Re: OT gender (was: spring 2004 wise traditions mag - disappointed with a few comments)

[Guest guest]

>

> >probably Jesus didn't appoint woman as apostles cuz he know most

women

> >would want to tend to wifing and mothering. this is how it has

ALWAYS

> >been and it is NOT demeaning or slavery. i choose to live this

way and i

> >am so blissfully happy and fulfilled it is NOT funny.

>

> Actually there are people who believe there was a woman apostle,

> but that was suppressed some time after the fact. But that's another

> story ...

There were numerous women apostles, and it was never suppressed, and

they've always been honored by the church. Many women saints in the

Orthodox Church bear the distinction of " Equal to the Apostles " for

their role in apostleship, such as Magdelene from apostolic

times, or St Nina who later singlehandedly converted the nation of

Georgia to Christianity.

However, I believe meant capital-A Apostles, not little-a

apostles, referring to the 12, from which the roles and powers of the

liturgical priesthood (as opposed to the royal priesthood which is

composed of all Christians) are derived.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Rebekah,

i know what i meant but i don't know exactly what i said and i don't have

time to look it up.

I'm sorry i said ANYTHING at all. had i been cleaning there would be no

discussion about this.

look, we all think and believe and feel how we do. talking about it

isn't going to change anything, and apparently talking about it online

just leads to more misunderstand.

i just want to quickly plough thru all these 83 emails and i probably

won't reply to many.

that's all I'll say on the subject.

everyone thinks and feels and believes how they do and now I'm sorry i

said anything at all yesterday.

it's a combination of being misunderstand and disagreed with.

i never should have gone off topic in the fist place.

i gotta spend less time on the computer and more time cooking and

cleaning. yesterday was a disaster.

laura

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:48:37 -0700 " Rebekah and "

<ContinuumFamily@...> writes:

Ummm, I know I said I wouldn't post again, but I just have to say, " huh? "

to your reply. I mean no disrespect, but what does this have to do with

what I said? <scratching head> Anyway, I don't have any hard feelings,

and I am not upset in the slightest, I just wanted to point out that many

feminists are mothers and pro-stay at home mom at least to some degree,

and that your statement about women " trying to be what they are not "

towards women who do " men's " work to me sounds a little haughty and

judgmental, but I don't think you really understood these points. That

is okay. Oh and I chose to use the word feminine, and I put it in

quotes because I don't think it really has a whole lot of meaning, like

it is relative to culture, upbringing, etc. Anyway, maybe we should just

move on.

Rebekah

----- Original Message -----

From: Busse

Rebekah,

to each his own. like Christie said, one man's medicine is another

man's

poison.

i think self expression can be misconstrued as judgementalism. i was

just expressing how i 'felt'. i didn't mean to imply everyone should

feel as i do. (but if they don't...they're missing out! LOL! there i

go again!!)

[Guest guest]

> Re: OT gender (was: spring 2004 wise traditions mag -

>disappointed with a few comments)

>

>

>

>>probably Jesus didn't appoint woman as apostles cuz he know most women

>>would want to tend to wifing and mothering. this is how it has ALWAYS

>>been and it is NOT demeaning or slavery. i choose to live this way and i

>>am so blissfully happy and fulfilled it is NOT funny.

>

>Actually there are people who believe there was a woman apostle,

>but that was suppressed some time after the fact. But that's another

>story ...

Are you referring to Junia?

http://www.churchofgoddfw.com/monthly/junia.shtml

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

>Are you referring to Junia?

><http://www.churchofgoddfw.com/monthly/junia.shtml>http://www.churchofgoddfw.co\

m/monthly/junia.shtml

Suze:

Actually it was an obscure reference to the latest " relax "

book I read, the Da Vinci code (one of those controversial

books, and don't ask me how true to history it is, but

it does bring up some interesting issues ... esp. about

Da Vinci, who appears to have been a really interesting

person!). Anyway, in that book, Magdalene is Jesus'

wife and was supposed to be the leader of the church.

And I'm really not going to debate it, it's one of those things

scholars have debated for centuries and I don't know enough

to debate it rationally. You can read about the controversy though:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/World/Primetime/davinci031103-1.html

BTW the bit about Junia is interesting!

And consolodating posts: Good for the archbishop and the Orthodox

folks! My main problem with most churches is the sheer misogyny (described

as " honoring " women, usually). I don't think a culture can be described as

" sustainable " until a woman can have a baby and breastfeed it and nurture

it without losing status or suffering economically ... i.e. she has to be

able to be a woman AND be " equal " whatever that means.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>there are no women archbishops in the Orthodox Christian world.

>

>the Orthodox believe that if Jesus had wanted women priests/bishops, then

>he would have appointed at least one woman as an apostle. and it's more

>complex than that; theologically it has something to do with His

>Incarnation.

