Re: Here it is ...the topic I've been avoiding until now!

[Guest guest]

I don't think I mentioned "giving in." I said listen and respect - not easy, always easier to jump in and demand that I am right - and off we go on another round of battles, tension, horrible feelings and so unhealthy effects on the kids - I'm just saying what I wished I'd done - and yes we still have kids in the house, and yes we still battle, so I guess I'm saying what I need to also work on :>) As for final decisions - I wish I had those answers how to deal with it Klarapurpleveg wrote: That is nice advice Klara. Problem is how do we know what is the right thing to give in on and the other to fight for? I guess deep down we do know?> I forgot one other question to my post.> If IF getting a boy circumcised at what age is best??? > First day (oh I think that would be extra terrible! Poor thing would be thinking please put me back in the womb where I was safe!), 1 week, 8 > ---------------------------------> The fish are biting.> Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > > > > > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------> Be a PS3 game guru.> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. > > > > > Through gardening, we feel whole as we make our personal work of art upon our land.> - Moir Messervy, The Inward Garden> http://www.myspace.com/homegrownsouthernstyle > > > ---------------------------------> TV dinner still cooling?> Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.>

Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debatein the Yahoo! Answers Food Drink Q&A.

[Guest guest]

I don't think I mentioned "giving in." I said listen and respect - not easy, always easier to jump in and demand that I am right - and off we go on another round of battles, tension, horrible feelings and so unhealthy effects on the kids - I'm just saying what I wished I'd done - and yes we still have kids in the house, and yes we still battle, so I guess I'm saying what I need to also work on :>) As for final decisions - I wish I had those answers how to deal with it Klarapurpleveg wrote: That is nice advice Klara. Problem is how do we know what is the right thing to give in on and the other to fight for? I guess deep down we do know?> I forgot one other question to my post.> If IF getting a boy circumcised at what age is best??? > First day (oh I think that would be extra terrible! Poor thing would be thinking please put me back in the womb where I was safe!), 1 week, 8 > ---------------------------------> The fish are biting.> Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > > > > > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------> Be a PS3 game guru.> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. > > > > > Through gardening, we feel whole as we make our personal work of art upon our land.> - Moir Messervy, The Inward Garden> http://www.myspace.com/homegrownsouthernstyle > > > ---------------------------------> TV dinner still cooling?> Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.>

Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debatein the Yahoo! Answers Food Drink Q&A.

[Guest guest]

I can't believe this!!! My man and I were having the circ discussion

and while he agrees with me (maybe he doesn't just says he does to

shut me up? Kidding) he mentioned the piercings, tattoos, etc too

Thing is we are adults piercing or tattooing, etc we are making

decisions for ourselves, not letting someone who is supposed to

nurture us take control in that manner.

Although I used to go for electrolosis years ago and the woman told

me that a couple called to bring their 'daughter' in to have her legs

done. Ended up they had a son of 8 or younger and they wanted to

make him a girl. The woman threatened to call the police and the

couple hung up. That poor child........

About the AIDS/Africa thing, and I were talking about that last

night and he read that this isn't true that it's impossible to find

sterile conditions to perform the circ's. Shoot, ???

> >

> >> Everything in the Bible is symbolic of something much deeper

than the

> >> silly literal. Focusing on the literal holds us back from the

beauty

> >> that will come from the words as you realize, all the

> >> parables/stories, which are Outside representations, really

represent

> >> what is WithIN US. We can choose to look withOUT, at the literal

> >> things of the world, and follow, hold rituals, repeat certain

words,

> >> ..but it is good to make all these things happen withIN. They

are all

> >> stories about you, ..not other people and things. That's just my

> >> understanding and what I've gathered through my experience. Of

course

> >> we can all choose how we want to interpret it. I am a little less

> >> interested in the physical, literal, outward stuff, and more

> >> interested in the spiritual, metaphorical, inward stuff, which I

> >> believe helps us to bring about transmutation and true alchemy.

Is

> >> there a story about Abraham being willing to slaughter his son

on an

> >> alter, or is it a story about us, and how we need to be willing

to

> >> sacrifice our own carnal nature(child of the world) on the altar,

> >> which is our hearts, ..to the True God, -which only loves

spiritual

> >> sacrifice? Again, we all have the right to interpret as we wish.

> >>

> >> Blessings and hope that all will keep their minds open for their

own sake.

> >>

> >> amy--- 

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

you haven't seen my legs...............

waxing is not an option it's a must. LOL

> > >

> > >> Everything in the Bible is symbolic of something much deeper

than the

> > >> silly literal. Focusing on the literal holds us back from the

beauty

> > >> that will come from the words as you realize, all the

> > >> parables/stories, which are Outside representations, really

represent

> > >> what is WithIN US. We can choose to look withOUT, at the

literal

> > >> things of the world, and follow, hold rituals, repeat certain

words,

> > >> ..but it is good to make all these things happen withIN. They

are all

> > >> stories about you, ..not other people and things. That's just

my

> > >> understanding and what I've gathered through my experience. Of

course

> > >> we can all choose how we want to interpret it. I am a little

less

> > >> interested in the physical, literal, outward stuff, and more

> > >> interested in the spiritual, metaphorical, inward stuff, which

I

> > >> believe helps us to bring about transmutation and true

alchemy. Is

> > >> there a story about Abraham being willing to slaughter his son

on an

> > >> alter, or is it a story about us, and how we need to be

willing to

> > >> sacrifice our own carnal nature(child of the world) on the

altar,

> > >> which is our hearts, ..to the True God, -which only loves

spiritual

> > >> sacrifice? Again, we all have the right to interpret as we

wish.

> > >>

> > >> Blessings and hope that all will keep their minds open for

their

> own sake.

> > >>

> > >> amy---

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

you haven't seen my legs...............

waxing is not an option it's a must. LOL

> > >

> > >> Everything in the Bible is symbolic of something much deeper

than the

> > >> silly literal. Focusing on the literal holds us back from the

beauty

> > >> that will come from the words as you realize, all the

> > >> parables/stories, which are Outside representations, really

represent

> > >> what is WithIN US. We can choose to look withOUT, at the

literal

> > >> things of the world, and follow, hold rituals, repeat certain

words,

> > >> ..but it is good to make all these things happen withIN. They

are all

> > >> stories about you, ..not other people and things. That's just

my

> > >> understanding and what I've gathered through my experience. Of

course

> > >> we can all choose how we want to interpret it. I am a little

less

> > >> interested in the physical, literal, outward stuff, and more

> > >> interested in the spiritual, metaphorical, inward stuff, which

I

> > >> believe helps us to bring about transmutation and true

alchemy. Is

> > >> there a story about Abraham being willing to slaughter his son

on an

> > >> alter, or is it a story about us, and how we need to be

willing to

> > >> sacrifice our own carnal nature(child of the world) on the

altar,

> > >> which is our hearts, ..to the True God, -which only loves

spiritual

> > >> sacrifice? Again, we all have the right to interpret as we

wish.

> > >>

> > >> Blessings and hope that all will keep their minds open for

their

> own sake.

