Re: spring 2004 wise traditions mag - disappointed with a few comments

[Guest guest]

irene, that's awful that you had so much trouble. i still would say

that it's not all that common. sure, it happens, but not to the

extent many women believe. many women (most who probably did not go

to the lengths you did to try and breastfeed) give " not enough milk "

as a reason when it's just that they have decided not to put the

effort out.

erica z

> >Hi Lynn,

> >

> >For adoptive parents, gay parents, infected/sick mothers and

mothers who

> >just can't produce enough milk, the NT formula has been a

godsend. I may be

> >wrong but I don't think mothers in these categories can be

called " truly

> >rare " but people who call us can't be considered a random

sample. Perhaps

> >uncommon would be a better term, but this is semantics. As we

all turn the

> >nutritional status of this country around hopefully we'll get to

where all

> >mothers will have clean, rich breast milk and plenty of it.

> >

> >As for that perception by some in the mothering community of

WAPF, it sounds

> >like this is a good opportunity for building bridges across

differences

> >which should not be difficult since in most respects the camps

are on the

> >same page as proponents of natural wisdom around childbirth and

rearing!

> >

> >Thanks for your sharing,

> >

> >Christapher

> >

> >

> > Re: spring 2004 wise traditions mag - disappointed

with a few

> >comments

> >

> > > , and can say that in the past two years we have seen countless

> > > mothers turn to the NT formula and be amazed at the results

when for

> > > any one

> > > of a number of good reasons they could not breastfeed.

> >

> >Sure, the WAPF formula is much to be admired and promoted for

those

> >(truly rare) occasions when women cannot breastfeed. And I had to

wean

> >one of mine when I had my heart attack, so I've used formula too.

> >(Pre-WAPF, but she was old enough that her formula days were

brief,

> >luckily.) I'm not arguing about whether WAPF-style formula is

better

> >than commercial formula. I'm arguing about the way WAPF presents

this

> >information.

> >

> >I've answered the other arguments put forth here elsewhere.

> >

> > > I don't think WAPF is out there actively suggesting that

> > > most women should be concerned about whether their milk is

adequate.

> >

> >Maybe so but this is how they are perceived by many influential

people

> >in the mothering community. Sometimes it seems very much that

WAPF gets

> >its mouth in gear prematurely. It could use some advice on

effective

> >communication.

> >

> >Lynn S.

> >

> >------

> >Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

> >http://www.siprelle.com/

> >http://www.thenewhomemaker.com/

> >http://www.democracyfororegon.com/

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

>>> many women (most who probably did not go

to the lengths you did to try and breastfeed) give " not enough milk "

as a reason when it's just that they have decided not to put the

effort out.<<<

Or just don't know how to increase their supply.

Cheers,

Tas'.

[Guest guest]

> ...this is simply not true. studies have shown that nutrition

> composition of breastmilk is identical in women across the board

> despite their own diet, be it health conscious or malnourished...

>

>

> I don't know about 'identical', but I learnt that the baby gets first

priority on whatever nutrients there are. So if the mother's diet doesn't

have enough nutrients for both of them, the baby can remain reasonably

healthy while the mother becomes malnourished.

>

> Cheers,

> Tas'.

Baby does get first priority at least with DHA and omega 3s according to

Fran Mc Cullough in The Good Fat Cookbook and my experience with our second

child 16 years ago, pre any nutrition research. Pg. 43 " the fetus will steal

the mother's DHA if Mom's diet is deficient. And post partum depression is

highly correlated with DHA depletion. " Pg. 49 " Bruce Fife N.D. offers a way

to tell if you're getting too much omega 3 , if you notice new liver spots ,

those dark patches that turn up on skin as you age, that's an indication

your omega 3 is out of balance, which he thinks can lead to too many free

radicals circulating in the body ( omega 3s are also polyunsaturated , as

fragile as all the other oils in this group and as prone to free radical

development). Obviously, if you notice new bruises your omega 3 level is too

high. " During pregnancy I got liver spots on my right lower back, anxiety

followed by depression 10 months later. She bruised very easily up until she

went to school. Still has periods of bruising easily. When she was younger

thought it to be a C or bioflavinoid deficiency.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

eggzactly!