>

>this COULD be construed as Jesus acting in tune with the culture of the

>time.

>

From what I've read the critiques are more about the human filter that the

biblical writing went through not Jesus' conformity to the culture of his

times. The ommissions, what was focused on, etc. by the writers. If one does

not believed the Biblical writings were the inspired word of God, there's

valid arguments about the writers being products of their culture and times.

But again, that depends on whether you believe teh Bible is the infallible

word of God with NO human influence whatsoever.

BTW, unsubbed yesterday, but I felt like commenting on this anyway :-)

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

> RE: OT gender (was: spring 2004 wise traditions mag -

>disappointed with a few comments)

>

>

>

>

>>Are you referring to Junia?

>><http://www.churchofgoddfw.com/monthly/junia.shtml>http://www.chur

>chofgoddfw.com/monthly/junia.shtml

>

>Suze:

>

>Actually it was an obscure reference to the latest " relax "

>book I read, the Da Vinci code (one of those controversial

>books, and don't ask me how true to history it is, but

>it does bring up some interesting issues ... esp. about

>Da Vinci, who appears to have been a really interesting

>person!). Anyway, in that book, Magdalene is Jesus'

>wife and was supposed to be the leader of the church.

>

>And I'm really not going to debate it, it's one of those things

>scholars have debated for centuries and I don't know enough

>to debate it rationally. You can read about the controversy though:

>

>http://abcnews.go.com/sections/World/Primetime/davinci031103-1.html

Ah...very interesting....

>And consolodating posts: Good for the archbishop and the Orthodox

>folks!

I'm not sure ALL Orthodox folks believe this, in fact I'm pretty sure some

don't.

My main problem with most churches is the sheer misogyny (described

>as " honoring " women, usually).

Got to make it palitable some how! LOL I haven't seen any specific

references to " honoring " women in the Orthodox church, but they do make it

clear that men and women, while having different roles, are equals before

God. I don't know for sure, but I suspect Archbishop Lazar is one of the

more outspoken Church leaders on the equality of women. He's really quite an

interesting man and in no way, shape or form could be described as

misogynist in my book, and I'm a lifelong feminist. (I'm not implying that

you were referring to him, though

I don't think a culture can be described as

> " sustainable " until a woman can have a baby and breastfeed it and nurture

>it without losing status or suffering economically ... i.e. she has to be

>able to be a woman AND be " equal " whatever that means.

Yeh...whatever that means....

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

>more outspoken Church leaders on the equality of women. He's really quite an

>interesting man and in no way, shape or form could be described as

>misogynist in my book, and I'm a lifelong feminist. (I'm not implying that

>you were referring to him, though

You are correct, I'm not referring to him, he sounds like a great

guy. Unfortunate events in my own past ...

>I don't think a culture can be described as

>> " sustainable " until a woman can have a baby and breastfeed it and nurture

>>it without losing status or suffering economically ... i.e. she has to be

>>able to be a woman AND be " equal " whatever that means.

>

>

>Yeh...whatever that means....

I think in my own marriage I'm " equal " though we do have different jobs.

But in the computer world, people tend to judge you according to what

you DO and KNOW and gender always takes a back seat. It's pretty

clear he knows more than me about cutting trees and laying gravel

though. He did offer to teach me to learn to use a backhoe ... now if

he'd said " ladies don't use backhoes " I'd be insulted, and maybe someday

I will learn to use a backhoe, but really, it just isn't ME!

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> RE: OT gender (was: spring 2004 wise traditions mag -

>disappointed with a few comments)

>

>I think in my own marriage I'm " equal " though we do have different jobs.

>But in the computer world, people tend to judge you according to what

>you DO and KNOW and gender always takes a back seat. It's pretty

>clear he knows more than me about cutting trees and laying gravel

>though. He did offer to teach me to learn to use a backhoe ... now if

>he'd said " ladies don't use backhoes " I'd be insulted, and maybe someday

>I will learn to use a backhoe, but really, it just isn't ME!

Well, I'd guess there are things that YOU are better at conversely!

" different roles, equal status " is how Orthodox Christianity views gender,

as I understand it, pertaining to the earlier part of this thread.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

>Well, I'd guess there are things that YOU are better at conversely!

> " different roles, equal status " is how Orthodox Christianity views gender,

>as I understand it, pertaining to the earlier part of this thread.

>

>Suze Fisher

Heh heh. Yeah, I'm better at plenty of stuff (actually I'm a perfectionist

who is convinced NO ONE ELSE does it right, you know the type).

Science pretty much agrees with the " different roles " part ... though

it's hard to make a blanket role assignment to ALL people (there

are women who drive a mean backhoe, and guys who

can cook!). We have a long way to go before women really get

equal status though (though it is far better than it was!).

-- Heidi Jean