Re: Yet another question about glutenous grains

[Guest guest]

probably depends on the individual but i did read (i think in Wise

Traditions) of one celiac person, who after recovering his health on a

gluten-free diet, was able to eat properly made sourdough in moderation.

Elaine

> From: " givemeamomenttothink " <deweyli@...>

> Reply-

> Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:24:12 -0000

>

> Subject: Yet another question about glutenous grains

>

> Okay, the question of the day. Is it fine to consume glutenous

> grains if they are sprouted or made into sourdough? I know that the

> gluten is supposed to be neutralized when prepared properly, but are

> there other ill effects that remain, unless of course you are

> actually allergic to wheat itself? Are the opioids, glutenins,

> gliadomorphins, gliadorphins, and whatever else is mentioned in

> regards to glutenous grains still a problem? I guess what I'm

> essentially asking is can their still be mental, fatigue, etc.

> problems from eating sprouted or sourdough products even though

> there may be no more gut problems? What about zonulin? Is it still

> problematic with sprouted and sourdough products?

>

> Robin

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello, I can only answer this from my personal experience, but for me sprouting,

fermenting, etc. do no good whatsoever. I get a rash from the sprouts and the

soak water as well even without consuming it. It only needs to touch my skin

to cause a reaction. The rash is the same as the one I get from actually eating

gluten.

Rebekah Fechner-

Yet another question about glutenous grains

Okay, the question of the day. Is it fine to consume glutenous

grains if they are sprouted or made into sourdough? I know that the

gluten is supposed to be neutralized when prepared properly, but are

there other ill effects that remain, unless of course you are

actually allergic to wheat itself? Are the opioids, glutenins,

gliadomorphins, gliadorphins, and whatever else is mentioned in

regards to glutenous grains still a problem? I guess what I'm

essentially asking is can their still be mental, fatigue, etc.

problems from eating sprouted or sourdough products even though

there may be no more gut problems? What about zonulin? Is it still

problematic with sprouted and sourdough products?

Robin

[Guest guest]

Rebekah,

i read you post below with interest;

do you mind if i ask if you have some sort of condition like crohn's or

anything...or do you just think you are rather allergic to gluten. and

if so, how did you inimically find out, or suspect gluten to begin

with...

thanks.

laura

p.s. i am so surprised by the varied reactions of people to gluten.

some can't tolerate it at all. some tolerate it fine. some tolerate it

only if it's sprouted, etc. some people can't tolerate raw milk til they

rid the gluten from their diets. etc.

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:46:46 -0700 " Rebekah and "

<ContinuumFamily@...> writes:

Hello, I can only answer this from my personal experience, but for me

sprouting, fermenting, etc. do no good whatsoever. I get a rash from the

sprouts and the soak water as well even without consuming it. It only

needs to touch my skin to cause a reaction. The rash is the same as the

one I get from actually eating gluten.

[Guest guest]

>Okay, the question of the day. Is it fine to consume glutenous

>grains if they are sprouted or made into sourdough? I know that the

>gluten is supposed to be neutralized when prepared properly, but are

>there other ill effects that remain, unless of course you are

>actually allergic to wheat itself? Are the opioids, glutenins,

>gliadomorphins, gliadorphins, and whatever else is mentioned in

>regards to glutenous grains still a problem? I guess what I'm

>essentially asking is can their still be mental, fatigue, etc.

>problems from eating sprouted or sourdough products even though

>there may be no more gut problems? What about zonulin? Is it still

>problematic with sprouted and sourdough products?

>

>Robin

Wow, you did your homework!

If a person is allergic to gluten, then tiny amounts will set off an immune

reaction.

Think of the persons who react to latex balloons ... all they have to do is

SMELL

latex! The immune reaction is mostly invisible, so most people don't know they

are reacting, tho later they may have gut problems or fatigue or whatever. Most

of the health problems are because of the immune reaction, not caused by

the gluten itself. Zonulin production etc. is set off by homeopathic amounts

of gluten, and it is next to impossible to get sourdough and sprouted wheat

that clean of gluten.

If you are not allergic to gluten, then the gluten itself *can* cause damage,

but properly preparing it and properly digesting it can minimize that damage.

