Re: what i've learned about farming/buying land/homesteading/etc.

[Guest guest]

I never said " thanks " for this! Great summary!

We are on " only " 5 acres and I'd add the following:

1. Goats cost a LOT less than cows, just like my grandaddy said. They take

a lot less hay, and will eat stuff a cow won't. A good milk goat will give you

enough milk per day for a family, and mainly eats weeds.

2. Watch out for environmental issues! In this neck of the woods, anyway,

they are instituting laws about how many trees you can cut down. If you

want to plant, you may need to cut trees. Also arsenic levels in wells!

There are new arsenic rules, and many of the wells around here don't

qualify. And you really don't want to eat stuff that has been grown with

arsenic-laced water anyway.

3. Chickens don't need much space, esp. meat chickens. We raised ours

in a 10x12 old dog kennel ... you can bring them weeds and bugs if you

can't let them out.

Katja has more farming experience than I do, sounds like ... but it sounds like

we are both transients from the software world! The book " the Country

Encyclopedia " has been my muse for some years. Our little farm isn't

self-sufficient, but I like that we can raise food and not buy it.

-- Heidi Jean

>ok, several people mentioned they want to hear it, so here it is, in no

>particular order:

>

>- you need far less land than you think. i thought i needed 200 acres, and

>i " settled " for 150. granted, i come originally from texas, so that may

>explain it somewhat. (for what it's worth, i'm quite grateful that i am NOT

>in texas now.) if you're just an average family who wants to be

>self-sufficient and not a full-time farmer, 1-5 (mostly open) acres will be

>more than sufficient to raise some animals and plenty of vegetables. with 5

>acres, you can raise enough animals to cover your costs (ie, one cow for

>you, one cow to sell...).

[Guest guest]

oh yes - i've been meaning to pick up the country encyclopedia - it's been

highly recommended.

do you still code, heidi? do you work from farm? (i do, just a little while

longer)

i did forget to mention anything about water, it's true. definitely make

sure to have the well tested before you buy!

another thing is that each state has different land use laws wrt taxes. in

vermont, you need to have a minimum of 30 acres to qualify, but it cuts

your property taxes in half. not all the acres have to be productive here.

but the rules are different everywhere, and it's worth checking out - if

your state's rules are " minimum 6 acres " and you only bought five but you

could have bought that sixth, it's worth it for the tax savings down the road.

and, you're welcome!

katja

At 03:19 AM 6/30/2004, you wrote:

>Katja has more farming experience than I do, sounds like ... but it sounds

>like

>we are both transients from the software world! The book " the Country

>Encyclopedia " has been my muse for some years. Our little farm isn't

>self-sufficient, but I like that we can raise food and not buy it.

>

>-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

truly marie, you can't let me influence you there totally - after all, LOTS

of people have goats successfully. i just can't stand them

talk to heidi more: she likes them!

-katja

At 11:30 AM 6/30/2004, you wrote:

>Heidi:

>I LOVED This post too...I very much admire Katja's lifestyle....I really

>do...and I believe our family will move closer and closer to this each

>day..*S* Baby steps.

>I'm interested in having goats..but someone I know..*ahem* Keeps telling

>me how much hard work they are..I can just see mine escaping and nibbling

>on the hems of my farm stand customers.....Oi.....TIme will tell.

>Marie

[Guest guest]

Heidi:

I LOVED This post too...I very much admire Katja's lifestyle....I really

do...and I believe our family will move closer and closer to this each day..*S*

Baby steps.

I'm interested in having goats..but someone I know..*ahem* Keeps telling me how

much hard work they are..I can just see mine escaping and nibbling on the hems

of my farm stand customers.....Oi.....TIme will tell.

Marie

Re: what i've learned about farming/buying

land/homesteading/etc.

I never said " thanks " for this! Great summary!

We are on " only " 5 acres and I'd add the following:

1. Goats cost a LOT less than cows, just like my grandaddy said. They take

a lot less hay, and will eat stuff a cow won't. A good milk goat will give you

enough milk per day for a family, and mainly eats weeds.

[Guest guest]

Katja:

*tee hee* There are LOTS of things you've influenced me on....but I really don't

take anyone's word as gospel...*S* I just tend to take advice from all around me

and weigh my options, ultimately deciding for myself....I've heard other ppl say

that goats are a big hassle, adn I " ve heard ppl say they aren't...

