Re: more about soil: was re: Vegetables Without Vitamins - How to deal with low quality foods produced by local farms

[Guest guest]

Katja,

you make a lot of good points.

so what's the solution?

i thought whatever came from the soil ultimately came from the minerals

inherent in the soil, plus whatever comes from the rotting organic

material that grows in it.

so if you cut down trees in an old forest to clear way for a farm, the

soil is going to be very rich. but if you only grow and take and grow

and take...i see your point.

do you think planting timothy grass in the fall and digging in under in

the spring, or whatever the practice is, is enough?

thanks for this; I'm learning about soil. something i never thought

about before.

laura

hee. ok. well, for one, as suze said, yep. you're wrong. i'd highly

recommend you get a refractometer - they're really eye-opening...

[Guest guest]

well, the timothy grass solution you mention - referred to as " green

manure " or " cover cropping " (though the latter term doesn't inherently mean

that you intend to turn the field under) - is a great thing to do. however,

it's a closed system: the timothy grew and took from the soil, and now

you're going to put it back. if the soil had no selenium (for example) to

give to the timothy the first time around, then turning it under isn't

going to replace the missing selenium. however, it IS a good practice.

some things you can do...you can have soil tests done to see what you're

lacking...you can purchase compost with guaranteed content analysis, or

manure from a local farm, or organic (non-chemical) fertilizers, such as

fish emulsion fertilizers (which is mostly made of ground up fish!). you

might also need lime or calcium, rock dust, other nutrients, etc....it's

really a huge list. most importantly though, you need bugs, and in

particular earth worms. for information about that, you can google " soil

food web " - which will get you a lot of information that will basically

tell you that dirt is a complete ecosystem in and of itself, and that we

need to keep it alive. you might learn about permaculturing and how to

garden without tilling, so that you can disturb as little of the foodweb as

possible...

where are you? your county extension agent may or may not be able to help

you - it depends on how entrenched factory farming is in your area.

however, your local organic certification board will be able to help you

find products in your area. if you're in new england, i can help you too!

it's good you're learning! tell your friends!

-katja

At 12:28 PM 6/16/2004, you wrote:

>Katja,

>

>you make a lot of good points.

>

>so what's the solution?

>

>i thought whatever came from the soil ultimately came from the minerals

>inherent in the soil, plus whatever comes from the rotting organic

>material that grows in it.

>

>so if you cut down trees in an old forest to clear way for a farm, the

>soil is going to be very rich. but if you only grow and take and grow

>and take...i see your point.

>

>do you think planting timothy grass in the fall and digging in under in

>the spring, or whatever the practice is, is enough?

>

>thanks for this; I'm learning about soil. something i never thought

>about before.

>

>laura

>

>

>hee. ok. well, for one, as suze said, yep. you're wrong. i'd highly

>recommend you get a refractometer - they're really eye-opening...

>

>

[Guest guest]

hi Katja,

we live in NJ, and this is perfect timing cuz we're buying a house!!! so

next summer i will have a garden. so...i need to know what to do

starting this fall.

i was going to fence off an area (deer fence among other critters) and

just keep dumping grass clippings and raked leaves into it. i thought if

i had a good layer going it would start killing the grass for me for next

spring plus provide some much needed organic matter. i realize this

might not work; i know it's probably better to compost.

actually, this all sounds so overwhelming...

my m.o. in the past was to kill grass with a layer of black plastic, then

dig a hole where i want to plant something (tomato seedling, whatever),

buy big bags of composted manure, put the manure in the hole and then

stick the seedling in, and cover over with the black plastic. our soil

is red clay. this helped, but I'm sure there's a better way. i have no

rototiller and don't plan to buy one. i like to dig.

if you were me, what would be your next step? if you give me a list of

things to do to get optimal soil, I'll probably just feel overwhelmed and

maybe do nothing.

get the soil tested? is that a good first step? start composting as

soon as we move? (Sept)

I'm aware of the ag. extension program. in NJ it's out of Rutgers, and

cook college (of Rutgers) is the aggie school, and it also is my alma

mater. :-)

that's enough for now.

i had no idea soil was so important. i thought dirt was dirt.

laura

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:54:31 -0400 katja <katja@...> writes:

well, the timothy grass solution you mention - referred to as " green

manure " or " cover cropping " (though the latter term doesn't inherently

mean...

