Re: For was: which sugar is worse

June 15, 2004

Fredrik,

I'm glad you told your story. i know myself and i know i would just

substitute fruit for bread.

the books i mentioned along with the web site, potatoes not Prozac etc.

and www.radiantrecovery.com, she is adamant about having SOME healthy

starch (she calls it a brown). she has worked with thousands of people

and while she started off against 'browns', and just eating protein and

'greens' at each meal, she now feels that a small, healthy starch is

crucial to making her program work. i feel better when i have it. i

feel deprived and hungry and like i haven't really eaten if i skip it.

and if i do skip a starch with a meal, then i have an apple for dessert

and i feel like i have eaten, and i feel satisfied. without the starch

or the apple, i feel very unsatisfied and find myself eating again an

hour or two later.

so maybe it just varies from person to person.

thanks, Fredrik.

laura

I once gave up starchy foods because I thought they were bad.

Immediately I started to gorge on fruit and berries instead,

especially dried ones. I had a couple of fat eating periods

as well but mostly I was a fruit addict besides eating nuts,

vegetables and meat. I had constant attacks of weakness and

fatigue that I thought were normal and would pass. Nothing

happened. After about one and a half years I started to

question why I felt so crappy compared to other people around

me who didn't eat whole foods. I reintroduced starch to my

diet and my weakness, fatigue and unsatisfaction disappeared.

It was a miracle. I felt so stable and happy! For two months

I've been eating mostly rye and fermented dairy. I haven't

had much desire for fruit. I've only eaten it a couple of

times.

June 15, 2004

:

I gave up wheat bread at once when gluten intolerance was mentioned. When I was

feeling overwhelmed about giving up other grains, Katja suggested I remember how

I " quit " wheat bread, just choose one thing and quit it. Incidentally I was then

able to tolerate dairy with no stomach disturbance....yay!!!!!

I eat an occasional potato, occasional Rice and Shine hot cereal...no pasta. I

still have trouble with sugary baked goodies....but hey, I started with bread,

and that was a ot easier than I thought.

You hate ALL veggies? good grief what a way to go through life! *L* I feel bad

for you!!!!

marie

Re: For was: which sugar is worse

hi Marie,

thanks for that.

what I'm thinking...is...i think what i read by Mercola.

I've given up sugar, white flour and alcohol. all three were very

difficult for me. now I'm working on caffeine. this isn't easy either.

somebody said, maybe Mercola, that our bodies were designed, optimally,

to burn fat for energy and not carbs. if you eat a lot of fat, you'll be

thin. if you eat a lot of carbs, you'll be fat.

i can never give up starches for very long.

June 15, 2004

Fredrik, Maybe your system can tolerate some of the grains, but I think

is talking mostly about the refined gluten grains such as wheat, corn, potatoes,

etc.Irene

That's a gross generalisation. I eat a lot of starch every day(rye bread and rye

porridge). I'm not overweight and I'm notgaining.Since all the common complex

carbohydrates (starches/refined grains) are polymers of glucose, and many of

them are metabolized very rapidly into glucose, and we eat more of them by

weight, the contribution of wheat, corn, potato and other forms of high-GI

starches to poor health is greater than that of many of the simple sugars.

Here's a major warning:I once gave up starchy foods because I thought they were

bad. Immediately I started to gorge on fruit and berries instead, especially

dried ones.

If you gorge on anyone particular food, you're not going to feel well - you have

to balance your diet. Also, dried fruits are a no-no - loaded with sugar.

Fruit has its limits like all other foods. It's not aeat-all-you-want food as I

thought it was. Modern fruitseems to be troublesome compared to wild varieties.

I wasn'ta fruitarian but here's something to read and

ponder:http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/fruit-dreams/index.shtmlNot all are like me

of course but I'm sure many humansare designed for starch. I know women who have

starch as theirprimary source of energy and they look fine to me. Although Ieat

a lot of butter I don't feel well having fat as my primarysource of

energy.Fredrik,the fruitphobic and starchlover

_______________________________________________

No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.

Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com

June 15, 2004

Christie,

i have tried Atkins numerous times in the last 30 years or so. every

time i only lasted a few weeks or a month. i was hungry. never

satisfied. i would be in ketosis, still hungry, still not satisfied, and

i didn't lose weight.

i admire and envy those who can attack Atkins the way it should be

attacked, and lost weight, and stay on it forever.

i, too, eat most of my calories in the first part of the day. but i have

a hard time not eating before bed.

my problem is hunger. since giving up sugar i no longer eat for fun or

out of boredom. i eat when I'm hungry and some days it seems like I'm

hungry all day.

it's as if my fat cells are all screaming for food cuz they want to get

fatter or something. it's the hunger. i don't understand why I'm always

hungry. and i mean HUNGRY. discomfort in my belly and the need to eat

to ease that discomfort.

I'm hungry right now. there's food in my belly but I'm hungry.

if you would have any helpful advice about Atkins i might be willing to

try it one more time; or maybe it's just not for me.

i don't know.

laura

I have lost just a hair under a hundred pounds in the last 13 months,

doing

WAPF but also doing Atkins, and getting SEVENTY PERCENT OF MY CALORIES

FROM

FAT.

June 15, 2004

>somebody said, maybe Mercola, that our bodies were designed, optimally,

>to burn fat for energy and not carbs. if you eat a lot of fat, you'll be

>thin. if you eat a lot of carbs, you'll be fat.

It's not just Mercola ... that pretty much is how the body works.

The " normal " mode is considered to be (at a cellular level) burning

fat plus a little glycogen. The body can burn JUST glycogen, and does,

under some circumstances (during wind sprints, or maybe when

the body is out of shape or just has too much glycogen), and the body

can burn JUST fat, and does during ketosis. But usually it is a mix,

with the body burning more fat than glycogen.

However, if you have a lot of certain hormones circulating, the

body blocks fat from leaving fat cells, which

is what eating too many starches/sugars does. Then you end

up being REALLY HUNGRY even though you have all that fat to burn.

>i can never give up starches for very long. i must be addicted to them,

>too and have to work on giving them up, too. sigh. i just hope that's

>IT!!

>

>so, Marie, i really appreciate what you said. i don't eat much starch;

>a piece of bread here, a baked potato there.

>

>anyone have any success getting off and staying off starches? any

>secrets? i hate veggies. love fruit.

Not to sound like a broken record, but the Warrior Diet works for

me. It regulates the hormones so your body burns fat, without

necessarily giving up starches. I eat fruit during the day, and typically

have some hash browns (my favorite!) or some other starch at night

along with a steak or chicken or whatever. My starch " cravings " aren't

really there anymore though ... I get hungry for specific things

but it's not the I GOTTA EAT kind of cravings and I crave fresh foods

more than cooked right now. And sweets really don't get eaten .. I made

a great birthday cake and we all had a piece, and then it's sat in the

kitchen and no one has eaten it much and it's not like I'm forcing

myself not to ... it's just that a banana sounds more appetizing, or

some nice watermelon.

Eating just protein and fat does help regulate the hormones, but

most people just can't or won't stick to that regimen ... I

can't! But the feast/fast protocol is VERY effective at regulating

blood sugar, even without changing the diet. In one study with T2

diabetics, they had the people just semi-fast one day a week (600

calories that day) and eat normally the rest of the time. They all

had blood sugar and weight improvements, and you gotta figure most

were eating junk. (Health Magazine, last November).

I also think that wheat really fouls up the appestat for many people ...

it messes with the villi in the upper intestine, and just getting wheat

out of the diet will help with cravings regardless of the other starches

in the diet. For some people casein does a similar thing. Fructose is

a real problem too, not just because of the liver issue but because a

big chunk of the population doesn't have the right enzymes to

process it so it causes bacterial overgrowth issues. Fructose in fruit

doesn't seem to be such an issue, maybe becaues of enzymes in

the fruit? But in sucrose and soft drinks, there is a lot more of it

plus there are no enzymes.

-- HeidiJean

June 15, 2004

so Christie...what do you suggest i do, then?