> > >>

> > >> amy---

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

you haven't seen my legs...............

waxing is not an option it's a must. LOL

> > >

> > >> Everything in the Bible is symbolic of something much deeper

than the

> > >> silly literal. Focusing on the literal holds us back from the

beauty

> > >> that will come from the words as you realize, all the

> > >> parables/stories, which are Outside representations, really

represent

> > >> what is WithIN US. We can choose to look withOUT, at the

literal

> > >> things of the world, and follow, hold rituals, repeat certain

words,

> > >> ..but it is good to make all these things happen withIN. They

are all

> > >> stories about you, ..not other people and things. That's just

my

> > >> understanding and what I've gathered through my experience. Of

course

> > >> we can all choose how we want to interpret it. I am a little

less

> > >> interested in the physical, literal, outward stuff, and more

> > >> interested in the spiritual, metaphorical, inward stuff, which

I

> > >> believe helps us to bring about transmutation and true

alchemy. Is

> > >> there a story about Abraham being willing to slaughter his son

on an

> > >> alter, or is it a story about us, and how we need to be

willing to

> > >> sacrifice our own carnal nature(child of the world) on the

altar,

> > >> which is our hearts, ..to the True God, -which only loves

spiritual

> > >> sacrifice? Again, we all have the right to interpret as we

wish.

> > >>

> > >> Blessings and hope that all will keep their minds open for

their

> own sake.

> > >>

> > >> amy---

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

ah, because we are MORE than the animals - besides the skills for communication (look at us all here on the computers) and our wonderful thumb abilities, we have - oh oh vegan group - but anyway - souls, spirits, philosophy, egos, and loads of problems, I mean challenges :>) - sure you might also feel that way about the animals, but I just keep thinking we are something more than animals - when was the last time you saw an animal eat with chopsticks???!!! Klarapurpleveg wrote: you haven't seen my legs...............waxing is not an option it's a must. LOL> > > > > >> Everything in the Bible is symbolic of something much deeper than the> > >>

silly literal. Focusing on the literal holds us back from the beauty> > >> that will come from the words as you realize, all the> > >> parables/stories, which are Outside representations, really represent> > >> what is WithIN US. We can choose to look withOUT, at the literal> > >> things of the world, and follow, hold rituals, repeat certain words,> > >> ..but it is good to make all these things happen withIN. They are all> > >> stories about you, ..not other people and things. That's just my> > >> understanding and what I've gathered through my experience. Of course> > >> we can all choose how we want to interpret it. I am a little less> > >> interested in the physical, literal, outward stuff, and more> > >> interested in the spiritual, metaphorical, inward stuff, which I>

> >> believe helps us to bring about transmutation and true alchemy. Is> > >> there a story about Abraham being willing to slaughter his son on an> > >> alter, or is it a story about us, and how we need to be willing to> > >> sacrifice our own carnal nature(child of the world) on the altar,> > >> which is our hearts, ..to the True God, -which only loves spiritual> > >> sacrifice? Again, we all have the right to interpret as we wish.> > >> > > >> Blessings and hope that all will keep their minds open for their> own sake.> > >> > > >> amy--- > > > > > >> >>

Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.

[Guest guest]

ah, because we are MORE than the animals - besides the skills for communication (look at us all here on the computers) and our wonderful thumb abilities, we have - oh oh vegan group - but anyway - souls, spirits, philosophy, egos, and loads of problems, I mean challenges :>) - sure you might also feel that way about the animals, but I just keep thinking we are something more than animals - when was the last time you saw an animal eat with chopsticks???!!! Klarapurpleveg wrote: you haven't seen my legs...............waxing is not an option it's a must. LOL> > > > > >> Everything in the Bible is symbolic of something much deeper than the> > >>

silly literal. Focusing on the literal holds us back from the beauty> > >> that will come from the words as you realize, all the> > >> parables/stories, which are Outside representations, really represent> > >> what is WithIN US. We can choose to look withOUT, at the literal> > >> things of the world, and follow, hold rituals, repeat certain words,> > >> ..but it is good to make all these things happen withIN. They are all> > >> stories about you, ..not other people and things. That's just my> > >> understanding and what I've gathered through my experience. Of course> > >> we can all choose how we want to interpret it. I am a little less> > >> interested in the physical, literal, outward stuff, and more> > >> interested in the spiritual, metaphorical, inward stuff, which I>

> >> believe helps us to bring about transmutation and true alchemy. Is> > >> there a story about Abraham being willing to slaughter his son on an> > >> alter, or is it a story about us, and how we need to be willing to> > >> sacrifice our own carnal nature(child of the world) on the altar,> > >> which is our hearts, ..to the True God, -which only loves spiritual> > >> sacrifice? Again, we all have the right to interpret as we wish.> > >> > > >> Blessings and hope that all will keep their minds open for their> own sake.> > >> > > >> amy--- > > > > > >> >>

Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.

[Guest guest]

ah, because we are MORE than the animals - besides the skills for communication (look at us all here on the computers) and our wonderful thumb abilities, we have - oh oh vegan group - but anyway - souls, spirits, philosophy, egos, and loads of problems, I mean challenges :>) - sure you might also feel that way about the animals, but I just keep thinking we are something more than animals - when was the last time you saw an animal eat with chopsticks???!!! Klarapurpleveg wrote: you haven't seen my legs...............waxing is not an option it's a must. LOL> > > > > >> Everything in the Bible is symbolic of something much deeper than the> > >>

silly literal. Focusing on the literal holds us back from the beauty> > >> that will come from the words as you realize, all the> > >> parables/stories, which are Outside representations, really represent> > >> what is WithIN US. We can choose to look withOUT, at the literal> > >> things of the world, and follow, hold rituals, repeat certain words,> > >> ..but it is good to make all these things happen withIN. They are all> > >> stories about you, ..not other people and things. That's just my> > >> understanding and what I've gathered through my experience. Of course> > >> we can all choose how we want to interpret it. I am a little less> > >> interested in the physical, literal, outward stuff, and more> > >> interested in the spiritual, metaphorical, inward stuff, which I>

> >> believe helps us to bring about transmutation and true alchemy. Is> > >> there a story about Abraham being willing to slaughter his son on an> > >> alter, or is it a story about us, and how we need to be willing to> > >> sacrifice our own carnal nature(child of the world) on the altar,> > >> which is our hearts, ..to the True God, -which only loves spiritual> > >> sacrifice? Again, we all have the right to interpret as we wish.> > >> > > >> Blessings and hope that all will keep their minds open for their> own sake.> > >> > > >> amy--- > > > > > >> >>

Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.

[Guest guest]

Hello Dear Group,

Personally I am not so interested in the issues of circumcision as the thinking behind the discussion, although I will address the very good points people have made.

It does serve as an interesting event to look at how we use our minds. Ohsawa tried to link a lot of our thinking and emotions to food. In retrospect he may have overplayed aspects of this but it is food for thought. His theory was that if we eat a diet high in saturated fats and salts our blood vessels become hardened including those of the brain. and Michio went on to speculate that this physical condition resulted in people finding it harder to be mentally flexible with the result that he or she would take up fixed positions on topics without being able to see the other side of an argument or even change thought patterns in life. It has been thought in the macro community that eating a diet of extremes precipitates extremes of thought and dualistic thinking ie becoming obsessed with right and wrong. For example an extremely yang diet high in meat and salt being balanced out with extremes of yin such as alcohol and sugar.