At 02:58 AM 6/18/2004, you wrote:

>Yeah, and the USDA's studies show that the same goes for plants and

>the soil they're raised in. LOL..

>

>Chris

[Guest guest]

I also craved milk when I was nursing and I did eat and drink in huge

amounts. I am also not thin by any stretch. I think my issue was hormonal.

I went from having only about half as much milk as my son needed to almost

none at 6 months when my period returned. At that point there was nothing I

could do to get my milk to come back. So I pumped what little I had,

because actually nursing would just frustrate my baby. I gave him the ounce

or so of breast milk in a bottle and the rest was NT formula. At 9 months I

was done.

From my informal polling, not having enough breast milk is (sadly) not

uncommon.

Irene

At 04:07 AM 6/18/04, you wrote:

>Irene,

>

>did you try eating and drinking in huge amounts?

>

>I'm a big gal and I'm sorry to tell you i produced copious milk but i was

>hungry and thirsty all the time so i was constantly eating and drinking

>(mostly skim milk; i always hated milk growing up but when i was nursing

>i was craving it; i hated whole milk but loved skim milk. i know...).

>

>but i knew thin women who couldn't produce enough milk.

>

>my simple theory is that if you don't eat and drink enough, maybe in

>copious amounts, you won't be able to have sufficient output. sorta

>like, and please excuse this analogy, if you want to pee, you have to

>drink a lot.

>

>I'm sorry you had such a difficult time.

>

>maybe copious milk production is a benefit of obesity? i have no idea.

>

>and i may be completely and utterly wrong about this. please forgive me

>if i am. :-)

>

>laura

>

>On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:37:58 -0700 Irene Musiol <irene@...> writes:

>Women who cannot produce enough breast milk are unfortunately not " truly

>rare " . I know at least half a dozen myself included. I know for myself, I

>

>tried everything to increase my breastmilk including homeopathy, herbs,

>brewers yeast, beer, pumping, nothing made more than a slight difference.

>Irene

>

>At 02:17 PM 6/17/04, you wrote:

> >Hi Lynn,

> >

> >For adoptive parents, gay parents, infected/sick mothers and mothers who

> >just can't produce enough milk, the NT formula has been a godsend. I

>may be

> >wrong but I don't think mothers in these categories can be called " truly

> >rare " but people who call us can't be considered a random sample.

>Perhaps

> >uncommon would be a better term, but this is semantics. As we all turn

>the

> >nutritional status of this country around hopefully we'll get to where

>all

> >mothers will have clean, rich breast milk and plenty of it.

> >

> >As for that perception by some in the mothering community of WAPF, it

>sounds

> >like this is a good opportunity for building bridges across differences

> >which should not be difficult since in most respects the camps are on

>the

> >same page as proponents of natural wisdom around childbirth and rearing!

> >

> >Thanks for your sharing,

> >

> >Christapher

> >

> >

> > Re: spring 2004 wise traditions mag - disappointed with a

>few

> >comments

> >

> > > , and can say that in the past two years we have seen countless

> > > mothers turn to the NT formula and be amazed at the results when for

> > > any one

> > > of a number of good reasons they could not breastfeed.

> >

> >Sure, the WAPF formula is much to be admired and promoted for those

> >(truly rare) occasions when women cannot breastfeed. And I had to wean

> >one of mine when I had my heart attack, so I've used formula too.

> >(Pre-WAPF, but she was old enough that her formula days were brief,

> >luckily.) I'm not arguing about whether WAPF-style formula is better

> >than commercial formula. I'm arguing about the way WAPF presents this

> >information.

> >

> >I've answered the other arguments put forth here elsewhere.

> >

> > > I don't think WAPF is out there actively suggesting that

> > > most women should be concerned about whether their milk is adequate.

> >

> >Maybe so but this is how they are perceived by many influential people

> >in the mothering community. Sometimes it seems very much that WAPF gets

> >its mouth in gear prematurely. It could use some advice on effective

> >communication.

> >

> >Lynn S.

> >

> >------

> >Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

> >http://www.siprelle.com/

> >http://www.thenewhomemaker.com/

> >http://www.democracyfororegon.com/

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

As far as I could find out at the time, you cant get supplementation of

prolactin. I couldn't ever get and explanation as to why. But I was able to

get oxytocin from a compounding pharmacy. It didn't help at all and was

very expensive.

