Re: Protocol Decision Trees

[Guest guest]

The sweet spots are unique to each individual. It is found by using IIR filters to reward around 80% of the time a frequency that is found by varying the reward frequencies up and down based on interviewing the client many times during a sessions. The questions get at the optimal relaxation/arousal continuum. There are both inhibits and rewards. Sites are chosen via symptom and client response. since the scalp placements are measuring the relationship between two sites its not really "a" sweet spot but rather sweet spots.

One can of course use spectrum analyzers and peripheral biofeedback measures to look for non subjective correlates but it is client subjective response that is the prime determinant.

Bruce

RE: Protocol Decision Trees

Erlend,

I am very interested in Sue Othmer’s protocols. I am trying to find the optimal reward frequency with myself and am having a hard time. I figure if I can’t find it, I can’t help anyone else find it.

Do you have any advice on finding that optimal reward frequency?

Do you have any experience with using the protocols with learning disabilities?

I most likely will take her training next but most likely not for 6 months or so but in the mean time, I may play around a bit. My son is getting so much better with his ADD using her original C3 beta protocol. However, he also has a verbal IQ which is significantly higher than his perceptual IQ which my indicate right brain issues (TLC does confirm this). Also, he has many executive function issues.

The C3 beta training is helping so much but I can help think that some of her advanced protocols could really help too. I think coherence from front to back could be an issue and that these protocols could help.

Thanks, Connie

From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of erlendSent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 1:41 AMTo: braintrainer Subject: SV: Protocol Decision Trees

I use Sue Othmers protocol decision tree extensively and it works beautifully. It is, in my opinion, absolutely not recommended to be used without attending to a course learning Othmers approach. But used in a proper way it is a very powerful tool to be used with many disorders.

Regards

Erlend

Norway

Fra: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] På vegne av Øystein LarsenSendt: 1. januar 2008 20:43Til: braintrainer Emne: Re: Protocol Decision Trees

The best I ever seen was made by Othmer...I suppose Siegfried Othmer is in this forum from time to time..

or you can have a look at their website http://www.eeginfo.com/

best from Øystein...)

2007/12/31, NICK MAMMANO <nickmammano>:

I was not aware that there were protocol decision trees devised by trainers on this site. They are a great idea and, on reflection, I should not have been surprised that it is being done, and probably continues to be done.

Are they proprietary -- even in an informal sense?

I have no interest in them personally because I'm a home trainer with one "client". For most others on the list they clearly provide a quick and convenient way to select a reasonable or effective protocol(s) in any given situation.

I know that the phrase "scientific credibility" makes some people on this list shudder but sharing and comparing listmember's protocols is a great systematic way to continuously winnow out the "bad", or less effective. ones and improve on those that work. Not quite the same as a "double-blind study", refereed and published in a publication with some credibility, but considering the (to me) baffling resistance to that kind of study, it's the next best thing.

nick mammano PhD. Chemical Physics

(title listed so you know "where I'm coming from")

Can anyone share their protocol decesion trees with me. I want to compare them with mine.Thanks--

-- LCSW Øystein Larsenmob.+47 90143389fax. +47 33462750Biofeedback in ScandinaviaClinics, training and equipmentThought TechnologyRoshi

[Guest guest]

Bruce,

Good explanation. I think the biggest issue for many people (including, if I recall properly, the question that started this thread) is client recognition of when exactly one is " there " . I've done this with a number of clients who were simply not able to tell me that they suddenly felt so much better--or worse even sometimes. It seems that, assuming Sue is always able to find it (which we assume based on hearing always about her successes), she has a huge amount of experience that most trainers don't have, so she is perhaps able to " see " things in a client's response that most trainers would not. Hence the desire for something in the EEG that might help identify having found the spot.

Another question that often arises is " how long do you stay at each frequency? " The idea of shifting up and down the range is not to hard to get your head around, but do you stay at a particular band for 10 seconds? 10 minutes? And, in the older days, there was a 3 Hz band for reward, which now, I understand, is sometimes as low as 0.5 Hz. So we can't just start at 12-15 Hz and slide the band down to 11.5-14.5, to 11-14, etc. Because the sweet spot MAY be 0.5 Hz to 1 Hz (a band, by the way, at which the delay between an event happening in the brain and the brain receiving feedback on it--even with the very fastest filters--is likely to be several seconds!), I'm stumped as to how one decides how wide the band should be, how long to test each one and where exactly it is, unless I get one of those clients who can TELL me, " oh yeah! That's it! "

Pete

The sweet spots are unique to each individual. It is found by using IIR filters to reward around 80% of the time a frequency that is found by varying the reward frequencies up and down based on interviewing the client many times during a sessions. The questions get at the optimal relaxation/arousal continuum. There are both inhibits and rewards. Sites are chosen via symptom and client response. since the scalp placements are measuring the relationship between two sites its not really " a " sweet spot but rather sweet spots

..