In addition we could speculate that anyone eating a limited, rigid diet (including a repetitive version of a macrobiotic diet) may develop rigid thought patterns that even if he or she wanted to would find difficult to escape. This might explain why people in the macrobiotic community including some teachers are not immune from self righteousness!

None of us know whether there is any truth in this line of thinking but if we choose to accept that our physical body, emotions and thoughts are all interlinked and influence each other (I think most of us will know this from personal experience) then our thinking will inevitably reflect our physical condition and if food is an influence on our physical condition what we put in our mouths could determine how we use our minds. In addition to this we could explore the idea that living whole foods have a spiritual energy of their own and that by consuming this energy we again may change our emotional energy resulting in different thoughts again.

Now in this particular discussion a lot of words have been used that are relative – barbaric, mutilation, inhumane, violent........ - being relative and not absolute terms we need to place them in context. Where would for example circumcision come in a list that included genocide in Rwanda, the Iraq war, dropping two atoms bombs on the civilians of Japan when one was enough, the holocaust, some of Stalin’s purges etc. If we use those words to describe circumcision what’s left to describe other events?

The point being that living in a relative world we can balance out our claims and try and put them in context. The main argument against circumcision seems to be that the baby does not have a choice and it would be painful. Let’s put the natural claim to one side for now. In relative, flexible thinking how would this compare to the process of natural birth, how painful is it compared to a smack, how damaging or emotionally painful is it compared to us not letting our children have the foods their friends are having, how upsetting is it compared to not receiving physical affection as a child and so on. These are all things that children do not have a choice over a could potentially cause pain.

I have heard the same argument put forward regarding pain and trauma for suggesting it is better to give birth by C section. In the UK smacking children has been banned and I think as adults many of us might agree. However I was interested to find out from my children that a smack or a brief shout was least upsetting whereas time out or even worse a long patronising lecture were the things they hated most. I am always being reminded how foolish assumptions can be.

Personally I have brought my children up in a way regarding food that they could turn round as adults and say I screwed them up. I am aware of that and I do try to get the balance between giving them what I consider to be healthy food and freedom to make their choices but it is only my assumption that I have been close to getting that right for each one of them. I do my best but only time will tell. For me I would feel hypocritical laying into anyone else for having his or her child circumcised when for all I know I could unwittingly be doing more harm to my own children trying to help them be aware of food. Is there any karmic link or idea of poetic justice when it comes to criticising others?

There is plenty of evidence regarding AIDs circumcision and Africa. Here are some links.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/06/MNGANDJFVK1.DTL & type=printableL

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0726_050726_circumcision.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/28/world/africa/28africa.html?ex=1303876800 & en=ddc5294f31df4cc1 & ei=5088

Let me know your thoughts on all of this. I love to have these games of mental chess!

All the best,

Simon

There's a huge difference in being an adult and choosing to alter yourself in whatever way and being an infant and unable to speak for yourself against being mutilated. 

It's not the same. 

It's one thing to have " preferences " and another to inhumanely brutalize infants 

simply because our warped society appears to think it's perfectly normal.

We're obviously in serious trouble when we attempt to equate genital mutilation & make up, eating processed foods or leg shaving.

These are things all chosen by adults which is entirely their right.

If adults want to alter themselves fine. Children need to be free of pain and harm until they are adults to decide for themselves.

But why DO we shave, pluck eyebrows, cut hair, wax legs, get tattoos,

eat processes food, and even WEAR CLOTHES. We are silly animals

aren't we? Hopefully, as we educate each other, we can grow out of

most of that! AT least I wouldn't mind!!

amy

> >

> >> Everything in the Bible is symbolic of something much deeper than the

> >> silly literal. Focusing on the literal holds us back from the beauty

> >> that will come from the words as you realize, all the

> >> parables/stories, which are Outside representations, really represent

> >> what is WithIN US. We can choose to look withOUT, at the literal

> >> things of the world, and follow, hold rituals, repeat certain words,

> >> ..but it is good to make all these things happen withIN. They are all

> >> stories about you, ..not other people and things. That's just my

> >> understanding and what I've gathered through my experience. Of course

> >> we can all choose how we want to interpret it. I am a little less

> >> interested in the physical, literal, outward stuff, and more

> >> interested in the spiritual, metaphorical, inward stuff, which I

> >> believe helps us to bring about transmutation and true alchemy. Is

> >> there a story about Abraham being willing to slaughter his son on an

> >> alter, or is it a story about us, and how we need to be willing to

> >> sacrifice our own carnal nature(child of the world) on the altar,

> >> which is our hearts, ..to the True God, -which only loves spiritual

> >> sacrifice? Again, we all have the right to interpret as we wish.

> >>

> >> Blessings and hope that all will keep their minds open for their

own sake.

> >>

> >> amy---

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Amy,

Yes it is a huge question and one we could spend the rest of our lives debating.

Is it because we learnt how to cook foods and separate ourselves biologically and spiritually from nature?

Is it because we came from another planet and shouldn’t really be here at all?

Is is because we evolved to stand upright align all our chakras and became better connected to the spiritual world?

Is is simply that we are obsessed with taking control of our environment?

So much to think about. What are your thoughts?

Best wishes,

Simon

But why DO we shave, pluck eyebrows, cut hair, wax legs, get tattoos,

eat processes food, and even WEAR CLOTHES. We are silly animals

aren't we? Hopefully, as we educate each other, we can grow out of

most of that! AT least I wouldn't mind!!

amy

> >

> >> Everything in the Bible is symbolic of something much deeper than the

> >> silly literal. Focusing on the literal holds us back from the beauty

> >> that will come from the words as you realize, all the

> >> parables/stories, which are Outside representations, really represent

> >> what is WithIN US. We can choose to look withOUT, at the literal

> >> things of the world, and follow, hold rituals, repeat certain words,

> >> ..but it is good to make all these things happen withIN. They are all

> >> stories about you, ..not other people and things. That's just my

> >> understanding and what I've gathered through my experience. Of course

> >> we can all choose how we want to interpret it. I am a little less

> >> interested in the physical, literal, outward stuff, and more

> >> interested in the spiritual, metaphorical, inward stuff, which I

> >> believe helps us to bring about transmutation and true alchemy. Is

> >> there a story about Abraham being willing to slaughter his son on an

> >> alter, or is it a story about us, and how we need to be willing to

> >> sacrifice our own carnal nature(child of the world) on the altar,

> >> which is our hearts, ..to the True God, -which only loves spiritual

> >> sacrifice? Again, we all have the right to interpret as we wish.

> >>

> >> Blessings and hope that all will keep their minds open for their

own sake.