Irene

At 05:34 AM 6/18/04, you wrote:

>...did you try eating and drinking in huge amounts?

>

>I'm a big gal and I'm sorry to tell you i produced copious milk ... my

>simple theory is that if you don't eat and drink enough, maybe in copious

>amounts, you won't be able to have sufficient output...

>

>

>I don't know how much that has to do with it, but I know a major factor is

>whether you produce enough of the two necessary hormones; prolactin and

>oxytocin. Try this:

>

>http://www.bpni.org/cgi1/production.asp

>

>Cheers,

>Tas'.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Actually I know at leat two who did. The others I didn't ask. I think it is

much more common than people expect. Women just don't talk about it. The

only reason I know so many women who had trouble breast feeding is because

I talked about it when I was having trouble. I would hear, yeah I had

trouble too. Now that I am not breast feeding the subject doesn't come up.

I was also not inclined to discuss it around my la leche friends. It was

always too awkward.

Irene

At 06:12 AM 6/18/04, you wrote:

>irene, that's awful that you had so much trouble. i still would say

>that it's not all that common. sure, it happens, but not to the

>extent many women believe. many women (most who probably did not go

>to the lengths you did to try and breastfeed) give " not enough milk "

>as a reason when it's just that they have decided not to put the

>effort out.

>

>

>erica z

>

>

> > >Hi Lynn,

> > >

> > >For adoptive parents, gay parents, infected/sick mothers and

>mothers who

> > >just can't produce enough milk, the NT formula has been a

>godsend. I may be

> > >wrong but I don't think mothers in these categories can be

>called " truly

> > >rare " but people who call us can't be considered a random

>sample. Perhaps

> > >uncommon would be a better term, but this is semantics. As we

>all turn the

> > >nutritional status of this country around hopefully we'll get to

>where all

> > >mothers will have clean, rich breast milk and plenty of it.

> > >

> > >As for that perception by some in the mothering community of

>WAPF, it sounds

> > >like this is a good opportunity for building bridges across

>differences

> > >which should not be difficult since in most respects the camps

>are on the

> > >same page as proponents of natural wisdom around childbirth and

>rearing!

> > >

> > >Thanks for your sharing,

> > >

> > >Christapher

> > >

> > >

> > > Re: spring 2004 wise traditions mag - disappointed

>with a few

> > >comments

> > >

> > > > , and can say that in the past two years we have seen countless

> > > > mothers turn to the NT formula and be amazed at the results

>when for

> > > > any one

> > > > of a number of good reasons they could not breastfeed.

> > >

> > >Sure, the WAPF formula is much to be admired and promoted for

>those

> > >(truly rare) occasions when women cannot breastfeed. And I had to

>wean

> > >one of mine when I had my heart attack, so I've used formula too.

> > >(Pre-WAPF, but she was old enough that her formula days were

>brief,

> > >luckily.) I'm not arguing about whether WAPF-style formula is

>better

> > >than commercial formula. I'm arguing about the way WAPF presents

>this

> > >information.

> > >

> > >I've answered the other arguments put forth here elsewhere.

> > >

> > > > I don't think WAPF is out there actively suggesting that

> > > > most women should be concerned about whether their milk is

>adequate.

> > >

> > >Maybe so but this is how they are perceived by many influential

>people

> > >in the mothering community. Sometimes it seems very much that

>WAPF gets

> > >its mouth in gear prematurely. It could use some advice on

>effective

> > >communication.

> > >

> > >Lynn S.

> > >

> > >------

> > >Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

> > >http://www.siprelle.com/

> > >http://www.thenewhomemaker.com/

> > >http://www.democracyfororegon.com/

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

You know what, this implies that if they knew how to increase their supply

they would be able to. I am not sure you can assume that. I haven't thought

about it before this dicussion but I have not met one person who was able

to increase their supply if they didn't have enough milk. I went to La

Leche meetings for a while and there was a woman there who was having

trouble producing enough breast milk. She was getting all sorts of advice

on how to increase her supply. I missed the next couple of meetings because

I had my son a few weeks later. I never saw her again so I don't know if

she was ever successful. However for the women who did ordinarily have an

adequate supply, if they had a temporary problem, either not producing

quite enough or a sudden increase in demand, they did seem to be able to

increase their supply using the techniques they mentioned.