I'm trying to imagine myself milking a goat...Hmmmmmmmmmmm.....although....if I

milked my own goats, I could ultimately work on selling it and products made

from it out of my stand, adn at market...*wheels turning now*

Did you have an experience with goats that made you dislike them? I've been

telling everyone about your sheep..they remind me of puppies..*S*

Marie

Re: what i've learned about farming/buying

land/homesteading/etc.

truly marie, you can't let me influence you there totally - after all, LOTS

of people have goats successfully. i just can't stand them

talk to heidi more: she likes them!

-katja

[Guest guest]

It's like cats and dogs ... some people are cat lovers and some are dog

lovers! I like goats because they are SMALL and because they eat blackberries.

We have lots of blackberries, and they sprout up everywhere. They have

gotten loose a couple of times, but don't really cause any damage (they nibble

the grape vines, but they are such browsers they never stay in one place

very long unless you force them to). I chain them to stakes around the lawn,

they have lots of browsing room, and we are getting electric fencing

to make them more portable. Also their poop just kind of disappears into

the lawn ... no big cowpiles.

Steer are better eating, I think, but you need a lot of room for them, and

in this wet area, if they don't get enough room they really tear up the

ground. And they are BIG ... we are considering getting a calf or two,

but I'd like a smaller breed? We have some Longhorn, but they are

being raised by someone else who is more comfortable with large

animals.

-- Heidi Jean

>truly marie, you can't let me influence you there totally - after all, LOTS

>of people have goats successfully. i just can't stand them

>talk to heidi more: she likes them!

>

>-katja

[Guest guest]

>oh yes - i've been meaning to pick up the country encyclopedia - it's been

>highly recommended.

>do you still code, heidi? do you work from farm? (i do, just a little while

>longer)

We aren't really a " farm " yet ... we do raise stuff for us, but it's a sideline.

We both code,

and I write books about programming, and run a yearly conference. I'm just

lately thinking

maybe of earning some money from the land, but I'd be happy if we just raise

more

of our own food!

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> - you need a LOT less living space than you think. we designed a really

> beautiful house for a family of 4 that was only 30x30, that could be built

> by the family in a summer with minimal contracting. again,

Katja,

Could you share more about your 30 X 30 house design? We want to build our

own place, but get so tangled up when trying to figure out how big and

what/where. Also, any information on how you got it done in one summer

would be appreciated.

Katja and Heidi, thanks much for all the information!

Rhea

[Guest guest]

How do you control flies with your animals so close to the house and

even on your porch on a 1 to 5 acre parcel . Got any organic

methods? We don't have a barn but sure need one! For grain and hay

storage and chores in really lousy weather . Dennis Kemnitz in KS

> ok, several people mentioned they want to hear it, so here it is,

in no

> particular order:

>

> - you need far less land than you think. i thought i needed 200

acres, and

> i " settled " for 150. granted, i come originally from texas, so that

may

> explain it somewhat. (for what it's worth, i'm quite grateful that

i am NOT

> in texas now.) if you're just an average family who wants to be

> self-sufficient and not a full-time farmer, 1-5 (mostly open) acres

will be

> more than sufficient to raise some animals and plenty of

vegetables. with 5

> acres, you can raise enough animals to cover your costs (ie, one

cow for

> you, one cow to sell...). on 1 acre, you can expect to raise all

your

> vegetables, and enough chickens to get a family of four through the

year,

> especially if you raise them in staggered groups (ie, an early

spring group

> and a midsummer group). one 1 acre, you could also expect to raise

two

> lambs to butcher weight or one milking goat. you would expect to

have every

> bit of that acre in productive use, though that doesn't mean you

can't also

> have a swing set. it just means that the kids will have to share a

playyard

> with animals. on 5 acres, you can expect two or three large animals

(which

> i'd expect to be cows, unless you also want a pony.) if you choose

a dairy

> breed of cow, such as a jersey or guernsey, you can most easily get

them

> bred (on 5 acres, you will likely have to do AI) for cheap (expect

$30 per

> breeding), and you can manage to stagger their breeding so that you

have

> milk year around. alternately, you can just buy steer calves and

raise them

> over the summer to market weight. on these 5 acres, you can also

have 2-5

> lambs and a couple of pigs, as well as the chickens and a large

productive

> garden, again, expecting to use all the land you have.

>

> - you don't need a barn for your animals - a shed will do just

fine, and

> can be built out of scrap materials.

>

>

[Guest guest]

>How do you control flies with your animals so close to the house and

>even on your porch on a 1 to 5 acre parcel . Got any organic

>methods? We don't have a barn but sure need one! For grain and hay

>storage and chores in really lousy weather . Dennis Kemnitz in KS

Funny you should mention this! We have some chickens in an old

dog kennel near the house (the " old " chickens are some ways away,

but we keep the chicks where we can see them) and the flies have

been driving me nuts.