So some people can eat properly prepared bread just fine and live a nice

long life with no arthritis etc.

Basically my opinion is that if you have the HLA-DQ8 or 2 gene you will

live longer and be happier if you can live without any wheat products.

But if you MUST have them, sourdough etc. will be less problematic.

Unfortunately, the allergic people are the ones most addicted to wheat ...

and if the gluten is removed, then eating the bread won't satisfy the addiction.

It's like trying to get an alcholic to live off alcohol free wine.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>probably depends on the individual but i did read (i think in Wise

>Traditions) of one celiac person, who after recovering his health on a

>gluten-free diet, was able to eat properly made sourdough in moderation.

>Elaine

Gottschall wrote that in SCD too. The problem is, that when they do

biopsies on celiacs who eat " moderate " amounts of gluten rarely,

they are still getting gut damage (but no symptoms). Until they come

up with a decent home test for gluten reactions, it's an iffy proposition.

Also, since it is rather addictive, it's like an alcoholic drinking " a little "

wine.

There is a sourdough that was tested though, on gut tissue, and

it seems to be non-reactive. Hydrolyzed gluten is much less

harmful, for some reason.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> Basically my opinion is that if you have the HLA-DQ8 or 2 gene you

will

> live longer and be happier if you can live without any wheat

products.

Shoot! I suppose the only way to find this out is with those darned

expensive test? Right now I'll just keep it all out (for how long?)

and then add some sprouted or sourdough back into my diet and see

how I feel mentally. Even though I don't have celiac as far as I

know (there's no obvious classical symptoms) I often wonder about

how well I absorb nutrients because of the fatigue I am always

fighting. I suspect this also has to do with wheat and/or glutenous

grains.

Robin

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

I don't think I have crohn's, but I have not officially been diagnosed

through tests for gluten intolerance or any other digestive disease for that

matter. I learned of my intolerance through elimination and reintroduction of

gluten.

I first suspected gluten because of my first child's colic. She had

severe colic with projectile vomiting, etc. She was really unhappy and hurting

for a whole year before my husband and I took matters into our own hands

(instead of relying on the peds to figure it out, which they couldn't) and did

some looking up on the internet. I learned about some early autism symptoms and

vaccines and gluten and casein and how they were connected. Since I had given

her some initial vaccines, and since in hindsight I realized that she got worse

(her colic or some other problem cropped up) after each time she was vaccinated,

and put it all together and decided to go cold turkey gluten and casein free for

all of us.

Anyway, things got better for everyone, but first they got a little worse,

like major flulike symptoms for me and some horrid rashes on my mouth. I think

now that it was a detox, as I was better than before after the symptoms left.

Anyway, I could really write a novel about this, but that is the short

version of how I discovered the intolerance. Now when I eat gluten, I get more

noticeable symptoms than when I was eating it for every meal of the day. I get

the dermatitis herpetiformis type rash, which takes a long time to go away,

unless I go strict paleo for a while. Anyway, I think that about sums it up.

(BTW it was a lot easier to go gluten free than I thought it would be, believe

it or not. )

Rebekah Fechner-

Re: Yet another question about glutenous grains

Rebekah,

i read you post below with interest;

do you mind if i ask if you have some sort of condition like crohn's or

anything...or do you just think you are rather allergic to gluten. and

if so, how did you inimically find out, or suspect gluten to begin

with...

thanks.

laura

[Guest guest]

>Shoot! I suppose the only way to find this out is with those darned

>expensive test? Right now I'll just keep it all out (for how long?)

>and then add some sprouted or sourdough back into my diet and see

>how I feel mentally. Even though I don't have celiac as far as I

>know (there's no obvious classical symptoms) I often wonder about

>how well I absorb nutrients because of the fatigue I am always

>fighting. I suspect this also has to do with wheat and/or glutenous

>grains.

>

>Robin

Well, the tests ARE expensive, but it's the only way to get a cut and dried

answer.

The blood tests are iffy, they miss most of the gluten intolerant people (they

are only positive if you are pretty sick).

OTOH ... if you are of Northern European ancestry, there is a really good

chance you are intolerant. In the US, about 40% of the population carry

the gene, and maybe 30% show IgA in the gut, so if you FEEL a reaction

to gluten, then you likely have an IgA reaction.