Although it might in fact sometimes happen that women who just don't have

enough milk can increase their supply, but I suspect that it is not very

common. The more I think about it, the more I remember people telling me

their own tales of woe.

Irene

At 06:34 AM 6/18/04, you wrote:

>Or just don't know how to increase their supply.

>

>Cheers,

>Tas'.

[Guest guest]

Hey,

it's an opinion, but I do think homosexuality could be caused by food.

Or better: It wouldn't surprise me at all if it did.

Hehe, you can become a grandparent whether or not your children are

gay, the parents of your grandchildren just might not be in love with

each other, but that's no different to any other parents...

CU Anja (who would prefer to become a grandmother without having to be

a mother first )

> hi all,

> just wondering what those who have seen this latest issue of wise

> traditions thought of it.

> i was especially disappointed by the comments in response to a

> reader's letter regarding homosexuality and diet. in a nutshell, the

> reader wondered if the WAPF's position on homosexuality is that it

> can be a result of malnourishment or improper food choices.

> here's what the response said (in part):

> " ...there is also no doubt that a diet of imitation foods can

> disrupt the hormonal development of the growing child, as

> demonstrated by the studies of Pottenger and many others, resulting

> in same-sex orientation that would not otherwise have occurred.

> Chief culprits are margarine, MSG (which causes injury to the

> hypothalamus) and soy formula (which floods the infant's bloodstream

> with estrogens). We believe that it is important to provide this

> information to prospective parents who also want to be grandparents. "

> erica z

[Guest guest]

the twofold problem with this is that women who are having trouble making

enough milk are not in a vacuum, and the suggestions that la leche makes

are politically motivated. those women might be vegetarians, they might be

celiacs who are undiagnosed, there might be a zillion nutritional reasons

that they're not making enough milk. la leche's suggestions won't go very

far to fix the symptoms if they don't fix the nutritional root cause.

the difficulty is that la leche wants as many people to breast feed as

possible - a noble thing! but we here know that changing your nutrition in

a serious way is hard. even we, completely committed, slip - and la leche

can't teach them everything, so they just stick to breastfeeding. sure,

there are OTHER benefits to breastfeeding and that's great, and la leche is

content to get whatever benefits it can.

it would be better, however, if they were honest, and explained garbage in,

garbage out. i have literature from lll that actually says " there is no

reason to change your diet to breastfeed " (and goes on to say that your

body will make the perfect milk.) it meets their need to encourage, but it

isn't actually true.

so difficult, when good goals are at cross purposes!

-katja

At 12:11 PM 6/18/2004, you wrote:

>You know what, this implies that if they knew how to increase their supply

>they would be able to. I am not sure you can assume that. I haven't thought

>about it before this dicussion but I have not met one person who was able

>to increase their supply if they didn't have enough milk. I went to La

>Leche meetings for a while and there was a woman there who was having

>trouble producing enough breast milk. She was getting all sorts of advice

>on how to increase her supply. I missed the next couple of meetings because

>I had my son a few weeks later. I never saw her again so I don't know if

>she was ever successful. However for the women who did ordinarily have an

>adequate supply, if they had a temporary problem, either not producing

>quite enough or a sudden increase in demand, they did seem to be able to

>increase their supply using the techniques they mentioned.

>

>Although it might in fact sometimes happen that women who just don't have

>enough milk can increase their supply, but I suspect that it is not very

>common. The more I think about it, the more I remember people telling me

>their own tales of woe.

>

>Irene

>

>

>At 06:34 AM 6/18/04, you wrote:

> >Or just don't know how to increase their supply.

> >

> >Cheers,

> >Tas'.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree. I also think that La Lache does women a disservice when they tell

people that being unable to breastfeed is rare. It leave people who have

the problem unprepared, as I was, to deal with it. I too wish that they

were a bit more honest. Although, I don't know much of the problem is diet

and how much is other things. I was NT long before I was pregnant. I

suspect my problem wasn't diet. But I agree that there are lots and lots of

reasons women have trouble breast feeding and no one is really addressing

the issue. I suspect it is a can of worms including diet but also

environmental toxins that screw up hormone production.