> >>

> >> amy---

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

HUGE GRIN I LOVE how you open everything - again I can't put in the time now to respond fully - I hope I will get to it A pleasure reading your words Klara"Simon G. Brown" wrote: Hello Dear Group,Personally I am not so interested in the issues of circumcision as the thinking behind the discussion, although I will address the very good points people have made.It does serve as

an interesting event to look at how we use our minds. Ohsawa tried to link a lot of our thinking and emotions to food. In retrospect he may have overplayed aspects of this but it is food for thought. His theory was that if we eat a diet high in saturated fats and salts our blood vessels become hardened including those of the brain. and Michio went on to speculate that this physical condition resulted in people finding it harder to be mentally flexible with the result that he or she would take up fixed positions on topics without being able to see the other side of an argument or even change thought patterns in life. It has been thought in the macro community that eating a diet of extremes precipitates extremes of thought and dualistic thinking ie becoming obsessed with right and wrong. For example an extremely yang diet high in meat and salt being balanced out with extremes of yin such as alcohol and sugar.In addition we could speculate that anyone

eating a limited, rigid diet (including a repetitive version of a macrobiotic diet) may develop rigid thought patterns that even if he or she wanted to would find difficult to escape. This might explain why people in the macrobiotic community including some teachers are not immune from self righteousness!None of us know whether there is any truth in this line of thinking but if we choose to accept that our physical body, emotions and thoughts are all interlinked and influence each other (I think most of us will know this from personal experience) then our thinking will inevitably reflect our physical condition and if food is an influence on our physical condition what we put in our mouths could determine how we use our minds. In addition to this we could explore the idea that living whole foods have a spiritual energy of their own and that by consuming this energy we again may change our emotional energy resulting in different thoughts again.Now in this

particular discussion a lot of words have been used that are relative – barbaric, mutilation, inhumane, violent........ - being relative and not absolute terms we need to place them in context. Where would for example circumcision come in a list that included genocide in Rwanda, the Iraq war, dropping two atoms bombs on the civilians of Japan when one was enough, the holocaust, some of Stalin’s purges etc. If we use those words to describe circumcision what’s left to describe other events?The point being that living in a relative world we can balance out our claims and try and put them in context. The main argument against circumcision seems to be that the baby does not have a choice and it would be painful. Let’s put the natural claim to one side for now. In relative, flexible thinking how would this compare to the process of natural birth, how painful is it compared to a smack, how damaging or emotionally painful is it compared to us not letting our children

have the foods their friends are having, how upsetting is it compared to not receiving physical affection as a child and so on. These are all things that children do not have a choice over a could potentially cause pain.I have heard the same argument put forward regarding pain and trauma for suggesting it is better to give birth by C section. In the UK smacking children has been banned and I think as adults many of us might agree. However I was interested to find out from my children that a smack or a brief shout was least upsetting whereas time out or even worse a long patronising lecture were the things they hated most. I am always being reminded how foolish assumptions can be.Personally I have brought my children up in a way regarding food that they could turn round as adults and say I screwed them up. I am aware of that and I do try to get the balance between giving them what I consider to be healthy food and freedom to make their choices but it is only

my assumption that I have been close to getting that right for each one of them. I do my best but only time will tell. For me I would feel hypocritical laying into anyone else for having his or her child circumcised when for all I know I could unwittingly be doing more harm to my own children trying to help them be aware of food. Is there any karmic link or idea of poetic justice when it comes to criticising others?There is plenty of evidence regarding AIDs circumcision and Africa. Here are some links.http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/06/MNGANDJFVK1.DTL & type=printableLhttp://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0726_050726_circumcision.htmlhttp://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/28/world/africa/28africa.html?ex=1303876800 & en=ddc5294f31df4cc1 & ei=5088Let me know your thoughts on all of this. I love to have these games of mental chess!All the best,SimonOn 18/3/07 23:53, "black bear hollow" <blackbearhollowgmail> wrote: There's a huge difference in being an adult and choosing to alter yourself in whatever way and being an infant and unable to speak for yourself against being mutilated. It's not the same. It's one thing to have "preferences" and another to inhumanely brutalize infants simply because our warped society appears to think it's perfectly

normal.We're obviously in serious trouble when we attempt to equate genital mutilation & make up, eating processed foods or leg shaving.These are things all chosen by adults which is entirely their right.If adults want to alter themselves fine. Children need to be free of pain and harm until they are adults to decide for themselves. But why DO we shave, pluck eyebrows, cut hair, wax legs, get tattoos,eat processes food, and even WEAR CLOTHES. We are silly animalsaren't we? Hopefully, as we educate each other, we can grow out ofmost of that! AT least I wouldn't mind!!;)amy> > > >> Everything in the Bible is symbolic of something much deeper than the> >> silly literal. Focusing on the literal holds us back from the beauty> >> that will come from the words as you realize, all the> >> parables/stories, which are Outside representations, really represent> >> what is

WithIN US. We can choose to look withOUT, at the literal> >> things of the world, and follow, hold rituals, repeat certain words,> >> ..but it is good to make all these things happen withIN. They are all> >> stories about you, ..not other people and things. That's just my> >> understanding and what I've gathered through my experience. Of course> >> we can all choose how we want to interpret it. I am a little less> >> interested in the physical, literal, outward stuff, and more> >> interested in the spiritual, metaphorical, inward stuff, which I> >> believe helps us to bring about transmutation and true alchemy. Is> >> there a story about Abraham being willing to slaughter his son on an> >> alter, or is it a story about us, and how we need to be willing to> >> sacrifice our own carnal nature(child of the world) on the altar,>

>> which is our hearts, ..to the True God, -which only loves spiritual> >> sacrifice? Again, we all have the right to interpret as we wish.> >> > >> Blessings and hope that all will keep their minds open for theirown sake.> >> > >> amy--- > > > >>

Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.

[Guest guest]

Whatever words that would *truthfully* (honestly) describe such events. Reuse, recycle, or whatever... the point is honesty without dancing around making excuses for our own violent actions here in the US that perhaps might need to be healed HERE before addressing those in other countries.Perhaps a better evaluation might be: Why attempt to address issues on other soils when we haven't addresses our own right here in the US? Why run around attempting to save the world, but ignore our own? Maybe, just maybe, the core issue lies with taking care of & healing ourselves before taking on the issues of the rest of the world and wouldn't it be interesting if much of it lies with healing violent acts against children? Against our own right in front of us?If we use those words to describe circumcision what’s left to describe other events?

[Guest guest]

Whatever words that would *truthfully* (honestly) describe such events. Reuse, recycle, or whatever... the point is honesty without dancing around making excuses for our own violent actions here in the US that perhaps might need to be healed HERE before addressing those in other countries.Perhaps a better evaluation might be: Why attempt to address issues on other soils when we haven't addresses our own right here in the US? Why run around attempting to save the world, but ignore our own? Maybe, just maybe, the core issue lies with taking care of & healing ourselves before taking on the issues of the rest of the world and wouldn't it be interesting if much of it lies with healing violent acts against children? Against our own right in front of us?If we use those words to describe circumcision what’s left to describe other events?

[Guest guest]

Whatever words that would *truthfully* (honestly) describe such events. Reuse, recycle, or whatever... the point is honesty without dancing around making excuses for our own violent actions here in the US that perhaps might need to be healed HERE before addressing those in other countries.Perhaps a better evaluation might be: Why attempt to address issues on other soils when we haven't addresses our own right here in the US? Why run around attempting to save the world, but ignore our own? Maybe, just maybe, the core issue lies with taking care of & healing ourselves before taking on the issues of the rest of the world and wouldn't it be interesting if much of it lies with healing violent acts against children? Against our own right in front of us?If we use those words to describe circumcision what’s left to describe other events?