One can of course use spectrum analyzers and peripheral biofeedback measures to look for non subjective correlates but it is client subjective response that is the prime determinant.

Bruce

SV: Protocol Decision Trees

I use Sue Othmers protocol decision tree extensively and it works beautifully. It is, in my opinion, absolutely not recommended to be used without attending to a course learning Othmers approach. But used in a proper way it is a very powerful tool to be used with many disorders.

Regards

Erlend

Norway

Fra: braintrainer [mailto:

braintrainer ] På vegne av Øystein LarsenSendt: 1. januar 2008 20:43Til: braintrainer

Emne: Re: Protocol Decision Trees

The best I ever seen was made by Othmer...I suppose Siegfried Othmer is in this forum from time to time..

or you can have a look at their website http://www.eeginfo.com/

best from Øystein...)

2007/12/31, NICK MAMMANO :

I was not aware that there were protocol decision trees devised by trainers on this site. They are a great idea and, on reflection, I should not have been surprised that it is being done, and probably continues to be done.

Are they proprietary -- even in an informal sense?

I have no interest in them personally because I'm a home trainer with one " client " . For most others on the list they clearly provide a quick and convenient way to select a reasonable or effective protocol(s) in any given situation.

I know that the phrase " scientific credibility " makes some people on this list shudder but sharing and comparing listmember's protocols is a great systematic way to continuously winnow out the " bad " , or less effective. ones and improve on those that work. Not quite the same as a " double-blind study " , refereed and published in a publication with some credibility, but considering the (to me) baffling resistance to that kind of study, it's the next best thing.

nick mammano PhD. Chemical Physics

(title listed so you know " where I'm coming from " )

Can anyone share their protocol decesion trees with me. I want to compare them with mine.Thanks--

-- LCSW Øystein Larsenmob.+47 90143389fax. +47 33462750Biofeedback in ScandinaviaClinics, training and equipmentThought TechnologyRoshi

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Bruce,

Good explanation. I think the biggest issue for many people (including, if I recall properly, the question that started this thread) is client recognition of when exactly one is " there " . I've done this with a number of clients who were simply not able to tell me that they suddenly felt so much better--or worse even sometimes. It seems that, assuming Sue is always able to find it (which we assume based on hearing always about her successes), she has a huge amount of experience that most trainers don't have, so she is perhaps able to " see " things in a client's response that most trainers would not. Hence the desire for something in the EEG that might help identify having found the spot.

Another question that often arises is " how long do you stay at each frequency? " The idea of shifting up and down the range is not to hard to get your head around, but do you stay at a particular band for 10 seconds? 10 minutes? And, in the older days, there was a 3 Hz band for reward, which now, I understand, is sometimes as low as 0.5 Hz. So we can't just start at 12-15 Hz and slide the band down to 11.5-14.5, to 11-14, etc. Because the sweet spot MAY be 0.5 Hz to 1 Hz (a band, by the way, at which the delay between an event happening in the brain and the brain receiving feedback on it--even with the very fastest filters--is likely to be several seconds!), I'm stumped as to how one decides how wide the band should be, how long to test each one and where exactly it is, unless I get one of those clients who can TELL me, " oh yeah! That's it! "

Pete

The sweet spots are unique to each individual. It is found by using IIR filters to reward around 80% of the time a frequency that is found by varying the reward frequencies up and down based on interviewing the client many times during a sessions. The questions get at the optimal relaxation/arousal continuum. There are both inhibits and rewards. Sites are chosen via symptom and client response. since the scalp placements are measuring the relationship between two sites its not really " a " sweet spot but rather sweet spots

..

One can of course use spectrum analyzers and peripheral biofeedback measures to look for non subjective correlates but it is client subjective response that is the prime determinant.

Bruce

SV: Protocol Decision Trees

I use Sue Othmers protocol decision tree extensively and it works beautifully. It is, in my opinion, absolutely not recommended to be used without attending to a course learning Othmers approach. But used in a proper way it is a very powerful tool to be used with many disorders.

Regards

Erlend

Norway

Fra: braintrainer [mailto:

braintrainer ] På vegne av Øystein LarsenSendt: 1. januar 2008 20:43Til: braintrainer

Emne: Re: Protocol Decision Trees

The best I ever seen was made by Othmer...I suppose Siegfried Othmer is in this forum from time to time..

or you can have a look at their website http://www.eeginfo.com/

best from Øystein...)

2007/12/31, NICK MAMMANO :

I was not aware that there were protocol decision trees devised by trainers on this site. They are a great idea and, on reflection, I should not have been surprised that it is being done, and probably continues to be done.

Are they proprietary -- even in an informal sense?

I have no interest in them personally because I'm a home trainer with one " client " . For most others on the list they clearly provide a quick and convenient way to select a reasonable or effective protocol(s) in any given situation.