Irene

At 09:24 AM 6/18/04, you wrote:

>the twofold problem with this is that women who are having trouble making

>enough milk are not in a vacuum, and the suggestions that la leche makes

>are politically motivated. those women might be vegetarians, they might be

>celiacs who are undiagnosed, there might be a zillion nutritional reasons

>that they're not making enough milk. la leche's suggestions won't go very

>far to fix the symptoms if they don't fix the nutritional root cause.

>

>the difficulty is that la leche wants as many people to breast feed as

>possible - a noble thing! but we here know that changing your nutrition in

>a serious way is hard. even we, completely committed, slip - and la leche

>can't teach them everything, so they just stick to breastfeeding. sure,

>there are OTHER benefits to breastfeeding and that's great, and la leche is

>content to get whatever benefits it can.

>

>it would be better, however, if they were honest, and explained garbage in,

>garbage out. i have literature from lll that actually says " there is no

>reason to change your diet to breastfeed " (and goes on to say that your

>body will make the perfect milk.) it meets their need to encourage, but it

>isn't actually true.

>

>so difficult, when good goals are at cross purposes!

>-katja

>

>At 12:11 PM 6/18/2004, you wrote:

> >You know what, this implies that if they knew how to increase their supply

> >they would be able to. I am not sure you can assume that. I haven't thought

> >about it before this dicussion but I have not met one person who was able

> >to increase their supply if they didn't have enough milk. I went to La

> >Leche meetings for a while and there was a woman there who was having

> >trouble producing enough breast milk. She was getting all sorts of advice

> >on how to increase her supply. I missed the next couple of meetings because

> >I had my son a few weeks later. I never saw her again so I don't know if

> >she was ever successful. However for the women who did ordinarily have an

> >adequate supply, if they had a temporary problem, either not producing

> >quite enough or a sudden increase in demand, they did seem to be able to

> >increase their supply using the techniques they mentioned.

> >

> >Although it might in fact sometimes happen that women who just don't have

> >enough milk can increase their supply, but I suspect that it is not very

> >common. The more I think about it, the more I remember people telling me

> >their own tales of woe.

> >

> >Irene

> >

> >

> >At 06:34 AM 6/18/04, you wrote:

> > >Or just don't know how to increase their supply.

> > >

> > >Cheers,

> > >Tas'.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> All this is saying is that the NT prescription is not of much

> practical use, which is much, much, much different from saying that

> it is " ridiculous, " conflicts with research, and is a reason to

> ignore other WAPF recommendations.

Did I say it was a reason to ignore other recommendations? I said it

was hard to get other people to take them seriously, which results in

ignored recommendations.

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com/

http://www.thenewhomemaker.com/

http://www.democracyfororegon.com/

[Guest guest]

> I'm a big gal and I'm sorry to tell you i produced copious milk ...

Yeah, me too; with my second I could have opened a dairy! I had enough

for triplets, it was almost embarrassing.

On the " truly rare " comment: I should have said " very uncommon. " I just

get irked by women who say, " Oh, I couldn't breastfeed, " when in

reality they wanted to use formula. Not saying anyone here has done

that, just sayin'.

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com/

http://www.thenewhomemaker.com/

http://www.democracyfororegon.com/

[Guest guest]

> the twofold problem with this is that women who are having trouble

> making

> enough milk are not in a vacuum

One other point about " not enough milk " that I'm not saying applies to

anyone here, again, just sayin' based on what I hear from other women.

Often women get told they're not making enough milk because their

children are thinner than formula-fed babies, ipso facto they're not

making enough milk. But if the baby is happy and hydrated, it's getting

enough milk. I can't tell you how many moms I've had to help through

this doctor-induced anxiety over the size of their babies. (The babies

were and are fine.)

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com/

http://www.thenewhomemaker.com/

http://www.democracyfororegon.com/

[Guest guest]

> when i was pregnant and then nursing, my brain started to fade. i

could

> FEEL IT. and other moms said the same thing.

>

> isn't this from the baby sucking those healthy fats, the little i

had,

> right from my system, and thus from my brain?