[Guest guest]

And here you go.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/26/news/health.php

In theory it sounds like circumcision

sounds like a great thing in terms of aids prevention in African Countries,

like 60 – 70% but to get this done is sterile conditions there is awfully

hard in having done in non sterile ones may actually further the spread of aids

more than prevent it. The studies that were done recently were done under very sterile

ones.

From:

VeganMacrobiotics [mailto:VeganMacrobiotics ] On Behalf Of purpleveg

Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 11:42

PM

To:

VeganMacrobiotics

Subject: Re:

Here it is ...the topic I've been avoiding until now!

I can't believe this!!! My man and I were having the

circ discussion

and while he agrees with me (maybe he doesn't just says he does to

shut me up? Kidding) he mentioned the piercings, tattoos, etc too

Thing is we are adults piercing or tattooing, etc we are making

decisions for ourselves, not letting someone who is supposed to

nurture us take control in that manner.

Although I used to go for electrolosis years ago and the woman told

me that a couple called to bring their 'daughter' in to have her legs

done. Ended up they had a son of 8 or younger and they wanted to

make him a girl. The woman threatened to call the police and the

couple hung up. That poor child........

About the AIDS/Africa thing, and I were talking about that last

night and he read that this isn't true that it's impossible to find

sterile conditions to perform the circ's. Shoot, ???

> >

> >> Everything in the Bible is symbolic of something much deeper

than the

> >> silly literal. Focusing on the literal holds us back from the

beauty

> >> that will come from the words as you realize, all the

> >> parables/stories, which are Outside representations, really

represent

> >> what is WithIN US. We can choose to look withOUT, at the literal

> >> things of the world, and follow, hold rituals, repeat certain

words,

> >> ..but it is good to make all these things happen withIN. They

are all

> >> stories about you, ..not other people and things. That's just my

> >> understanding and what I've gathered through my experience. Of

course

> >> we can all choose how we want to interpret it. I am a little less

> >> interested in the physical, literal, outward stuff, and more

> >> interested in the spiritual, metaphorical, inward stuff, which I

> >> believe helps us to bring about transmutation and true alchemy.

Is

> >> there a story about Abraham being willing to slaughter his son

on an

> >> alter, or is it a story about us, and how we need to be willing

to

> >> sacrifice our own carnal nature(child of the world) on the altar,

> >> which is our hearts, ..to the True God, -which only loves

spiritual

> >> sacrifice? Again, we all have the right to interpret as we wish.

> >>

> >> Blessings and hope that all will keep their minds open for their

own sake.

> >>

> >> amy---

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

And here you go.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/26/news/health.php

In theory it sounds like circumcision

sounds like a great thing in terms of aids prevention in African Countries,

like 60 – 70% but to get this done is sterile conditions there is awfully

hard in having done in non sterile ones may actually further the spread of aids

more than prevent it. The studies that were done recently were done under very sterile

ones.

From:

VeganMacrobiotics [mailto:VeganMacrobiotics ] On Behalf Of purpleveg

Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 11:42

PM

To:

VeganMacrobiotics

Subject: Re:

Here it is ...the topic I've been avoiding until now!

I can't believe this!!! My man and I were having the

circ discussion

and while he agrees with me (maybe he doesn't just says he does to

shut me up? Kidding) he mentioned the piercings, tattoos, etc too

Thing is we are adults piercing or tattooing, etc we are making

decisions for ourselves, not letting someone who is supposed to

nurture us take control in that manner.

Although I used to go for electrolosis years ago and the woman told

me that a couple called to bring their 'daughter' in to have her legs

done. Ended up they had a son of 8 or younger and they wanted to

make him a girl. The woman threatened to call the police and the

couple hung up. That poor child........

About the AIDS/Africa thing, and I were talking about that last

night and he read that this isn't true that it's impossible to find

sterile conditions to perform the circ's. Shoot, ???

> >

> >> Everything in the Bible is symbolic of something much deeper

than the

> >> silly literal. Focusing on the literal holds us back from the

beauty

> >> that will come from the words as you realize, all the

> >> parables/stories, which are Outside representations, really

represent

> >> what is WithIN US. We can choose to look withOUT, at the literal

> >> things of the world, and follow, hold rituals, repeat certain

words,

> >> ..but it is good to make all these things happen withIN. They

are all

> >> stories about you, ..not other people and things. That's just my

> >> understanding and what I've gathered through my experience. Of

course

> >> we can all choose how we want to interpret it. I am a little less

> >> interested in the physical, literal, outward stuff, and more

> >> interested in the spiritual, metaphorical, inward stuff, which I

> >> believe helps us to bring about transmutation and true alchemy.

Is

> >> there a story about Abraham being willing to slaughter his son

on an

> >> alter, or is it a story about us, and how we need to be willing

to

> >> sacrifice our own carnal nature(child of the world) on the altar,

> >> which is our hearts, ..to the True God, -which only loves

spiritual

> >> sacrifice? Again, we all have the right to interpret as we wish.

> >>

> >> Blessings and hope that all will keep their minds open for their

own sake.

> >>

> >> amy---

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Again, why address issues of smacking children in the UK when we can't seem to get past what we do to male infants in this country?As for poetic justice, it would be almost amusing, if not for being so sad, that those assuming others are "closed minded" appear themselves unable to open their minds and address what has not only happened to them, but what continues to happen right here right now, right in your own home, right next door, etc...Have you ever met a animal activists who eat meat? They rally for animal rights and the abuses of dogs & cats, yet never think about going to the market and buying meat that was brutally killed in a terrible manner. Where's the logic?Perhaps if we stopped the violence we suffer our own male infants to right here in the US right from the womb, we might better be able to address those of older children, and those in other countries? In a nut shell, I'd be willing to bet W. Bush is circumcised. My that one thought does make you wonder when living in one of, if not the most violent country in the world, eh? As for AIDS, the jury is still out as to factual evidence of circumcision helping. More so again, sex is or should be an adult issue and most AIDS can be linked to IV drug use, etc... not sex. Again, why assume? Why assume we should violate an infant as to what *might* happen to him as an adult? Is that going to address the core issue? No.It's easy for the pot to call the kettle black. It's interesting to observe that those claiming non rigidity and a free mind appear unable to address core issues, but turn a cheek to ignore the rights of infants in our own homes, yet attempt to save older children, adults, and the rest of the world. It's a nice thought, and I'm sure with beautiful intentions, though it does make me wonder that perhaps we are unable to stop domestic abuse, homelessness, war, etc... because we can't address a very important issue of violence with our males right from the womb. First things first.Wouldn't it be interesting to see circumcision/genital mutilation outlawed in the US and how future generations behave? Would we all have to eat rice for that to happen. Perhaps food is the core issue of why we do what we do to our children? The possibilities are astounding. Isn't it interesting what we label things? A woman "has a hysterectomy", but you'd "castrate" a man. If you "circumcise" a female, immediately it's "genital mutilation", yet it's perfectly fine and dandy and readily accepted, often with no thought at all to "circumcise" a male mostly with no anesthetic while tied down to a board. What are we thinking? Are we thinking?One thing macrobiotics, and eating a healthy variety has done for me, is gifted me with the ability to think clearly. This simple diet has also helped to free my mind and not only notice issues I'd never pay attention to, but attempt to illicit change and be very honest in observation without candy coating the unsavory to gain acceptance. If we truly love one another, and we truly want to heal the world, the first step is within our own homes, with our own loved ones, and most importantly, with our own innocent victims. In my mind, a better choice is to choose the way nature intended our sons to be: intact, but if you must choose circumcise/mutilate [choose your own label here], please consider doing so with anesthetic and as humanely as possible. Stand up for your baby when he can't, and love him enough to spare him the excruciating pain of tearing the membranes around his glans & cutting away his foreskin with the aide of anesthetic. First and foremost, I beg you to educate yourself, read, read, read, view videos of actual procedures, and talk to as many men as you can who are aware of this issue.Change begins with us and dealing with the core issue of what we as a nation are doing to our own. Perhaps then we can change the world.I have heard the same argument put forward regarding pain and trauma for suggesting it is better to give birth by C section. In the UK smacking children has been banned and I think as adults many of us might agree. However I was interested to find out from my children that a smack or a brief shout was least upsetting whereas time out or even worse a long patronising lecture were the things they hated most. I am always being reminded how foolish assumptions can be.

