 sites each sesison, and it worked great. All down in the front,

then SMR% between rear and center. Sleep improved really quickly, aggression

improved steadily after the first handful of sessions.

Rah

[Guest guest]

THANKS, Rah...how many minutes did you do, per site, each session?

~Gretchen

 

Posted by: " Rah Wheelihan " wheelihan82@...   wheelihan82

Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:43 am (PDT)

We trained 2 sites each sesison, and it worked great. All down in the front,

then SMR% between rear and center. Sleep improved really quickly, aggression

improved steadily after the first handful of sessions.

Rah

[Guest guest]

I am interested too. Also -- what types of stimuli do you use to train with, and does it matter? (do you correlate the " liveliness " / " calmness " of stimuli to what you are trying to achieve and to the particular sites?)

liz

THANKS, Rah...how many minutes did you do, per site, each session?

~Gretchen

Posted by: " Rah Wheelihan " wheelihan82@... wheelihan82

Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:43 am (PDT)

We trained 2 sites each sesison, and it worked great. All down in the front, then SMR% between rear and center. Sleep improved really quickly, aggression improved steadily after the first handful of sessions.

Rah

[Guest guest]

I am interested too. Also -- what types of stimuli do you use to train with, and does it matter? (do you correlate the " liveliness " / " calmness " of stimuli to what you are trying to achieve and to the particular sites?)

liz

THANKS, Rah...how many minutes did you do, per site, each session?

~Gretchen

Posted by: " Rah Wheelihan " wheelihan82@... wheelihan82

Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:43 am (PDT)

We trained 2 sites each sesison, and it worked great. All down in the front, then SMR% between rear and center. Sleep improved really quickly, aggression improved steadily after the first handful of sessions.

Rah