I set out a " bug zapper " sideways over a flowerpot bottom tray ... the

tray has a piece of fresh meat in it. The flies came like crazy to the meat ...

and got zapped. Seems to be working pretty well for most flies, which

are greenbottles. I tried several water-based " fly traps " but it seems the

opening is too small, they don't get attracted enough (the scent is no

competition to chicken poop ...)

The " deer flies " are more problematic. I have no idea what attracts them. They

like the area behind our house, which is cool, but don't seem attracted to

anything but the goats (maybe I should hang a bug zapper over the goats?).

I'm still experimenting ...

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

well, we have 150 acres, but we keep our animals close to the house --

anything that's " yard " instead of " pasture " we have to mow, and it's a waste.

we keep the sheep and some chickens/ducks right up against the house (if

you do this, make sure your paint isn't peeling!). sheep poop isn't noxious

at all, and it keeps the grass nice and green. we keep 4-6 birds right up

and around the house as well, to eat the bugs. we find that if we don't

keep birds near the house, we have terrible cricket infestations. bird poop

is a bit more of a pain in the ...well! but we use a hoe and just scrape

off the deck and the porch daily - no biggie.

we also keep 50-100 birds out in the fields with the cows for pest control.

" out in the fields with the cows " starts about 150 " from our house. we have

a mobile chicken coop that we move around with the herd, so that the

chickens (who can easily slide under the electric fences between our

rotational pastures) will keep closer to the herd and keep the flies off.

we don't mind if there's bugs in the pastures where the cows aren't --

those bugs can be quite helpful in getting the cowplops processed into the

soil. just as long as the flies and stuff stay off the cows, we're happy.

it's quite common to look out and see the chickens sitting on top of a cow

or a sheep, cleaning any bugs off them.

we are also out in the booo-ooo-oonies, which means we have tons of bats

and also large flocks of wild birds (from sparrows to turkeys) who also eat

bugs. the cats have also been known to join in the cricket brigade.

we don't do anything else at all for bugs*, save a fly swatter in the house

for any that get past the chicken patrol when our daughter leaves a door

open

-katja

* ahem. we do keep one emergency bottle of wasp killer. i am deathly afraid

of wasps. i am trying really hard to work on this fear, and to come to

terms with sharing my space with wasps, and i'm trying to find something

good about them that i can appreciate. i'm failing, hence the bottle of

emergency wasp killer.

At 08:56 PM 6/30/2004, you wrote:

>How do you control flies with your animals so close to the house and

>even on your porch on a 1 to 5 acre parcel . Got any organic

>methods? We don't have a barn but sure need one! For grain and hay

>storage and chores in really lousy weather . Dennis Kemnitz in KS

[Guest guest]

hmmm, heidi. i think the problem might be that you keep the old chickens

further away. try bringing a couple of the older chickens up to the house

NOT in the dog kennel - ie, just let them range where they want around the

house. see if that improves the situation - it makes a huge difference for

us. if we move the chickens out for even a day, the bugs take over.

i should note, we had crazy bugs like this even before we had animals close

to the house: bugs are just a part of nature. i'm sure there's more cause

we have animals, but at some point a lot is just a lot.

>Funny you should mention this! We have some chickens in an old

>dog kennel near the house (the " old " chickens are some ways away,

>but we keep the chicks where we can see them) and the flies have

>been driving me nuts.

>

>I set out a " bug zapper " sideways over a flowerpot bottom tray ... the

>tray has a piece of fresh meat in it. The flies came like crazy to the

>meat ...

>and got zapped. Seems to be working pretty well for most flies, which

>are greenbottles. I tried several water-based " fly traps " but it seems the

>opening is too small, they don't get attracted enough (the scent is no

>competition to chicken poop ...)

>

>The " deer flies " are more problematic. I have no idea what attracts them. They

>like the area behind our house, which is cool, but don't seem attracted to

>anything but the goats (maybe I should hang a bug zapper over the goats?).

>I'm still experimenting ...