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:18:00 -0700 " Christie "

<christiekeith@...> writes:

No one has ever made positive, lasting change in their lives out of

self-hatred or disgust.

June 15, 2004

>Not all are like me of course but I'm sure many humans

>are designed for starch. I know women who have starch as their

>primary source of energy and they look fine to me. Although I

>eat a lot of butter I don't feel well having fat as my primary

>source of energy.

>

>Fredrik,

>the fruitphobic and starchlover

Well, I'm with you, though I do love fruit (I don't gorge

on it though, and I don't eat dried fruit much anymore). I

don't feel well if I don't get starch though.

Personally I think the idea that Paleo folks didn't eat starch

is just not accurate. There are lots of starchy roots around,

and a lot of hunter-gatherers eat them. They are pretty easy

to get out of the ground, and people have had fire a lot longer

than was previously thought. There are also starchy nuts, like

chestnuts. Omnivores such as pigs (which are close to humans

in food processing) dig roots out of the ground and eat them,

and a lot of tribal societies depend on roots as a food source

(i.e. cassava and tapioca and yams!). Said roots are " slow carbs "

usually, so they are easier on the blood sugar, and they

are loaded with nutrients usually, and I doubt that

the tribes snacked all day on potato chips, but they are still

starch.

Grains are harder to gather, and harder to process and

store, and those I think are more recent (in large quantity,

anyway).

Some modern fruits are higher in sugar, but not always. A lot

of old-time fruits, such as paw-paws and persimmon, are VERY

sweet naturally. Sugar content has been lowered in some

fruits so they keep better in the supermarket. But a lot of

folks don't digest fructose right ... I don't know why, it could

be a side-effect of organ damage (most gluten-intolerant folks

lack enzymes for awhile until they have been GF for some years

sometimes) or it could be genetic. And in any case, it is really

hard to eat enough fresh fruit to get a lot of fructose. Can

you really eat 20 apples? Most people can eat one, max!

-- Heidi Jean

June 16, 2004

>> if you would have any helpful advice about Atkins i might be willing to

try it one more time; or maybe it's just not for me. <<

I would bet you almost anything you weren't eating enough fat.

Dr. Atkins said if you are hungry, EAT. He also said that we need to

identify hunger vs an emotional need to eat. If you are hungry, you're not

doing Atkins!

Every single time I got hungry, I would eat, usually some raw cheese. A

friend doing Atkins taught me that trick. Even when I " wanted " something

else, the cheese settled the cravings right down. Atkins is not about being

hungry, it's about NOT being hungry, that's a large part of what makes it

different!

Christie

June 16, 2004

>> so Christie...what do you suggest i do, then? <<

, I spent over twenty years working on this question. I loved and

accepted myself as a fat woman, and didn't let it make me put my life on

hold. I got on with it. I did things. I refused to call myself " hideous " or

hate my body.

Therapy, reading, thinking, working on the character traits I wanted,

meditation, yoga, weight lifting, friends, love, healing my relationship

with food (see my article " The Food of Love Thing " ).... and yes, therapy.

Christie

June 16, 2004

>i guess i should try going off wheat for that reason alone; i would LOVE

>to be able to drink raw milk. it gives me such horrible pains, gas and

>bloating.

A lot of people with gluten intolerance don't produce

enzymes correctly, which leads to lactose intolerance. A lot

of them start producing the enzymes again after giving

up wheat.

But in the meantime, you can take enzyme pills. Also drinking

kefir helps a lot of people (the bacteria in the kefir produce

the enzymes for you, and help heal the enzyme machinery).

Me, I'm not lactose intolerant but I'm casein intolerant ... kefir

is ok though, and some cooked milk products, maybe it

changes the shape of the molecule or maybe something else

is going on, I'm not sure.

-- Heidi Jean

June 16, 2004

Have you thought about the metabolic typing diet that dr. mercola

promotes? It's moretailored towards your unique needs as far as

protein/fat/carbs goes. It might help you more than forcing yourself to

try atkins when your body isn't designed for it.