I know that the phrase " scientific credibility " makes some people on this list shudder but sharing and comparing listmember's protocols is a great systematic way to continuously winnow out the " bad " , or less effective. ones and improve on those that work. Not quite the same as a " double-blind study " , refereed and published in a publication with some credibility, but considering the (to me) baffling resistance to that kind of study, it's the next best thing.

nick mammano PhD. Chemical Physics

(title listed so you know " where I'm coming from " )

Can anyone share their protocol decesion trees with me. I want to compare them with mine.Thanks--

-- LCSW Øystein Larsenmob.+47 90143389fax. +47 33462750Biofeedback in ScandinaviaClinics, training and equipmentThought TechnologyRoshi

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Jim,

Well, actually it's not my training approach and not one I've ever used very much after the first month or so of testing it, so I'm not sure it much matters what I would like. I think the real question is what Sue Othmer does and how she does it.

Pete

What would you prefer? Reward band range, or reward band range % of 2-42 Hz?

.. -- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Jim,

Well, actually it's not my training approach and not one I've ever used very much after the first month or so of testing it, so I'm not sure it much matters what I would like. I think the real question is what Sue Othmer does and how she does it.

Pete

What would you prefer? Reward band range, or reward band range % of 2-42 Hz?

.. -- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Suzanne,  thanks for the good

advice.  I totally agree with you.  I know it seems like I am off somewhere

doing my own thing but for actual training I do have a mentor who uses the

TLC.  And Pete is always a great option.  I just want to learn everything

(obsessive personality – beta % all over 20!!)  So I do some things like

trying to find the sweet spot on myself  for fun.  I am actually only training

my son and myself now since I am still a counseling student and have no

patients yet.

Connie

From:

braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf

Of Suzanne Day

Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:59 PM

To: braintrainer

Subject: Re: Protocol Decision Trees

Connie,

You ask for advice " on finding the optimal reward

frequency " and " using the protocols for learning disabilities " .

I understand your need. However, each brain is so different.

The child may have learning disability but depending on other factors

that you discover with the TLC assessment you would benefit in tailoring the

training to the individual. Did you consider requesting 's help to

determine the best training plan?

I have been more efficient since I am discussing my

TLC profiles with to determin the best protocols from the particularity

of the individual brain. After doing the TLC with a client (in fact I

have done the same thing with myself, my husband and my children) I first

analyse the profile trying to figure out the best protocols from my training

with and my growing experience and send the TLC profile to . I

make a phone appointment and discuss the best training plan for the client. The

discussion with him is really helping me to learn fast, be more efficient with

my clients, and more excited about neurofeedback training.

Suzanne Day

suzanne.day@...

Ph.

F.

web:

www.wisechoiceeducationalservices.com

Erlend,

I am very interested in Sue Othmer’s protocols. I am trying

to find the optimal reward frequency with myself and am having a hard

time. I figure if I can’t find it, I can’t help anyone

else find it.

Do you have any advice on finding that optimal reward frequency?

Do you have any experience with using the protocols with learning disabilities?

I most likely will take her training next but most likely not for 6 months or

so but in the mean time, I may play around a bit. My son is getting

so much better with his ADD using her original C3 beta protocol.

However, he also has a verbal IQ which is significantly

higher than his perceptual IQ which my indicate right brain issues (TLC does

confirm this). Also, he has many executive function

issues.

The C3 beta training is helping so much but I can help think that some of her

advanced protocols could really help too. I think coherence from front to

back could be an issue and that these protocols could help.

Thanks, Connie

From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of erlend

Sent: Saturday, January

05, 2008 1:41 AM

To: braintrainer

Subject: SV:

Protocol Decision Trees

I use

Sue Othmers protocol decision tree extensively and it works beautifully. It is,

in my opinion, absolutely not recommended to be used without attending to a

course learning Othmers approach. But used in a proper way it is a very

powerful tool to be used with many disorders.

Regards

Erlend

Norway

Fra: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] På vegne av Øystein Larsen

Sendt: 1. januar 2008

20:43

Til: braintrainer

Emne: Re:

Protocol Decision Trees

The best I ever seen was made by

Othmer...I suppose Siegfried Othmer is in this forum from time to time..

or you can have a look at their

website http://www.eeginfo.com/

best from Øystein...)

2007/12/31,

NICK MAMMANO :

I was not aware that there were protocol decision trees

devised by trainers on this site. They are a great idea and, on

reflection, I should not have been surprised that it is being done,

and probably continues to be done.

Are they proprietary -- even in an informal sense?

I have no interest in them personally because I'm a home

trainer with one " client " . For most others on the

list they clearly provide a quick and convenient way to select a

reasonable or effective protocol(s) in any given situation.

I know that the phrase " scientific credibility "

makes some people on this list shudder but sharing and comparing

listmember's protocols is a great systematic way to continuously winnow out the

" bad " , or less effective. ones and improve on those that work.

Not quite the same as a " double-blind study " , refereed and published

in a publication with some credibility, but considering the (to me)

baffling resistance to that kind of study, it's the next best thing.

nick mammano PhD. Chemical Physics

(title listed so you know " where I'm coming from " )

Can anyone share their protocol decesion trees with me. I

want to

compare them with mine.