Actually, I think this is attributable to hormone activity,

particularly the nursing part. I too felt this incredible fog in my

brain when I was pregnant--and it reminded me of the same mental fog

I had when I was on birth control pills years ago! I think

heightened levels of hormones could certainly do this.

I also remember our midwife telling us about how being a sexually

active nursing mom could present challenges--for instance, you're

getting into a groove with hubbie or your partner, *those* hormones

are in action, and then nursling wakes up and needs the breast. All

of a sudden a different set of hormones kicks in, overriding the

others--she said it was incredibly hard for her to get back into the

mood after that, if the nursing session didn't just make her fall

asleep!

For me personally, when I was nursing I loved that " mellow fog " that

I operated in most of the time, but found it kinda scary when I was

driving! Also, the large quantity of things like prolactin/relaxin

in my system meant that my asthma was largely abated because my

bronchials were relaxed too!

> i can't believe all breast milk is the same, ether.

Yeah, I don't buy it. The breast milk of a mom eating well versus

one eating all meals at Mcs and drinking only pepsi sweetened

with nutrasweet will be different. And since we store so much stuff

in our fats that our sucked out of us during nursing, diet before

and during pregnancy also makes a difference.

I know that there are women who have difficulties nursing, for a

variety of reasons. I think it's important for a woman to be very

clear about who is telling us this is the case, and why. I

personally was told by a lactation consultant I wasn't producing

enough milk and that my daughter wouldn't thrive unless I pumped on

each side 10 minutes after each feeding. My midwife nearly choked

when she heard this and said, " Yeah that's great if you're trying to

sustain a family of 10 through a bad Siberian winter! "

The science of diagnosing a woman as unable to produce enough milk,

etc. is very flimsy in my opinion, especially since we produce

different amounts of milk at different times of day--I chose to

disregard the advice of that lactation consultant, and instead

counted diaper output of my child. She always produced copious

quantities of wet and poopy diapers--and I also tried to make sure I

drank tons of water. My daughter also let me know that I was not

relaxed enough (one of those emotional barriers I had to ease of

nursing!) because at 6 months of age she would only nurse if I laid

down. I was never able to resolve that aspect of my character, I am

fairly high strung and *still* have a hard time relaxing.

Today my daughter is 5, so evidently I produced enough milk!

My heart goes out to women who would like to nurse but can't, for

whatever reason, especially if they are encountering judgement of

avid breastfeeding moms. I have know *many* women in this

situation, who have complained about the judgement they receive from

pro-breastfeeding moms.

I think history is rich with cultural traditions of wet nurses, and

there is a *reason* for that. I also think there are cultural

examples of use of other animals for providing milk (I seem to

remember seeing some old picture of a toddler nursing on a goat).

Many cultures share nursing among a tribe or family of women--an

idea which makes incredible sense as then no one woman is ever

exhausted by trying to meet all the emotional and nutritional needs

of infants, toddlers, and children at one time!

Leann

[Guest guest]

I failed to be able to with my first baby. He was SO hungry and got

so frustrated trying to nurse that he started to refuse. And I

cried loads considering I was told every woman could do it. I felt

like SUCH a failure. What I didn't find out until I got preggers

with the next one is that I have inverted nipples and I needed to

use those specialty things months before birth to try to correct the

situation if I was going to successfully breastfeed. DD took to

nursing like a duck to water. Only problem we had is that she

wanted to nurse every 90 minutes round the clock. When she was 2

months old, we had a friend kill himself and the stress and grief

dried me up. We tried everything to get the supply up, herbs,

pumping every hour... nothing worked, and she was failing to thrive

so we had to switch her to the bottle too. Again, I bawled.

I have to agree that telling women that it's rare to be unable is

not just a disservice, it can be outright cruel when you happen to

be one of those women.

--- In , Irene Musiol <irene@q...>

wrote:

> I agree. I also think that La Lache does women a disservice when

they tell

> people that being unable to breastfeed is rare. It leave people

who have

> the problem unprepared, as I was, to deal with it. I too wish that

they

> were a bit more honest. Although, I don't know much of the problem

is diet

> and how much is other things. I was NT long before I was pregnant.