[Guest guest]

>

>i was going to fence off an area (deer fence among other critters) and

>just keep dumping grass clippings and raked leaves into it. i thought if

>i had a good layer going it would start killing the grass for me for next

>spring plus provide some much needed organic matter. i realize this

>might not work; i know it's probably better to compost.

actually, this is a great idea! mulch it up nice and thick. remember, you

never want to leave bare earth. it's fine to have mulch even 6 " deep! when

you want to plant, just pull some away in your row, and plant your seeds,

but keep mulching around it. this is a perfectly good solution, a great way

to get started!! even if you don't add anything else to your soil, this

will be a great way to improve what you've got.

>actually, this all sounds so overwhelming...

heehee. don't worry. one thing at a time. start with the mulch, then add

more after that!

>my m.o. in the past was to kill grass with a layer of black plastic, then

>dig a hole where i want to plant something (tomato seedling, whatever),

>buy big bags of composted manure, put the manure in the hole and then

>stick the seedling in, and cover over with the black plastic. our soil

>is red clay. this helped, but I'm sure there's a better way. i have no

>rototiller and don't plan to buy one. i like to dig.

yeah. nonono black plastic. mulch is tons better. the bugs like it, and the

bugs are the ones who are going to move those nutrients around in the soil

for you. if you have a source for that manure, then spread some evenly

(right over the existing grass - that's fine) over the garden area first,

then start your mulch-blanket. then let that be enough for this year, while

you continue to learn about the soil food web and soil augmentation. it's a

great way to start!

>if you were me, what would be your next step? if you give me a list of

>things to do to get optimal soil, I'll probably just feel overwhelmed and

>maybe do nothing.

1. manure, right on top of the grass

2. mulch-blanket - that's great!

3. get a soil test, this fall.

4. research good fertilizers (like fishmeal and oyster shell) and see what

will meet your soil's needs. there may be a local service who will do this

for you...

>get the soil tested? is that a good first step? start composting as

>soon as we move? (Sept)

well, composting is always good: that way, waste never goes to waste! if

you live in the suburbs, try www.gaiam.com and get a worm composter (or

build one yourself)

>I'm aware of the ag. extension program. in NJ it's out of Rutgers, and

>cook college (of Rutgers) is the aggie school, and it also is my alma

>mater. :-)

definitely check in with them, but make sure you talk to someone organic.

if you're talking to a conventional farming person, they can't help you.

whoever works with the organic people definitely can, and let them know

that you're trying to build up your soil. even without a soil test, this

person will be able to tell you what your area is deficient in, and some

good steps to take (each region is different). you can call this person

right now if you want - as long as you know the area you're moving to.

remember, your tax dollars pay him/her - so don't be shy!!

>that's enough for now.

>

>i had no idea soil was so important. i thought dirt was dirt.

hee. *hug*

now you know!

>laura

>

>On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:54:31 -0400 katja <katja@...> writes:

>well, the timothy grass solution you mention - referred to as " green

>manure " or " cover cropping " (though the latter term doesn't inherently

>mean...

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>> but in the end, think about the laws of energy. energy is neither

created nor destroyed. what does that mean for soil? and food? a

calorie is just a measurement of energy. so let's look at the

cycle: the soil (and the sun) give energy to plants so that they

grow. the plants give energy to the animals who eat them. if those

animals are meat animals, then we also get energy from the meat.

but now what happens if i don't put energy back into that soil? the

soil doesn't create its own energy - it's not an energy factory

(otherwise we won't have nuclear plants!). it's got to come from

> somewhere. ... do we grow the same crops on it each year -

which gobble up the same nutrients year after year, and if we do,

are we putting THOSE specific nutrients back, or are we just

tossing on manure and hoping that's sufficient? (that's what most

farmers do if not chemicals). so the point here is that food is non-

linear. it's not a product at the end of a conveyor belt. it's one

stop along a cycle - a CIRCLE, really.

>

>

I agree about the nutrients, but not about the energy. The soil

doesn't give energy to plants, just the raw materials. The energy

comes from the sun.

(Unless you have some indirect system in mind, where you're

including feeding the earthworms or other soil creatures, in which

case maybe you do need energy in the form of organic material to

feed those organisms).

Marty