[Guest guest]

Again, why address issues of smacking children in the UK when we can't seem to get past what we do to male infants in this country?As for poetic justice, it would be almost amusing, if not for being so sad, that those assuming others are "closed minded" appear themselves unable to open their minds and address what has not only happened to them, but what continues to happen right here right now, right in your own home, right next door, etc...Have you ever met a animal activists who eat meat? They rally for animal rights and the abuses of dogs & cats, yet never think about going to the market and buying meat that was brutally killed in a terrible manner. Where's the logic?Perhaps if we stopped the violence we suffer our own male infants to right here in the US right from the womb, we might better be able to address those of older children, and those in other countries? In a nut shell, I'd be willing to bet W. Bush is circumcised. My that one thought does make you wonder when living in one of, if not the most violent country in the world, eh? As for AIDS, the jury is still out as to factual evidence of circumcision helping. More so again, sex is or should be an adult issue and most AIDS can be linked to IV drug use, etc... not sex. Again, why assume? Why assume we should violate an infant as to what *might* happen to him as an adult? Is that going to address the core issue? No.It's easy for the pot to call the kettle black. It's interesting to observe that those claiming non rigidity and a free mind appear unable to address core issues, but turn a cheek to ignore the rights of infants in our own homes, yet attempt to save older children, adults, and the rest of the world. It's a nice thought, and I'm sure with beautiful intentions, though it does make me wonder that perhaps we are unable to stop domestic abuse, homelessness, war, etc... because we can't address a very important issue of violence with our males right from the womb. First things first.Wouldn't it be interesting to see circumcision/genital mutilation outlawed in the US and how future generations behave? Would we all have to eat rice for that to happen. Perhaps food is the core issue of why we do what we do to our children? The possibilities are astounding. Isn't it interesting what we label things? A woman "has a hysterectomy", but you'd "castrate" a man. If you "circumcise" a female, immediately it's "genital mutilation", yet it's perfectly fine and dandy and readily accepted, often with no thought at all to "circumcise" a male mostly with no anesthetic while tied down to a board. What are we thinking? Are we thinking?One thing macrobiotics, and eating a healthy variety has done for me, is gifted me with the ability to think clearly. This simple diet has also helped to free my mind and not only notice issues I'd never pay attention to, but attempt to illicit change and be very honest in observation without candy coating the unsavory to gain acceptance. If we truly love one another, and we truly want to heal the world, the first step is within our own homes, with our own loved ones, and most importantly, with our own innocent victims. In my mind, a better choice is to choose the way nature intended our sons to be: intact, but if you must choose circumcise/mutilate [choose your own label here], please consider doing so with anesthetic and as humanely as possible. Stand up for your baby when he can't, and love him enough to spare him the excruciating pain of tearing the membranes around his glans & cutting away his foreskin with the aide of anesthetic. First and foremost, I beg you to educate yourself, read, read, read, view videos of actual procedures, and talk to as many men as you can who are aware of this issue.Change begins with us and dealing with the core issue of what we as a nation are doing to our own. Perhaps then we can change the world.I have heard the same argument put forward regarding pain and trauma for suggesting it is better to give birth by C section. In the UK smacking children has been banned and I think as adults many of us might agree. However I was interested to find out from my children that a smack or a brief shout was least upsetting whereas time out or even worse a long patronising lecture were the things they hated most. I am always being reminded how foolish assumptions can be.

[Guest guest]

I find your response intriguing and would like to ask why you have chosen to write so strongly about this particular subject. Is it because of some personal experience that you still feel angry about?

If you read my last message carefully I am encouraging you to find a bigger perspective on this issue. No one is ever going to be proved right or wrong here so all we are talking about are personal opinions.

Whilst you talk of healing the US you are simultaneously accusing any parents in this group who have chosen to circumcise their child of being violent to their children, mutilating them and being barbaric. In my experience this kind of approach is a recipe for fragmentation and only encourages people to take more extreme views. If we want to join together to further macrobiotics and if the environment is the biggest issue we face why use this forum to try an antagonise members with the judgemental, moralistic expression of your personal views? All that happens is that the pro circumcision and anti circumcision camps become more bigoted and find that rather than live a big life (the definition of macrobiotics) end up living a very small life as a result of an entrenched, small minded, narrow vision.

Sorry but I really can’t see the point right now but I will try and would be happy to hear more and attempt to understand your views.

All the best,

Simon

Whatever words that would *truthfully* (honestly) describe such events. 

Reuse, recycle, or whatever... the point is honesty without dancing around making excuses 

for our own violent actions here in the US that perhaps might need to be healed HERE before 

addressing those in other countries.

Perhaps a better evaluation might be: Why attempt to address issues on other soils when we haven't addresses our own right here in the US? Why run around attempting to save the world, but ignore our own? Maybe, just maybe, the core issue lies with taking care of & healing ourselves before taking on the issues of the rest of the world and wouldn't it be interesting if much of it lies with healing violent acts against children? Against our own right in front of us?

If we use those words to describe circumcision what’s left to describe other events?

[Guest guest]

Remember there are folks on this site from all over the world - Simon lives in

the UK!!

Re: Re: Here it is ...the topic I've been avoiding

until now!

>

>Again, why address issues of smacking children in the UK when we

>can't seem to get past what we do to male infants in this country?

>

>As for poetic justice, it would be almost amusing, if not for being

>so sad, that those assuming others are " closed minded " appear

>themselves unable to open their minds and address what has not only

>happened to them, but what continues to happen right here right now,

>right in your own home, right next door, etc...