Thanks

--Chris

--

LCSW Øystein Larsen

mob.+47 90143389

fax. +47 33462750

Biofeedback in Scandinavia

Clinics, training and equipment

Thought Technology

Roshi

[Guest guest]

Suzanne,  thanks for the good

advice.  I totally agree with you.  I know it seems like I am off somewhere

doing my own thing but for actual training I do have a mentor who uses the

TLC.  And Pete is always a great option.  I just want to learn everything

(obsessive personality – beta % all over 20!!)  So I do some things like

trying to find the sweet spot on myself  for fun.  I am actually only training

my son and myself now since I am still a counseling student and have no

patients yet.

Connie

From:

braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf

Of Suzanne Day

Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:59 PM

To: braintrainer

Subject: Re: Protocol Decision Trees

Connie,

You ask for advice " on finding the optimal reward

frequency " and " using the protocols for learning disabilities " .

I understand your need. However, each brain is so different.

The child may have learning disability but depending on other factors

that you discover with the TLC assessment you would benefit in tailoring the

training to the individual. Did you consider requesting 's help to

determine the best training plan?

I have been more efficient since I am discussing my

TLC profiles with to determin the best protocols from the particularity

of the individual brain. After doing the TLC with a client (in fact I

have done the same thing with myself, my husband and my children) I first

analyse the profile trying to figure out the best protocols from my training

with and my growing experience and send the TLC profile to . I

make a phone appointment and discuss the best training plan for the client. The

discussion with him is really helping me to learn fast, be more efficient with

my clients, and more excited about neurofeedback training.

Suzanne Day

suzanne.day@...

Ph.

F.

web:

www.wisechoiceeducationalservices.com

Erlend,

I am very interested in Sue Othmer’s protocols. I am trying

to find the optimal reward frequency with myself and am having a hard

time. I figure if I can’t find it, I can’t help anyone

else find it.

Do you have any advice on finding that optimal reward frequency?

Do you have any experience with using the protocols with learning disabilities?

I most likely will take her training next but most likely not for 6 months or

so but in the mean time, I may play around a bit. My son is getting

so much better with his ADD using her original C3 beta protocol.

However, he also has a verbal IQ which is significantly

higher than his perceptual IQ which my indicate right brain issues (TLC does

confirm this). Also, he has many executive function

issues.

The C3 beta training is helping so much but I can help think that some of her

advanced protocols could really help too. I think coherence from front to

back could be an issue and that these protocols could help.

Thanks, Connie

From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of erlend

Sent: Saturday, January

05, 2008 1:41 AM

To: braintrainer

Subject: SV:

Protocol Decision Trees

I use

Sue Othmers protocol decision tree extensively and it works beautifully. It is,

in my opinion, absolutely not recommended to be used without attending to a

course learning Othmers approach. But used in a proper way it is a very

powerful tool to be used with many disorders.

Regards

Erlend

Norway

Fra: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] På vegne av Øystein Larsen

Sendt: 1. januar 2008

20:43

Til: braintrainer

Emne: Re:

Protocol Decision Trees

The best I ever seen was made by

Othmer...I suppose Siegfried Othmer is in this forum from time to time..

or you can have a look at their

website http://www.eeginfo.com/

best from Øystein...)

2007/12/31,

NICK MAMMANO :

I was not aware that there were protocol decision trees

devised by trainers on this site. They are a great idea and, on

reflection, I should not have been surprised that it is being done,

and probably continues to be done.

Are they proprietary -- even in an informal sense?

I have no interest in them personally because I'm a home

trainer with one " client " . For most others on the

list they clearly provide a quick and convenient way to select a

reasonable or effective protocol(s) in any given situation.

I know that the phrase " scientific credibility "

makes some people on this list shudder but sharing and comparing

listmember's protocols is a great systematic way to continuously winnow out the

" bad " , or less effective. ones and improve on those that work.

Not quite the same as a " double-blind study " , refereed and published

in a publication with some credibility, but considering the (to me)

baffling resistance to that kind of study, it's the next best thing.

nick mammano PhD. Chemical Physics

(title listed so you know " where I'm coming from " )

Can anyone share their protocol decesion trees with me. I

want to

compare them with mine.

Thanks

--Chris

--

LCSW Øystein Larsen

mob.+47 90143389

fax. +47 33462750

Biofeedback in Scandinavia

Clinics, training and equipment

Thought Technology

Roshi

[Guest guest]

Suzanne,  thanks for the good

advice.  I totally agree with you.  I know it seems like I am off somewhere

doing my own thing but for actual training I do have a mentor who uses the

TLC.  And Pete is always a great option.  I just want to learn everything

(obsessive personality – beta % all over 20!!)  So I do some things like

trying to find the sweet spot on myself  for fun.  I am actually only training

my son and myself now since I am still a counseling student and have no

patients yet.