Re: For was: which sugar is worse

* Christie,

i have tried Atkins numerous times in the last 30 years or so. every

time i only lasted a few weeks or a month. i was hungry. never

satisfied. i would be in ketosis, still hungry, still not satisfied,

and

i didn't lose weight.

..

June 16, 2004

> Hi Robin,

>

> as a WAPF member i'm aware of sprouting and sourdough.

>

> but i still wonder...does eating sprouted and sourdoughed grains

take

> care of the weight issue? or do i have to go off grains

completely til i

> lose what i want, then maybe introduce it back gradually, and if i

start

> gaining again, just go off them completely?

Gosh, I don't know. Some people think so. Have your read Dr.

Schwarzbein's book? You may just have some metabolic healing to

do. If so, an initial cutback of carbs is part of the healing

process, increasing the amount as you metabolism heals. You never

eat less than 15 grams of carbs per meal/snack. Non-starchy

vegetables are not counted as carbs. Anyhow, I do better following

Schwarzbein than I did the Warrior diet. I'm wondering if with time

I can try the Warrior diet again once my metabolism heals. At this

time in my life it just wasn't working.

Robin

June 16, 2004

Hi

>>>okay, the 3 books that really helped me were:

Potatoes Not Prozac

The Sugar Addict's Total Recovery Program

Your Last Diet.

the author is Dr. Kathleen DesMaisons. her web site is

www.radiantrecovery.com>>>

I was following that program for about 18 months or more. It really helped to

understand how blood-sugar/insulin, seratonin and endorphins affect our moods,

cravings, etc. I didn't lose any weight while I was doing it, but felt a whole

lot better. I then started reading Dr Mercola's site and found I do better

without grains and potatoes. My problem is having them in the house for the

kids. When I am doing well (managing to avoid sugars/starches), I find I start

to feel horrible if the amount of fat I am having drops too low. I think those

of us who are carb sensitive do better on more fat and less starches, while

others who are OK with more carbs may not be so good with as much fat.

>>>you just have to KNOW the rules and STICK to them if you don't want

to get slapped on the wrist. yes i know! it can be horrible.>>>

Ahhhh yes! I got my wrist slapped and my butt kicked a few too many times I

think that program is good for learning a few basics, but there is much more to

the (good nutrition) story and Kathleen is not very open to having her theories

challenged.

>>>if i could combine her 7 step plan with WAPF I'd be in heaven. but she

recommends cutting out sat. fat.

it turns out, from her and others' research, that those of us who are

'sugar sensitive' also have a marked tendency to put on weight from sat.

fat! and i am living proof (see my previous post...)>>>

As I said above, I think many of us need to go further with eliminating

starches. Saturated fat is not a bad thing if the animal is not fed on grains.

I'm happy to discuss 'Radiant Recovery' off list if you want.

Cheers,

Tas'.

June 16, 2004

Oooooooh, I think I'm in love

Re: For was: which sugar is worse

Busse <laurabusse@j...> wrote:

> my body wants to be fat, no matter what i do. it's like a

> disorder. it's very frustrating.

Most women I know who say they want to loose weight are not fat

in my eyes. I don't understand what they´re talking about. I

like when woman have body fat. I don't think that makes me

an anomaly. I hope I'm not offending anybody here. I don't think

you have a disorder . I think nature just wants to make you

attractive to some men.

Kindly,

Fredrik

June 16, 2004

>>>anyway, I've heard that if you consume a lot of dairy, your desire for

veggies goes down. milk is really just bio-processed grass. if you

drink milk, your body thinks it's had its veggies already. since i

joined WAPF and have greatly increased my dairy consumption (i consume

about a quart of kefir per day plus a quart of yogurt. that's pretty

much breakfast, lunch, snacks and before bed) I've consumed even less

veggies than before WAPF>>>

That reminded me of something:

****

My kind of logic.....

Diet and exercise misconceptions.

Some serious thought went into this....

Q: I've heard that Cardio-vascular exercise can prolong Life. Is this true?

A: Your Heart is only good for so many beats, and that's it.... so don't waste

them on Exercise. Everything wears out eventually. Speeding up

your Heart will not make you live longer. That's like thinking you can extend

the life of your Car by driving it faster. Want to live longer? Take a Nap.

