Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? Jill Notch Filter for BE The recent discussions about 60 Hz problems (50 Hz in Europe and other parts of the world) has resulted in my taking another look at this issue. I've gone back and looked at 's posts about the "notch" filter he developed for situations where electrical mains interference appears to be unavoidable and (with his help) was able to produce that filter. It does a great job of removing the 60 Hz spike from the spectrum analyzer and its effects from the oscilloscope raw wave forms. reports that he uses it between the Source and the Bandpass filters he will be training as well, so I tried that, testing it on good and bad signals, looking at the effect on faster frequencies (e.g. beta range) and especially on fastwave coherences. It did result in lowering of fast amplitudes in recordings with lots of 60 Hz signal, but had almost no effect on signals where the 60 Hz signal was not a problem. Ditto for fastwave coherences, where 60 Hz (or 50 Hz) interference tends to cause overstatement. The big concern about placing another filter between the Source and the Bandpass filters in a design is the potential for increasing feedback latency--slowing down the connection between what happens in the brain and how quickly the brain sees it reflected in the feedback mirror. The design here uses a 1st order Butterworth filter, which results in a very sharp drop from 60 Hz on both sides--if filters out primarily the frequency we want to remove--and it adds a delay AT 60 HZ of about 160 ms. This would be a pretty large delay (my designs generally try to keep total delay for the whole design below 250 ms), if 60 Hz were a frequency we actually wanted to train. However, the delay drops off to below 80 ms by the time we reach 1 Hz on either side of the 60 Hz point, so its effective addition to the delay in the design is very small indeed--close to zero--by the time we reach frequencies where we might actually be training--even at around 40 Hz. I'm attaching the file to this e-mail for those of you who receive individual postings. For those who do not, I have uploaded it to the Files section at the group's homepage ( http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/braintrainer/files/ ), so you can go there to download it. Use it as a model to add the Bandpass Filter and Expression to any design you wish. Of course, if you are working in an area with 50 Hz interference, you will change the bandpass filter from 49-51 Hz instead of 59-61 as in the model. In the model, you will see that I have connected the output from the Expression to the Spectrum Analyzer and the Oscilloscope, but you could use the output to go to all your training filters as well. Thanks to for his help on this. Hope this is helpful to those of you struggling with this issue. Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? Jill Notch Filter for BE The recent discussions about 60 Hz problems (50 Hz in Europe and other parts of the world) has resulted in my taking another look at this issue. I've gone back and looked at 's posts about the "notch" filter he developed for situations where electrical mains interference appears to be unavoidable and (with his help) was able to produce that filter. It does a great job of removing the 60 Hz spike from the spectrum analyzer and its effects from the oscilloscope raw wave forms. reports that he uses it between the Source and the Bandpass filters he will be training as well, so I tried that, testing it on good and bad signals, looking at the effect on faster frequencies (e.g. beta range) and especially on fastwave coherences. It did result in lowering of fast amplitudes in recordings with lots of 60 Hz signal, but had almost no effect on signals where the 60 Hz signal was not a problem. Ditto for fastwave coherences, where 60 Hz (or 50 Hz) interference tends to cause overstatement. The big concern about placing another filter between the Source and the Bandpass filters in a design is the potential for increasing feedback latency--slowing down the connection between what happens in the brain and how quickly the brain sees it reflected in the feedback mirror. The design here uses a 1st order Butterworth filter, which results in a very sharp drop from 60 Hz on both sides--if filters out primarily the frequency we want to remove--and it adds a delay AT 60 HZ of about 160 ms. This would be a pretty large delay (my designs generally try to keep total delay for the whole design below 250 ms), if 60 Hz were a frequency we actually wanted to train. However, the delay drops off to below 80 ms by the time we reach 1 Hz on either side of the 60 Hz point, so its effective addition to the delay in the design is very small indeed--close to zero--by the time we reach frequencies where we might actually be training--even at around 40 Hz. I'm attaching the file to this e-mail for those of you who receive individual postings. For those who do not, I have uploaded it to the Files section at the group's homepage ( http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/braintrainer/files/ ), so you can go there to download it. Use it as a model to add the Bandpass Filter and Expression to any design you wish. Of course, if you are working in an area with 50 Hz interference, you will change the bandpass filter from 49-51 Hz instead of 59-61 as in the model. In the model, you will see that I have connected the output from the Expression to the Spectrum Analyzer and the Oscilloscope, but you could use the output to go to all your training filters as well. Thanks to for his help on this. Hope this is helpful to those of you struggling with this issue. Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Jill, Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested. Pete Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com 305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Jill, Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested. Pete Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com 305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Infinity has a notch filter for both 50 and 60 Hz. Mark Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill, Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested. Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Infinity has a notch filter for both 50 and 60 Hz. Mark Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill, Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested. Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Infinity has a notch filter for both 50 and 60 Hz. Mark Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill, Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested. Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Thanks, Pete and Mark! Do I have to do something special in order to engage it, or is it active automatically? Jill Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill, Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested. Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Thanks, Pete and Mark! Do I have to do something special in order to engage it, or is it active automatically? Jill Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill, Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested. Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Thanks, Pete and Mark! Do I have to do something special in order to engage it, or is it active automatically? Jill Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill, Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested. Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Jill,In bioexplorer I set up designs with a button that can activate the notch filter,  The normal state has the filter off, click the button and the filter is on,Goerge georgemartin@...www.northstarneurofeedback.com Thanks, Pete and Mark! Do I have to do something special in order to engage it, or is it active automatically? Jill Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill,  Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested.  Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete,    I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? .-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Jill,In bioexplorer I set up designs with a button that can activate the notch filter,  The normal state has the filter off, click the button and the filter is on,Goerge georgemartin@...www.northstarneurofeedback.com Thanks, Pete and Mark! Do I have to do something special in order to engage it, or is it active automatically? Jill Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill,  Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested.  Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete,    I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? .-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Jill,In bioexplorer I set up designs with a button that can activate the notch filter,  The normal state has the filter off, click the button and the filter is on,Goerge georgemartin@...www.northstarneurofeedback.com Thanks, Pete and Mark! Do I have to do something special in order to engage it, or is it active automatically? Jill Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill,  Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested.  Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete,    I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? .-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Jill Once you have opened Infinity click on options at the top of the screen and then click on notch filters and set either 50 or 60 Hz depending on where you live. Mark Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill, Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested. Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Jill Once you have opened Infinity click on options at the top of the screen and then click on notch filters and set either 50 or 60 Hz depending on where you live. Mark Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill, Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested. Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Jill Once you have opened Infinity click on options at the top of the screen and then click on notch filters and set either 50 or 60 Hz depending on where you live. Mark Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill, Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested. Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 Thank you so much, Mark! I have experienced lots of 60 Hz peaks occasionally in my downtown office. It doesn't seem to depend upon what else may be running concurrently in my office so it may be something in the building or in another office nearby. I'll choose that option from now on! Jill Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill, Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested. Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 Thank you so much, Mark! I have experienced lots of 60 Hz peaks occasionally in my downtown office. It doesn't seem to depend upon what else may be running concurrently in my office so it may be something in the building or in another office nearby. I'll choose that option from now on! Jill Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill, Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested. Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 Thanks, ! Re: Notch Filter for BE Jill, Thanks for asking this question. I intended when I was writing the e-mail to speak to that issue, and I forgot. I don't offhand recall if Infiniti already has a notch filter or not. If not, while this particular design wouldn't work, it certainly would be feasible to create the same solution in Infiniti. Perhaps someone who knows the software better than I in its latest incarnation will respond and tell us if the notch filter already exists. If not, I'd be happy to correspond back-channel with anyone interested in creating a model of the filter for Intiniti, and I'd be happy to load it in the Files section for those who are interested. Pete On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jill Ripley <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Hello Pete, I haven't downloaded this to look at it, but I'm assuming it's a fix for Bioexplorer, not Infiniti, right? ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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