Connie

From:

braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf

Of Suzanne Day

Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:59 PM

To: braintrainer

Subject: Re: Protocol Decision Trees

Connie,

You ask for advice " on finding the optimal reward

frequency " and " using the protocols for learning disabilities " .

I understand your need. However, each brain is so different.

The child may have learning disability but depending on other factors

that you discover with the TLC assessment you would benefit in tailoring the

training to the individual. Did you consider requesting 's help to

determine the best training plan?

I have been more efficient since I am discussing my

TLC profiles with to determin the best protocols from the particularity

of the individual brain. After doing the TLC with a client (in fact I

have done the same thing with myself, my husband and my children) I first

analyse the profile trying to figure out the best protocols from my training

with and my growing experience and send the TLC profile to . I

make a phone appointment and discuss the best training plan for the client. The

discussion with him is really helping me to learn fast, be more efficient with

my clients, and more excited about neurofeedback training.

Suzanne Day

suzanne.day@...

Ph.

F.

web:

www.wisechoiceeducationalservices.com

Erlend,

I am very interested in Sue Othmer’s protocols. I am trying

to find the optimal reward frequency with myself and am having a hard

time. I figure if I can’t find it, I can’t help anyone

else find it.

Do you have any advice on finding that optimal reward frequency?

Do you have any experience with using the protocols with learning disabilities?

I most likely will take her training next but most likely not for 6 months or

so but in the mean time, I may play around a bit. My son is getting

so much better with his ADD using her original C3 beta protocol.

However, he also has a verbal IQ which is significantly

higher than his perceptual IQ which my indicate right brain issues (TLC does

confirm this). Also, he has many executive function

issues.

The C3 beta training is helping so much but I can help think that some of her

advanced protocols could really help too. I think coherence from front to

back could be an issue and that these protocols could help.

Thanks, Connie

From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of erlend

Sent: Saturday, January

05, 2008 1:41 AM

To: braintrainer

Subject: SV:

Protocol Decision Trees

I use

Sue Othmers protocol decision tree extensively and it works beautifully. It is,

in my opinion, absolutely not recommended to be used without attending to a

course learning Othmers approach. But used in a proper way it is a very

powerful tool to be used with many disorders.

Regards

Erlend

Norway

Fra: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] På vegne av Øystein Larsen

Sendt: 1. januar 2008

20:43

Til: braintrainer

Emne: Re:

Protocol Decision Trees

The best I ever seen was made by

Othmer...I suppose Siegfried Othmer is in this forum from time to time..

or you can have a look at their

website http://www.eeginfo.com/

best from Øystein...)

2007/12/31,

NICK MAMMANO :

I was not aware that there were protocol decision trees

devised by trainers on this site. They are a great idea and, on

reflection, I should not have been surprised that it is being done,

and probably continues to be done.

Are they proprietary -- even in an informal sense?

I have no interest in them personally because I'm a home

trainer with one " client " . For most others on the

list they clearly provide a quick and convenient way to select a

reasonable or effective protocol(s) in any given situation.

I know that the phrase " scientific credibility "

makes some people on this list shudder but sharing and comparing

listmember's protocols is a great systematic way to continuously winnow out the

" bad " , or less effective. ones and improve on those that work.

Not quite the same as a " double-blind study " , refereed and published

in a publication with some credibility, but considering the (to me)

baffling resistance to that kind of study, it's the next best thing.

nick mammano PhD. Chemical Physics

(title listed so you know " where I'm coming from " )

Can anyone share their protocol decesion trees with me. I

want to

compare them with mine.

Thanks

--Chris

--

LCSW Øystein Larsen

mob.+47 90143389

fax. +47 33462750

Biofeedback in Scandinavia

Clinics, training and equipment

Thought Technology

Roshi

[Guest guest]

Mark,

It's a one channel, bipolar, interhemispheric protocol: T3-T4 where

T3 is the active and T4 is the reference. Not really sure if this is

the Othmer's.

Regards,

JR

> I " ve heard from others that when you find the " sweet

spot " , all amplitudes will lower...so if you put a spectrum analyzer

up on the screen, watch for all the bins to reduce once you find the

right " sweet spot " .

> Personally, I don't do this training much, never have, but

I thought I'd pass this on.

>

>

> SV: Protocol Decision Trees

> I use Sue Othmers protocol decision tree extensively

and it works beautifully. It is, in my opinion, absolutely not

recommended to be used without attending to a course learning

Othmers approach. But used in a proper way it is a very powerful

tool to be used with many disorders.

> Regards

> Erlend

> Norway

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

-

>

> Fra: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:

braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com] På vegne av Øystein Larsen

> Sendt: 1. januar 2008 20:43

> Til: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com

> Emne: Re: Protocol Decision Trees

> The best I ever seen was made by Othmer...I

suppose Siegfried Othmer is in this forum from time to time..

> or you can have a look at their website

http://www.eeginfo. com/

> best from Øystein...)