Q: Should I cut down on Meat and eat more Fruits and Vegetables?

A: You must grasp logistical efficiencies. What does a Cow eat? Hay and Corn.

And what are these? Vegetables! So a Steak is nothing

more than an efficient mechanism of delivering Vegetables to your system. Need

Grains? Eat Chicken. Beef is also a good source of field

Grass (green leafy vegetable). A Pork Chop can give you 100% of your recommended

daily allowance of Vegetable Slop.

Q: Is Beer or Wine bad for me?

A: Look, it all goes back to the earlier point about Fruits and Vegetables. As

we all know, Scientists divide everything in the World into three

categories: Animal, Mineral, and Vegetable. We all know that Beer and Wine are

not Animal, and they are not on the Periodic Table of Elements, so that only

leaves one thing, right? So my advice is: Have a Burger, a Beer, and enjoy your

liquid Vegetables.

Q: How can I calculate my Body/Fat ratio?

A: Well, if you have a Body, and you have Body Fat, your ratio is one to one. If

you have two Bodies, your ratio is two to one, etc.

Q: What are some of the advantages of participating in a regular Exercise

program?

A: I can't think of a single one. Sorry. My philosophy is:- No Pain - Good.

Q: Aren't Fried Foods bad for you?

A: You're not listening. Foods are fried these days in Vegetable Oils. In fact

they're permeated in it. How could getting more Vegetables be bad

for you?

Q: What's the secret to healthy eating?

A: A thicker Gravy.

Q: Will Sit-ups help prevent me from getting a little soft around the Middle?

A: Definitely not! When you exercise a Muscle, it gets bigger. You should only

be doing Sit-ups if you want a bigger Stomach.

Q: Is Chocolate bad for me?

A: Are you Crazy? Cocoa Beans... Another Vegetable. It's the best feel-good Food

around!

Q: Shouldn't we all be in good shape?

A: Of course. Round is a good shape!

I hope this has cleared up any misconceptions you may have had about Food and

Diets.

Have a great Day, and by the way have a Cookie... Flour is a Vegetable!

Signed Dr. Wantabe Wouldbe. Retired Diet Analyst, and Philosopher...

***

And another one I found while I was looking for it:

Subject: The Truth About Those Conflicting Medical Studies

For those of you who watch what you eat... Here's the final word on nutrition

and health. It's a relief to know the truth after all the conflicting medical

studies.

1. The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the

British or Americans.

2. The Mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British

or Americans.

3. The Japanese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than

the British or Americans

4. The Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and suffer fewer heart

attacks than the British or Americans.

5. The Germans drink a lot of beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer

fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

CONCLUSION: Eat and drink what you like. Speaking English is apparently what

kills you.

Cheers,

Tas'.

June 16, 2004

Fat certainly helps you feel satisfied longer. Maybe if you can give us a sample

menu, someone else can make some other suggestions.

Cheers,

Tas'.

Re: For was: which sugar is worse

Christie,

i have tried Atkins numerous times in the last 30 years or so. every

time i only lasted a few weeks or a month. i was hungry. never

satisfied. i would be in ketosis, still hungry, still not satisfied, and

i didn't lose weight.

i admire and envy those who can attack Atkins the way it should be

attacked, and lost weight, and stay on it forever.

i, too, eat most of my calories in the first part of the day. but i have

a hard time not eating before bed.

my problem is hunger. since giving up sugar i no longer eat for fun or

out of boredom. i eat when I'm hungry and some days it seems like I'm

hungry all day.

it's as if my fat cells are all screaming for food cuz they want to get

fatter or something. it's the hunger. i don't understand why I'm always

hungry. and i mean HUNGRY. discomfort in my belly and the need to eat

to ease that discomfort.

I'm hungry right now. there's food in my belly but I'm hungry.

if you would have any helpful advice about Atkins i might be willing to

try it one more time; or maybe it's just not for me.