>

>Have you ever met a animal activists who eat meat? They rally for

>animal rights and the abuses of dogs & cats, yet never think about

>going to the market and buying meat that was brutally killed in a

>terrible manner. Where's the logic?

>

>Perhaps if we stopped the violence we suffer our own male infants to

>right here in the US right from the womb, we might better be able to

>address those of older children, and those in other countries?

>

>In a nut shell, I'd be willing to bet W. Bush is circumcised.

>My that one thought does make you wonder when living in one of, if

>not the most violent country in the world, eh?

>

>As for AIDS, the jury is still out as to factual evidence of

>circumcision helping. More so again, sex is or should be an adult

>issue and most AIDS can be linked to IV drug use, etc... not sex.

>Again, why assume? Why assume we should violate an infant as to what

>*might* happen to him as an adult? Is that going to address the core

>issue? No.

>

>

>

>It's easy for the pot to call the kettle black. It's interesting to

>observe that those claiming non rigidity and a free mind appear

>unable to address core issues, but turn a cheek to ignore the rights

>of infants in our own homes, yet attempt to save older children,

>adults, and the rest of the world. It's a nice thought, and I'm sure

>with beautiful intentions, though it does make me wonder that perhaps

>we are unable to stop domestic abuse, homelessness, war, etc...

>because we can't address a very important issue of violence with our

>males right from the womb.

>

>First things first.

>

>Wouldn't it be interesting to see circumcision/genital mutilation

>outlawed in the US and how future generations behave? Would we all

>have to eat rice for that to happen. Perhaps food is the core issue

>of why we do what we do to our children? The possibilities are

>astounding.

>

>Isn't it interesting what we label things? A woman " has a

>hysterectomy " , but you'd " castrate " a man. If you " circumcise " a

>female, immediately it's " genital mutilation " , yet it's perfectly

>fine and dandy and readily accepted, often with no thought at all to

> " circumcise " a male mostly with no anesthetic while tied down to a

>board. What are we thinking? Are we thinking?

>

>One thing macrobiotics, and eating a healthy variety has done for me,

>is gifted me with the ability to think clearly. This simple diet has

>also helped to free my mind and not only notice issues I'd never pay

>attention to, but attempt to illicit change and be very honest in

>observation without candy coating the unsavory to gain acceptance.

>

>If we truly love one another, and we truly want to heal the world,

>the first step is within our own homes, with our own loved ones, and

>most importantly, with our own innocent victims.

>

>In my mind, a better choice is to choose the way nature intended our

>sons to be: intact, but if you must choose circumcise/mutilate

>[choose your own label here], please consider doing so with

>anesthetic and as humanely as possible. Stand up for your baby when

>he can't, and love him enough to spare him the excruciating pain of

>tearing the membranes around his glans & cutting away his foreskin

>with the aide of anesthetic. First and foremost, I beg you to educate

>yourself, read, read, read, view videos of actual procedures, and

>talk to as many men as you can who are aware of this issue.

>

>Change begins with us and dealing with the core issue of what we as a

>nation are doing to our own. Perhaps then we can change the world.

>

>

>

>

>

>> I have heard the same argument put forward regarding pain and

>> trauma for suggesting it is better to give birth by C section. In

>> the UK smacking children has been banned and I think as adults many

>> of us might agree. However I was interested to find out from my

>> children that a smack or a brief shout was least upsetting whereas

>> time out or even worse a long patronising lecture were the things

>> they hated most. I am always being reminded how foolish assumptions

>> can be.

>

Brown Waxman

www.celebrate4health.com

www.bebabywise.com

info@...

[Guest guest]

Remember there are folks on this site from all over the world - Simon lives in

the UK!!

Re: Re: Here it is ...the topic I've been avoiding

until now!

>

>Again, why address issues of smacking children in the UK when we

>can't seem to get past what we do to male infants in this country?

>

>As for poetic justice, it would be almost amusing, if not for being

>so sad, that those assuming others are " closed minded " appear

>themselves unable to open their minds and address what has not only

>happened to them, but what continues to happen right here right now,

>right in your own home, right next door, etc...

>

>Have you ever met a animal activists who eat meat? They rally for

>animal rights and the abuses of dogs & cats, yet never think about

>going to the market and buying meat that was brutally killed in a

>terrible manner. Where's the logic?

>

>Perhaps if we stopped the violence we suffer our own male infants to

>right here in the US right from the womb, we might better be able to

>address those of older children, and those in other countries?

>

>In a nut shell, I'd be willing to bet W. Bush is circumcised.

>My that one thought does make you wonder when living in one of, if

>not the most violent country in the world, eh?

>

>As for AIDS, the jury is still out as to factual evidence of

>circumcision helping. More so again, sex is or should be an adult

>issue and most AIDS can be linked to IV drug use, etc... not sex.

>Again, why assume? Why assume we should violate an infant as to what

>*might* happen to him as an adult? Is that going to address the core

>issue? No.

>

>

>

>It's easy for the pot to call the kettle black. It's interesting to

>observe that those claiming non rigidity and a free mind appear

>unable to address core issues, but turn a cheek to ignore the rights

>of infants in our own homes, yet attempt to save older children,

>adults, and the rest of the world. It's a nice thought, and I'm sure

>with beautiful intentions, though it does make me wonder that perhaps

>we are unable to stop domestic abuse, homelessness, war, etc...

>because we can't address a very important issue of violence with our

>males right from the womb.

>

>First things first.

>

>Wouldn't it be interesting to see circumcision/genital mutilation

>outlawed in the US and how future generations behave? Would we all

>have to eat rice for that to happen. Perhaps food is the core issue

>of why we do what we do to our children? The possibilities are

>astounding.

>

>Isn't it interesting what we label things? A woman " has a

>hysterectomy " , but you'd " castrate " a man. If you " circumcise " a

>female, immediately it's " genital mutilation " , yet it's perfectly

>fine and dandy and readily accepted, often with no thought at all to

> " circumcise " a male mostly with no anesthetic while tied down to a

>board. What are we thinking? Are we thinking?

>

>One thing macrobiotics, and eating a healthy variety has done for me,

>is gifted me with the ability to think clearly. This simple diet has

>also helped to free my mind and not only notice issues I'd never pay

>attention to, but attempt to illicit change and be very honest in

>observation without candy coating the unsavory to gain acceptance.

>

>If we truly love one another, and we truly want to heal the world,

>the first step is within our own homes, with our own loved ones, and

>most importantly, with our own innocent victims.

>

>In my mind, a better choice is to choose the way nature intended our

>sons to be: intact, but if you must choose circumcise/mutilate

>[choose your own label here], please consider doing so with

>anesthetic and as humanely as possible. Stand up for your baby when

>he can't, and love him enough to spare him the excruciating pain of

>tearing the membranes around his glans & cutting away his foreskin

>with the aide of anesthetic. First and foremost, I beg you to educate

>yourself, read, read, read, view videos of actual procedures, and

>talk to as many men as you can who are aware of this issue.

>

>Change begins with us and dealing with the core issue of what we as a

>nation are doing to our own. Perhaps then we can change the world.