>

>

> 2007/12/31, NICK MAMMANO <nickmammano@ yahoo.com>:

> I was not aware that there were protocol decision

trees devised by trainers on this site. They are a great idea and,

on reflection, I should not have been surprised that it is being

done, and probably continues to be done.

> Are they proprietary -- even in an informal sense?

> I have no interest in them personally because I'm a

home trainer with one " client " . For most others on the list they

clearly provide a quick and convenient way to select a reasonable or

effective protocol(s) in any given situation.

>

> I know that the phrase " scientific credibility " makes

some people on this list shudder but sharing and comparing

listmember's protocols is a great systematic way to continuously

winnow out the " bad " , or less effective. ones and improve on those

that work.

>

> Not quite the same as a " double-blind study " , refereed

and published in a publication with some credibility, but

considering the (to me) baffling resistance to that kind of study,

it's the next best thing.

> nick mammano PhD. Chemical Physics

> (title listed so you know " where I'm coming from " )

> Can anyone share their protocol decesion trees with

me. I want to

> compare them with mine.

> Thanks

> --Chris

>

>

>

>

>

> --

> LCSW Øystein Larsen

> mob.+47 90143389

> fax. +47 33462750

> Biofeedback in Scandinavia

> Clinics, training and equipment

> Thought Technology

> Roshi

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com

> http://www.brain- trainer.com

> 305/433-3160

> The Learning Curve, Inc.

>

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------

> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

>

[Guest guest]

Mark,

It's a one channel, bipolar, interhemispheric protocol: T3-T4 where

T3 is the active and T4 is the reference. Not really sure if this is

the Othmer's.

Regards,

JR

> I " ve heard from others that when you find the " sweet

spot " , all amplitudes will lower...so if you put a spectrum analyzer

up on the screen, watch for all the bins to reduce once you find the

right " sweet spot " .

> Personally, I don't do this training much, never have, but

I thought I'd pass this on.

>

>

> SV: Protocol Decision Trees

> I use Sue Othmers protocol decision tree extensively

and it works beautifully. It is, in my opinion, absolutely not

recommended to be used without attending to a course learning

Othmers approach. But used in a proper way it is a very powerful

tool to be used with many disorders.

> Regards

> Erlend

> Norway

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

-

>

> Fra: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:

braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com] På vegne av Øystein Larsen

> Sendt: 1. januar 2008 20:43

> Til: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com

> Emne: Re: Protocol Decision Trees

> The best I ever seen was made by Othmer...I

suppose Siegfried Othmer is in this forum from time to time..

> or you can have a look at their website

http://www.eeginfo. com/

> best from Øystein...)

>

>

> 2007/12/31, NICK MAMMANO <nickmammano@ yahoo.com>:

> I was not aware that there were protocol decision

trees devised by trainers on this site. They are a great idea and,

on reflection, I should not have been surprised that it is being

done, and probably continues to be done.

> Are they proprietary -- even in an informal sense?

> I have no interest in them personally because I'm a

home trainer with one " client " . For most others on the list they

clearly provide a quick and convenient way to select a reasonable or

effective protocol(s) in any given situation.

>

> I know that the phrase " scientific credibility " makes

some people on this list shudder but sharing and comparing

listmember's protocols is a great systematic way to continuously

winnow out the " bad " , or less effective. ones and improve on those

that work.

>

> Not quite the same as a " double-blind study " , refereed

and published in a publication with some credibility, but

considering the (to me) baffling resistance to that kind of study,

it's the next best thing.

> nick mammano PhD. Chemical Physics

> (title listed so you know " where I'm coming from " )

> Can anyone share their protocol decesion trees with

me. I want to

> compare them with mine.

> Thanks

> --Chris

>

>

>

>

>

> --

> LCSW Øystein Larsen

> mob.+47 90143389

> fax. +47 33462750

> Biofeedback in Scandinavia

> Clinics, training and equipment

> Thought Technology

> Roshi

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com

> http://www.brain- trainer.com

> 305/433-3160

> The Learning Curve, Inc.

>

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------

> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

>

[Guest guest]

Mark,

It's a one channel, bipolar, interhemispheric protocol: T3-T4 where

T3 is the active and T4 is the reference. Not really sure if this is

the Othmer's.

Regards,

JR

> I " ve heard from others that when you find the " sweet

spot " , all amplitudes will lower...so if you put a spectrum analyzer

up on the screen, watch for all the bins to reduce once you find the

right " sweet spot " .

> Personally, I don't do this training much, never have, but

I thought I'd pass this on.

>

>

> SV: Protocol Decision Trees

> I use Sue Othmers protocol decision tree extensively

and it works beautifully. It is, in my opinion, absolutely not

recommended to be used without attending to a course learning

Othmers approach. But used in a proper way it is a very powerful

tool to be used with many disorders.

> Regards

> Erlend

> Norway

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

-

>

> Fra: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:

braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com] På vegne av Øystein Larsen

> Sendt: 1. januar 2008 20:43

> Til: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com

> Emne: Re: Protocol Decision Trees

> The best I ever seen was made by Othmer...I

suppose Siegfried Othmer is in this forum from time to time..