I got tested because it was the only way to convince myself I wasn't crazy,

but everyone else convinced themselves ... " If it makes me sick, why do I

want to eat it? " . Fortunately, once they gave it up, they have obvious symptoms

when they eat it (like hives and canker sores) even with small amounts.

You might ask yourself why you WANT spelt and sprouted bread ... there

are good GF breads if you just want bread. But if you specifically are craving

WHEAT bread then why wheat? The fact you crave wheat is a bad sign.

I serve bread to a lot of folks that are not gluten intolerant, and they just

say it's good bread (which it is, though I'm not fond of bread myself).

Much of the world eats bread, but most of the bread they eat isn't

made with wheat (or wasn't, til pretty recently). Wheat is way, way

overrated as a culinary ingredient. The only advantage is that like alcohol and

MSG,

people crave it no matter how bad the food is that it is in.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

,

I get mild joint pain and stomach bloating from eating gluten. I'm only

beginning to really notice the symptoms.

Re: Yet another question about glutenous grains

> p.s. i am so surprised by the varied reactions of people to gluten.

> some can't tolerate it at all. some tolerate it fine. some tolerate it

> only if it's sprouted, etc. some people can't tolerate raw milk til they

> rid the gluten from their diets. etc.

[Guest guest]

bingo! I'm very northern European.

laura

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:57:36 -0700 Heidi Schuppenhauer

<heidis@...> writes:

OTOH ... if you are of Northern European ancestry, there is a really good

chance you are intolerant. In the US, about 40% of the population carry

the gene, and maybe 30% show IgA in the gut, so if you FEEL a reaction

to gluten, then you likely have an IgA reaction.

[Guest guest]

Rebekah,

would you mind elaborating a little bit on how easy it was?

did you eat mostly potatoes and rice for your starch after that?

thanks,

laura

(BTW it was a lot easier to go gluten free than I thought it would be,

believe it or not. )

Rebekah Fechner-

[Guest guest]

Okay, well it was easy partly because I was desperate to actually *do* something

for my poor child's misery, and changing our diet was easier than the screaming,

vomiting, etc. Also, yes, we did eat rice and potatoes, but I did lots of

internet research and gathered bunches of recipes that looked tasty to me before

I went cold turkey. It only took a day or so to gather lots of neat recipes on

the internet BTW. I saw it as fun and a challenge to try to make stuff without

gluten and casein in it. I guess I didn't have the attitude that I was

" deprived " somehow or that I should be suffering in any way, so I didn't feel

deprived, and I didn't suffer.

We ate millet, rice, potatoes, sweet potatoes, quinoa and beans for

starches, and it was pretty simple to just eat those instead of gluten. There

is a really great fermented brown rice bread recipe I can post if anyone is

interested. I got it off the internet, but it is no longer findable online.

Also I started eating new foods like avocadoes and lots of meat and fish, etc.

which was really good for me. Anyway, nuts played a larger role in my diet

after that as well. There are so many things you can do with nuts, even as a

flour for baking. So, it was a very positive turning point in my life, and I

think it partly had to do with my attitude about it.

Rebekah

Re: Yet another question about glutenous grains

Rebekah,

would you mind elaborating a little bit on how easy it was?

did you eat mostly potatoes and rice for your starch after that?

thanks,

laura

[Guest guest]

Rebekah, I'm be interested in the fermented brown rice bread recipe,

if you don't mind posting it.

Thanks!

~ Fern

----- Original Message -----

From: " Rebekah and "

>There is a really great fermented brown rice bread recipe I can post

if anyone is interested. I got it off the internet, but it is no

longer findable online.

[Guest guest]

<<Rebekah, I'm be interested in the fermented brown rice bread recipe,

if you don't mind posting it.>>

Me Too!!!

Kay HYPERLINK

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[Guest guest]

It only took a day or so to gather lots of neat recipes on the

internet BTW.

There is a really great fermented brown rice bread recipe I can post

if anyone is interested.

I would love for you to share all your favorite (and more) recipes

with us (if you don't mind). I, for one, need all the help I can

get in learning to be more creative with cooking this way.

Robin