>

>

>

>

>

>> I have heard the same argument put forward regarding pain and

>> trauma for suggesting it is better to give birth by C section. In

>> the UK smacking children has been banned and I think as adults many

>> of us might agree. However I was interested to find out from my

>> children that a smack or a brief shout was least upsetting whereas

>> time out or even worse a long patronising lecture were the things

>> they hated most. I am always being reminded how foolish assumptions

>> can be.

>

Brown Waxman

www.celebrate4health.com

www.bebabywise.com

info@...

[Guest guest]

Neither anger or personal experience, merely observation and wondering why we human beings attempt to passionately focus on other issues, but refuse to address our own. This certainly isn't the only issue available for  discussion, but it certainly is an interesting one. It's interesting to note, that there is a difference in opinion with men who have been circumcised/mutilated verses those who have not. How can one judge what you've never experienced? Only with imagination.It doesn't take a lot of imagination for me, even as a woman, to imagine my skin, even a small piece, being cut away. That goes for any part of my body. I had my children at home, naturally without c-sections, drugs, etc... I've experienced many forms of pain. I'm an adult. As an adult, I'd not want any skin from my body cut away and would fear that pain. I'm sure most here would probably feel the same way. Why then is it ok to tolerate infant's genitalia being cut in this country? My point is that perhaps what we do to our children has a great effect on how we behave as a nation.Perhaps what this country consumes for food plays a leading role in the whole picture too.As for your parents, they probably did what they thought was best at the time. I addressed this subject in an earlier post which is why, now, in this day & age, we need to educate ourselves and perhaps make different choices and choose to protect our children.Maybe, we can begin to see clearly, as a whole, that we need to not cut infants. Why do you think circumcision/mutilation is ok? Do you feel it's ok to cut an infants foreskin off without the aide of a painkiller? If so, it it because you are circumcised and have no idea what it's like to have a foreskin? I'm not attempting to illicit contempt here, just thought and introspection. Perhaps change.I find your response intriguing and would like to ask why you have chosen to write so strongly about this particular subject. Is it because of some personal experience that you still feel angry about?If you read my last message carefully I am encouraging you to find a bigger perspective on this issue. No one is ever going to be proved right or wrong here so all we are talking about are personal opinions.

[Guest guest]

Neither anger or personal experience, merely observation and wondering why we human beings attempt to passionately focus on other issues, but refuse to address our own. This certainly isn't the only issue available for  discussion, but it certainly is an interesting one. It's interesting to note, that there is a difference in opinion with men who have been circumcised/mutilated verses those who have not. How can one judge what you've never experienced? Only with imagination.It doesn't take a lot of imagination for me, even as a woman, to imagine my skin, even a small piece, being cut away. That goes for any part of my body. I had my children at home, naturally without c-sections, drugs, etc... I've experienced many forms of pain. I'm an adult. As an adult, I'd not want any skin from my body cut away and would fear that pain. I'm sure most here would probably feel the same way. Why then is it ok to tolerate infant's genitalia being cut in this country? My point is that perhaps what we do to our children has a great effect on how we behave as a nation.Perhaps what this country consumes for food plays a leading role in the whole picture too.As for your parents, they probably did what they thought was best at the time. I addressed this subject in an earlier post which is why, now, in this day & age, we need to educate ourselves and perhaps make different choices and choose to protect our children.Maybe, we can begin to see clearly, as a whole, that we need to not cut infants. Why do you think circumcision/mutilation is ok? Do you feel it's ok to cut an infants foreskin off without the aide of a painkiller? If so, it it because you are circumcised and have no idea what it's like to have a foreskin? I'm not attempting to illicit contempt here, just thought and introspection. Perhaps change.I find your response intriguing and would like to ask why you have chosen to write so strongly about this particular subject. Is it because of some personal experience that you still feel angry about?If you read my last message carefully I am encouraging you to find a bigger perspective on this issue. No one is ever going to be proved right or wrong here so all we are talking about are personal opinions.

[Guest guest]

You make a good point about the other atrocities in life. The good

thing about language is there are always other words. In this

society which is focused on negativity there are always other words

to use. The fact remains that although those actions you mentioned

ARE more damaging to a group of people why would it mean that circ is

NOT barbaric?

Barbarian " is a pejorative term for an uncivilized, uncultured

person, either in a general reference to a member of a nation or

ethnos perceived as having an inferior level of civilization, or in

an individual reference to a brutal, cruel, insensitive person whose

behaviour is unacceptable in the purportedly civilized society of the

speaker. While the latter sense is always pejorative, the former one

has not invariably been so

Rape and molestation may not seem as bad as those wars either, does

it mean we should go for it?

Klara mentioned that most women she knows walk out of the room when

their son was circ'd. She said that most found it impossible to

watch (paraphrasing here Klara.........) These women couldn't bear

to watch but gave their child (one who was given to them to love,

cherish and guard) to someone to endure this.

We are not in Africa therefore such claims don't show much merit to

me. ly if they kept their privates in their pants AIDS wouldn't

be spread through sex at such great volume either. I'm not saying

AIDS is not a tragedy....... My best friend, a girl I grew up with

died from AIDS I know the suffering of such a disease. But

abstinence does have its points too. I read many stories where men

were spreading AIDS to young women because it was believed if they

had sex with virgins it wasn't transmitable.

Even if what you say is true (I can find articles and studies that

show flesh consumption is healthy) there are better ways to control

AIDS rather than slice off part of millions of boys penis' to make

sure they are not the ones to spread AIDS later on in life. At what

risk do we hurt society?

Much love,

Reg

> >>>> > >

> >>>>> > >> Everything in the Bible is symbolic of something much

deeper than the

> >>>>> > >> silly literal. Focusing on the literal holds us back

from the beauty

> >>>>> > >> that will come from the words as you realize, all the

> >>>>> > >> parables/stories, which are Outside representations,

really represent

> >>>>> > >> what is WithIN US. We can choose to look withOUT, at the

literal

> >>>>> > >> things of the world, and follow, hold rituals, repeat

certain words,

> >>>>> > >> ..but it is good to make all these things happen withIN.

They are all

> >>>>> > >> stories about you, ..not other people and things. That's

just my

> >>>>> > >> understanding and what I've gathered through my

experience. Of course

> >>>>> > >> we can all choose how we want to interpret it. I am a

little less

> >>>>> > >> interested in the physical, literal, outward stuff, and

more

> >>>>> > >> interested in the spiritual, metaphorical, inward stuff,

which I

> >>>>> > >> believe helps us to bring about transmutation and true

alchemy. Is

> >>>>> > >> there a story about Abraham being willing to slaughter

his son on an

> >>>>> > >> alter, or is it a story about us, and how we need to be

willing to

> >>>>> > >> sacrifice our own carnal nature(child of the world) on

the altar,

> >>>>> > >> which is our hearts, ..to the True God, -which only

loves spiritual

> >>>>> > >> sacrifice? Again, we all have the right to interpret as

we wish.

> >>>>> > >>

> >>>>> > >> Blessings and hope that all will keep their minds open

for their

> >> own sake.

> >>>>> > >>

> >>>>> > >> amy---

> >>>> > >

> >>>> > >

> >>> >

> >>

> >

> >

> >

>