I

> suspect my problem wasn't diet. But I agree that there are lots

and lots of

> reasons women have trouble breast feeding and no one is really

addressing

> the issue. I suspect it is a can of worms including diet but also

> environmental toxins that screw up hormone production.

>

> Irene

[Guest guest]

mine too but what one of the Lynns said was really right: lots of women

just want to use it as an excuse to get past the guilt of early weaning or

not breast feeding at all.

ah, such a simple issue. <wry>

-katja

At 01:40 PM 6/18/2004, you wrote:

>My heart goes out to women who would like to nurse but can't, for

>whatever reason, especially if they are encountering judgement of

>avid breastfeeding moms. I have know *many* women in this

>situation, who have complained about the judgement they receive from

>pro-breastfeeding moms.

[Guest guest]

How do you know that is what they want? Just curious. That is certainly not

what I wanted. That is not the feeling that I got talking to most other

women who were not able to.

Irene

At 10:46 AM 6/18/04, you wrote:

>mine too but what one of the Lynns said was really right: lots of women

>just want to use it as an excuse to get past the guilt of early weaning or

>not breast feeding at all.

[Guest guest]

I dunno, I have a couple of friends who just had babies, and for

their showers, when asked, if they were bottle or breast feeding the

responses were " Oh bottle. It's so much easier and less hassle! "

> >mine too but what one of the Lynns said was really right: lots of

women

> >just want to use it as an excuse to get past the guilt of early

weaning or

> >not breast feeding at all.

[Guest guest]

nono. i've found you can really tell. when a woman is sad that they can't

make enough milk, ya know? that's obvious. i do my best to help! but when a

woman is completely flippant about it, pushing a happy meal at her

three-year-old and bragging " oh i couldn't make enough milk so we used

formula and my brat's just fine " ...those women i question, in my mind.

it's not mine to judge, but i try to help who i can and do my best to

detach myself from those who are not interested in improvement. it's less

painful that way!

-katja

At 02:03 PM 6/18/2004, you wrote:

>How do you know that is what they want? Just curious. That is certainly not

>what I wanted. That is not the feeling that I got talking to most other

>women who were not able to.

>Irene

>

>At 10:46 AM 6/18/04, you wrote:

> >mine too but what one of the Lynns said was really right: lots of women

> >just want to use it as an excuse to get past the guilt of early weaning or

> >not breast feeding at all.

[Guest guest]

> >My heart goes out to women who would like to nurse but can't, for

> >whatever reason, especially if they are encountering judgement of

> >avid breastfeeding moms. I have know *many* women in this

> >situation, who have complained about the judgement they receive

from

> >pro-breastfeeding moms.

[Guest guest]

I also think there is another class of women, who, for whatever

reason, at a well baby visit have a doctor pronounce that their baby

is not gaining enough weight and that they must supplement the

feeding with a bottle or pump.

Most women in this category are sincerely concerned when they hear

that their baby isn't developing " the right way " and of course want

to do the " right thing " to solve that " problem " . But pumping is

daunting, tiring, a hassle, and often depleting for these women--and

formula is so much easier in the face of all that.

I especially grieve for those women, who sincerely are trying to do

the right thing. I don't know where those doctors (many of them

men) are getting their info, since most don't get more than a couple

of course hours at best during their entire pediatric training on

breastfeeding, but it is such a rip off. I also wonder if those

doctors aren't getting some sort of bonus from formula companies!

I remember being in a family practice osteopath clinic with my then

3 year old daughter--I was shocked at the quantity of literature on

formula feeding and the fact that there was *nothing* available

about breastfeeding! I spoke to the practitioner about the inequity

of this and requested they provide information. The practitioner

was a little shocked too, since she said they considered themselves

a " pro-breastfeeding " family practice. So how does all that crazy

formula advertising get there?

At the end of the day I think this is a huge corporate advertising

issue...while wet nurses and shared nursing among a tribe or

extended family has been the practice within the human species, it

has only taken a couple of generations to break this down.

My husband was raised in a family of Christian Scientists and all of

his family members have been breast fed because it was kept alive in

part because of their religious beliefs--they are shocked that in my

family this isn't the case. In my family (including Mexican

immigrants) breastfeeding was abandoned sometime between the 1940's-

50's. It takes a family of sisters, aunts, mamas, grandmas to help

keep this kind of knowledge of " what to do " alive and once that is

broken it can be hard to re-connect women to this tradition.