June 16, 2004

:

I've been eating a kings ransom in radishes every day for the last week..I eat

cucumbers whenever I get the chance to buy them, and when ours are ready to

harvest, I love salad, I LOVE zucchini and summer squash steamed on the grill

with salt, butter and garlic...veggies are good to me.......*S* I also love milk

and drink a kefir smoothie every single blessed day...SO...I can't say as I have

the same exp. milk/veggies.

Also, I didn't go off wheat comletely...just what BREAD.....something I ate a

LOT of.

Marie

Re: For was: which sugar is worse

hi Marie,

thanks for that.

what I'm thinking...is...i think what i read by Mercola.

I've given up sugar, white flour and alcohol. all three were very

difficult for me. now I'm working on caffeine. this isn't easy

either.

somebody said, maybe Mercola, that our bodies were designed, optimally,

to burn fat for energy and not carbs. if you eat a lot of fat, you'll

be

thin. if you eat a lot of carbs, you'll be fat.

i can never give up starches for very long.

June 16, 2004

>> it turns out, from her and others' research, that those of us who are

'sugar sensitive' also have a marked tendency to put on weight from sat.

fat! and i am living proof <<

And I'm loving DISproof. I eat tons and tons of sat fat, and have lost

nearly a hundred pounds in a year! And believe me, I'm the queen of the

sugar addicts!

Christie

June 16, 2004

Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@t...> wrote:

> Personally I think the idea that Paleo folks didn't eat starch

> is just not accurate. There are lots of starchy roots around,

> and a lot of hunter-gatherers eat them. They are pretty easy

> to get out of the ground, and people have had fire a lot longer

> than was previously thought. There are also starchy nuts, like

> chestnuts. Omnivores such as pigs (which are close to humans

> in food processing) dig roots out of the ground and eat them,

> and a lot of tribal societies depend on roots as a food source

> (i.e. cassava and tapioca and yams!). Said roots are " slow carbs "

> usually, so they are easier on the blood sugar, and they

> are loaded with nutrients usually, and I doubt that

> the tribes snacked all day on potato chips, but they are still

> starch.

Heidi, that's exactly what I realized by myself when I

reintroduced starch to my diet! Since I didn't like potatoes,

wheat, oats and rice, I chose rye as my source. Not a hunter

gatherer food exactly, but better than fruit to me personally.

As soon as I chose rye I felt I had to eat dairy as well.

These two things appear to complement each other.

Fredrik

Arena for vegheads and meatheads

vegvsmeat/

June 16, 2004

Christie,

good article, thanks.

have you ever read the Yoga of Eating? it's an excellent book. he

promotes the same 'method' that programs do of never overeating and

eating only when hungry; the secret is to focus utterly on enjoyment of

your food and not being distracted by eating in front of the TV, etc.

this way you enjoy it more and feel more satisfied by it and thus you

will eat less of it and not overeat.

about veggies, yes, I'm horribly spoiled. i hate to cook. i hate to

prepare food. so if someone will make nice veggies for me...I'll eat

them. but that's the problem. i know...I'm horrible.

since i joined WAPF and have been reading about people who have survived

quite healthily on only milk and meat whatever, i thought maybe i could

eat kefir for breakfast, yogurt for lunch (all raw, of course) and so

only be concerned with cooking one meal per day for my family.

but I'm finding myself to not be satisfied with only raw dairy. I'm

constantly hungry all day and by 4 pm i can't take it anymore so i eat a

meal and so am usually full when dinner time rolls around.

laura

You DO like them, it's just you only like them when they're prepared

well.

What's wrong with that? Who would want to eat them if they are NOT

prepared

well? Why eat things you don't like?

June 16, 2004

ROTFLOL You just made my day!

<sand8013@...> wrote:

Mrs. Siemens

Helpmeet to , mommy to Zachary & Lydia

" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto

salvation.... "

-Romans 1:16a-

---------------------------------

Post your free ad now! Canada Personals

June 16, 2004

wow, heidi, i'm saving this post...thanks. lots to think about!

laura

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:46:33 -0700 Heidi Schuppenhauer

<heidis@...> writes:

>somebody said, maybe Mercola, that our bodies were designed, optimally,

>to burn fat for energy and not carbs. if you eat a lot of fat, you'll