>

>-- Heidi Jean

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

hi, rhea:

well, if you like, i can send you the plans, and you can adapt at will.

after all, it's just a box

as for the how to get it done in a summer, mostly, you just have to want

to. i have a ton of resources also about homesteading and building your own

place - i can send you a file of URLs to get you started, if you like.

as far as what/where - here's the method that worked for us: we went on a

retreat together to a bed and breakfast on a cliff over the ocean in

rockport one november. we spent the whole time watching the waves crash

into the rocks. this in particular was a good thing because it helped us

find perspective. so, if you're not the ocean type, just go somewhere where

nature is Extremely Large, and you can see clearly that whatever problems

you're facing are not actually quite as large. that clears your head.

then, spend your whole time thinking and bantering and soaking in and

watching and for us, by the end of the weekend, we had a list of 5 things

that were important to us in our lives. once you scale things back like

that, and you have a really solid foundation there, then everytihng else is

a lot easier. will this new dress contribute to my 5 things? does this

piece of property fit our 5 things? does that part of the country work with

our 5 things? etc.

in the end, the truth is there are MANY pieces of land and MANY houses that

would make you happy, and all you have to do is find *one* of them. but

it's much easier to do if you have really truly identified what you want

and what will make you happy.

so...uh...if you want plans and stuff, i'm happy to send them over - just

ping me offlist!

katja

>Katja,

>

>Could you share more about your 30 X 30 house design? We want to build our

>own place, but get so tangled up when trying to figure out how big and

>what/where. Also, any information on how you got it done in one summer

>would be appreciated.

>

>Katja and Heidi, thanks much for all the information!

>

>Rhea

[Guest guest]

>hmmm, heidi. i think the problem might be that you keep the old chickens

>further away. try bringing a couple of the older chickens up to the house

>NOT in the dog kennel - ie, just let them range where they want around the

>house. see if that improves the situation - it makes a huge difference for

>us. if we move the chickens out for even a day, the bugs take over.

They do range where they want ... their nighttime coop is in the front

yard, and they do spend a lot of time where the flies are. They just

aren't into eating flies! The bug zapper is doing a nice job though.

So satisfying, that " Pzzzzzat! " .

I've been letting the " new chickens " out now, and they are all sort

of hanging out together. The ducks seem to like to hang out

with the chickens too. Some of the new ones are bantams though,

and they fly up into the trees and on the roof, so they should do

even more " debugging " .

>i should note, we had crazy bugs like this even before we had animals close

>to the house: bugs are just a part of nature. i'm sure there's more cause

>we have animals, but at some point a lot is just a lot.

I've found the chickens REALLY keep down the bugs (except flies and

mosquitoes). We used to have hundreds of spiders, and little crawly

things in the dirt ... those are gone. Not many slugs either. Haven't ever

seen a tick or fleas on the cat. We have lots of native birds too, and

they seem to get the caterpillars off the trees and the wasps (sorry

about yours, but we just don't get them, I've seen maybe one or two,

though we had hundreds at our old place which is just a few miles

away).

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Look into EM, Effective Microorganisms, for fly control. I've just

started using it on our farm and the flies are MUCH less! And our

animals are near the house too.

Becky

>

> >How do you control flies with your animals so close to the house

and

> >even on your porch on a 1 to 5 acre parcel . Got any organic

> >methods? We don't have a barn but sure need one! For grain and hay

> >storage and chores in really lousy weather . Dennis Kemnitz in KS

[Guest guest]

From what I have read in the " Humanure Book " and the " Chicken

Tractor " , I would suggest the following: Gather up the poop on the

porch daily and put it in a strip somewhere where you'd like a nice

lawn. Cover it with a layer of dirt, compost, hay, or cut weeds. This

should be thick enough to deter any maggots from digging out. The flies

won't dig in as well. Do this for a week or so, then move to a new plot

(even one right beside the old one). Cover the finished pile with a

layer of dirt or compost. This could be a lot of work but you should

end up with minimal smell or flies and a very fertile patch of ground

next year. Beyond that, I'm afraid that dealing with the flies might be

a matter of chance and fly-paper.

By the way, don't let your animals have all the joy of the

crickets. Eat them yourselves. With minimal preparation, they make a

get roasted snack and high-protein powder.

Geoffrey Tolle

[Deletions]

> we keep 4-6 birds right up and around the house as

> well, to eat the bugs. we find that if we don't

> keep birds near the house, we have terrible cricket

> infestations. bird poop is a bit more of a pain in the

> ...well! but we use a hoe and just scrape off the deck

> and the porch daily - no biggie.

[Deletions]

> we don't do anything else at all for bugs*, save a fly

> swatter in the house for any that get past the chicken

> patrol when our daughter leaves a door open.

[Deletions]

[Guest guest]

Beat me to it! I was going to suggest looking into EM as well.

If you're interested, it's basically a bacterial culture, consisting

of a lot of the beneficial bacteria that we have sterilized out of

our environment.

Apparently very effective for odour control on farms. That and about

a billion other uses...

Alim.

> Look into EM, Effective Microorganisms, for fly control. I've just

> started using it on our farm and the flies are MUCH less! And our

> animals are near the house too.

>

> Becky

>