> or you can have a look at their website

http://www.eeginfo. com/

> best from Øystein...)

>

>

> 2007/12/31, NICK MAMMANO <nickmammano@ yahoo.com>:

> I was not aware that there were protocol decision

trees devised by trainers on this site. They are a great idea and,

on reflection, I should not have been surprised that it is being

done, and probably continues to be done.

> Are they proprietary -- even in an informal sense?

> I have no interest in them personally because I'm a

home trainer with one " client " . For most others on the list they

clearly provide a quick and convenient way to select a reasonable or

effective protocol(s) in any given situation.

>

> I know that the phrase " scientific credibility " makes

some people on this list shudder but sharing and comparing

listmember's protocols is a great systematic way to continuously

winnow out the " bad " , or less effective. ones and improve on those

that work.

>

> Not quite the same as a " double-blind study " , refereed

and published in a publication with some credibility, but

considering the (to me) baffling resistance to that kind of study,

it's the next best thing.

> nick mammano PhD. Chemical Physics

> (title listed so you know " where I'm coming from " )

> Can anyone share their protocol decesion trees with

me. I want to

> compare them with mine.

> Thanks

> --Chris

>

>

>

>

>

> --

> LCSW Øystein Larsen

> mob.+47 90143389

> fax. +47 33462750

> Biofeedback in Scandinavia

> Clinics, training and equipment

> Thought Technology

> Roshi

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com

> http://www.brain- trainer.com

> 305/433-3160

> The Learning Curve, Inc.

>

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------

> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

Yes that is the placement the Othmer's use. Also couldn't find your arousal scale in the group files.

Mark

SV: Protocol Decision Trees> I use Sue Othmers protocol decision tree extensively and it works beautifully. It is, in my opinion, absolutely not recommended to be used without attending to a course learning Othmers approach. But used in a proper way it is a very powerful tool to be used with many disorders. > Regards> Erlend> Norway> > -----------------------------------------------------------> > Fra: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com] På vegne av Øystein Larsen> Sendt: 1. januar 2008 20:43> Til: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com> Emne: Re: Protocol Decision Trees> The best I ever seen was made by Othmer...I suppose Siegfried Othmer is in this forum from time to time..> or you can have a look at their website http://www.eeginfo. com/> best from Øystein...)> > > 2007/12/31, NICK MAMMANO <nickmammano@ yahoo.com>: > I was not aware that there were protocol decision trees devised by trainers on this site. They are a great idea and, on reflection, I should not have been surprised that it is being done, and probably continues to be done. > Are they proprietary -- even in an informal sense? > I have no interest in them personally because I'm a home trainer with one "client". For most others on the list they clearly provide a quick and convenient way to select a reasonable or effective protocol(s) in any given situation. > > I know that the phrase "scientific credibility" makes some people on this list shudder but sharing and comparing listmember's protocols is a great systematic way to continuously winnow out the "bad", or less effective. ones and improve on those that work. > > Not quite the same as a "double-blind study", refereed and published in a publication with some credibility, but considering the (to me) baffling resistance to that kind of study, it's the next best thing. > nick mammano PhD. Chemical Physics > (title listed so you know "where I'm coming from")> Can anyone share their protocol decesion trees with me. I want to > compare them with mine.> Thanks> --Chris> > > > > > -- > LCSW Øystein Larsen> mob.+47 90143389> fax. +47 33462750> Biofeedback in Scandinavia> Clinics, training and equipment> Thought Technology> Roshi > > > > > > > > > -- > Van Deusen> pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com> http://www.brain- trainer.com> 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.>

[Guest guest]

Hi

Yes that is the placement the Othmer's use. Also couldn't find your arousal scale in the group files.

Mark

SV: Protocol Decision Trees> I use Sue Othmers protocol decision tree extensively and it works beautifully. It is, in my opinion, absolutely not recommended to be used without attending to a course learning Othmers approach. But used in a proper way it is a very powerful tool to be used with many disorders. > Regards> Erlend> Norway> > -----------------------------------------------------------> > Fra: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com] På vegne av Øystein Larsen> Sendt: 1. januar 2008 20:43> Til: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com> Emne: Re: Protocol Decision Trees> The best I ever seen was made by Othmer...I suppose Siegfried Othmer is in this forum from time to time..> or you can have a look at their website http://www.eeginfo. com/> best from Øystein...)> > > 2007/12/31, NICK MAMMANO <nickmammano@ yahoo.com>: > I was not aware that there were protocol decision trees devised by trainers on this site. They are a great idea and, on reflection, I should not have been surprised that it is being done, and probably continues to be done. > Are they proprietary -- even in an informal sense? > I have no interest in them personally because I'm a home trainer with one "client". For most others on the list they clearly provide a quick and convenient way to select a reasonable or effective protocol(s) in any given situation. > > I know that the phrase "scientific credibility" makes some people on this list shudder but sharing and comparing listmember's protocols is a great systematic way to continuously winnow out the "bad", or less effective. ones and improve on those that work. > > Not quite the same as a "double-blind study", refereed and published in a publication with some credibility, but considering the (to me) baffling resistance to that kind of study, it's the next best thing. > nick mammano PhD. Chemical Physics > (title listed so you know "where I'm coming from")> Can anyone share their protocol decesion trees with me. I want to > compare them with mine.> Thanks> --Chris> > > > > > -- > LCSW Øystein Larsen> mob.+47 90143389> fax. +47 33462750> Biofeedback in Scandinavia> Clinics, training and equipment> Thought Technology> Roshi > > > > > > > > > -- > Van Deusen> pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com> http://www.brain- trainer.com> 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.>