Leann

> > >mine too but what one of the Lynns said was really right: lots

of women

> > >just want to use it as an excuse to get past the guilt of early

weaning or

> > >not breast feeding at all.

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I wish that people took it more seriously sometimes too. But you know

what? I really wonder now after my experience. I remember when I read Sally

Fallon's opinion about it. It went something like, if you can breastfeed

then absolutely do so. But if you can't, then don't beat yourselfup about

it and use NT formula. At the time I thought it was too cavalier. I was not

about to give up and continued to do everything I possibly could. However,

now, in retrospect, I think she is right. I went through absolute hell

trying to increase my milk. All to no avail. Not only that, I don't know

anyone who could increase their milk in a major way. So in retrospect, I am

not sure if it matters if you give up early or late. Although I would

encourage women to breast feed as much as possible and supplement with

formula. But you know that is hard too. Babies when hungry get so upset

when there is not enough milk coming and then refuse to nurse at all. It is

such a struggle I really don't blame mothers for giving up.

What I would really like to see is groups like La Leche to tackle the issue

head on and push for research into things that would really help us. Like

the question of why can't we get prolactin if we want it? I suspect though

if they did that they would run head on into the wrath of the formula

industry and no way could they win that fight.

Irene

At 11:13 AM 6/18/04, you wrote:

>nono. i've found you can really tell. when a woman is sad that they can't

>make enough milk, ya know? that's obvious. i do my best to help! but when a

>woman is completely flippant about it, pushing a happy meal at her

>three-year-old and bragging " oh i couldn't make enough milk so we used

>formula and my brat's just fine " ...those women i question, in my mind.

>

>it's not mine to judge, but i try to help who i can and do my best to

>detach myself from those who are not interested in improvement. it's less

>painful that way!

>

>-katja

>

>At 02:03 PM 6/18/2004, you wrote:

> >How do you know that is what they want? Just curious. That is certainly not

> >what I wanted. That is not the feeling that I got talking to most other

> >women who were not able to.

> >Irene

> >

> >At 10:46 AM 6/18/04, you wrote:

> > >mine too but what one of the Lynns said was really right: lots of women

> > >just want to use it as an excuse to get past the guilt of early weaning or

> > >not breast feeding at all.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I've met many women too that choose to bottle feed for various

reasons. But they are up front about it. I haven't met anyone who told me

that they didn't have enough breast milk where I felt they were lying

because they wanted an excuse not to breastfeed. I am not saying it doesn't

happen. It is just that to my knowledge I haven't experienced it.

Irene

At 11:06 AM 6/18/04, you wrote:

>I dunno, I have a couple of friends who just had babies, and for

>their showers, when asked, if they were bottle or breast feeding the

>responses were " Oh bottle. It's so much easier and less hassle! "

>

>

> > >mine too but what one of the Lynns said was really right: lots of

>women

> > >just want to use it as an excuse to get past the guilt of early

>weaning or

> > >not breast feeding at all.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- In , Lynn Siprelle <lynn@s...>

wrote:

> > All this is saying is that the NT prescription is not of much

> > practical use, which is much, much, much different from saying

that

> > it is " ridiculous, " conflicts with research, and is a reason to

> > ignore other WAPF recommendations.

>

> Did I say it was a reason to ignore other recommendations? I said

it

> was hard to get other people to take them seriously, which results

in

> ignored recommendations.

You did seem to imply it conflicted with research that shows that all

breastmilk is equivalent (which it doesn't in any case-- I've read

some and WAPF has cited some to the contrary). You clearly don't

think WAPF should be ignored for it, or you wouldn't be here;

however, my point is that WAPF's point is perfectly reasonable in

principle. If it becomes moot because there's noone who will follow

their advice who is in a position that requires doing so, that simply

has no impact on the reasonableness of the advice in principle, but

only on the practical application of it.

Thus, these people are unjustified in not taking WAPF seriously based

on the entirely reasonable point that beyond a certain threshold of

poorness of diet, one is better using a quality formula than

breastfeeding.

Chris