[Guest guest]

Hi

Yes that is the placement the Othmer's use. Also couldn't find your arousal scale in the group files.

Mark

SV: Protocol Decision Trees> I use Sue Othmers protocol decision tree extensively and it works beautifully. It is, in my opinion, absolutely not recommended to be used without attending to a course learning Othmers approach. But used in a proper way it is a very powerful tool to be used with many disorders. > Regards> Erlend> Norway> > -----------------------------------------------------------> > Fra: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com] På vegne av Øystein Larsen> Sendt: 1. januar 2008 20:43> Til: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com> Emne: Re: Protocol Decision Trees> The best I ever seen was made by Othmer...I suppose Siegfried Othmer is in this forum from time to time..> or you can have a look at their website http://www.eeginfo. com/> best from Øystein...)> > > 2007/12/31, NICK MAMMANO <nickmammano@ yahoo.com>: > I was not aware that there were protocol decision trees devised by trainers on this site. They are a great idea and, on reflection, I should not have been surprised that it is being done, and probably continues to be done. > Are they proprietary -- even in an informal sense? > I have no interest in them personally because I'm a home trainer with one "client". For most others on the list they clearly provide a quick and convenient way to select a reasonable or effective protocol(s) in any given situation. > > I know that the phrase "scientific credibility" makes some people on this list shudder but sharing and comparing listmember's protocols is a great systematic way to continuously winnow out the "bad", or less effective. ones and improve on those that work. > > Not quite the same as a "double-blind study", refereed and published in a publication with some credibility, but considering the (to me) baffling resistance to that kind of study, it's the next best thing. > nick mammano PhD. Chemical Physics > (title listed so you know "where I'm coming from")> Can anyone share their protocol decesion trees with me. I want to > compare them with mine.> Thanks> --Chris> > > > > > -- > LCSW Øystein Larsen> mob.+47 90143389> fax. +47 33462750> Biofeedback in Scandinavia> Clinics, training and equipment> Thought Technology> Roshi > > > > > > > > > -- > Van Deusen> pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com> http://www.brain- trainer.com> 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.>

[Guest guest]

Hi Mark,

attached you'll find the Arousal scale excel file.

SV: Protocol Decision Trees> I use Sue Othmers protocol decision tree extensively

and it works beautifully. It is, in my opinion, absolutely not recommended to be used without attending to a course learning Othmers approach. But used in a proper way it is a very powerful tool to be used with many disorders. > Regards> Erlend> Norway> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --> > Fra: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com] På vegne av Øystein Larsen> Sendt: 1. januar 2008 20:43> Til: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com> Emne: Re: Protocol Decision Trees> The best I ever seen was made by Othmer...I suppose Siegfried Othmer is in this forum from time to time..> or you can have a look at their website http://www.eeginfo. com/> best from Øystein...)> > >

2007/12/31, NICK MAMMANO <nickmammano@ yahoo.com>: > I was not aware that there were protocol decision trees devised by trainers on this site. They are a great idea and, on reflection, I should not have been surprised that it is being done, and probably continues to be done. > Are they proprietary -- even in an informal sense? > I have no interest in them personally because I'm a home trainer with one "client". For most others on the list they clearly provide a quick and convenient way to select a reasonable or effective protocol(s) in any given situation. > > I know that the phrase "scientific credibility" makes some people on this list shudder but sharing and comparing listmember's protocols is a great systematic way to continuously winnow out the "bad", or less effective. ones and improve on those that work. > >

Not quite the same as a "double-blind study", refereed and published in a publication with some credibility, but considering the (to me) baffling resistance to that kind of study, it's the next best thing. > nick mammano PhD. Chemical Physics > (title listed so you know "where I'm coming from")> Can anyone share their protocol decesion trees with me. I want to > compare them with mine.> Thanks> --Chris> > > > > > -- > LCSW Øystein Larsen> mob.+47 90143389> fax. +47 33462750> Biofeedback in Scandinavia> Clinics, training and equipment> Thought Technology> Roshi > > > > > > > > > -- > Van Deusen> pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com> http://www.brain- trainer.com> 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ------------> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.>

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