Guest guest Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Hi, I am Italian 37years old, I live in France, I was reading some articles on related subjects as meditation, effect of sound on the brain, binaural beats, and I have ended up reading about neurofeedback. If I would start doing something to improve my capabilities (in particular memory and concentration) I think I will go for neurofeedback for the fact of having real feedback and to avoid spending time in something without been sure that I am doing correctly. On the website of neurobit: http://www.neurobitsystems.com/ it seems quite easy, I mean it is a small device with affortable price and with 7 trainings (* Depth * Alpha-theta * Relax * Focus * Peak * Attention * Energy) so once I select my training it seems that I can have the effect that I wish. But is it really so easy? when I read your posts it seems that things are much more complex. Would be Neurobit just a good starting point? Or is it just commecrial to convince people to buy the product and to get easily results? Thanks, ilario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Ilario, As far as I can tell from the pricing on the site, it would cost around $900 to purchase Neurobit's standalone training system with 3 electrodes. I presume that is where the " built-in " training systems exist, since there is no indication of any training protocols included in the BioEra or BioExplorer packages. It's rather hard to tell from the information or pictures, but it appears to me that this is a one-channel amplifier. For $1250 you could get a Pocket A3, which is also capable of standalone training, but has 2 channels (so it could be used to train coherence and synchrony and symmetry between sites, etc.) One channel means you can train one place at a time. Two channels means you could train two different places to do the same thing--or two different things--or train relationships between the sites--at the same time. The Pocket also works with BioExplorer or BioEra, but it can also be used to train blood flow for attention, executive function, etc., which the neurobit cannot. It costs $1400 to purchase the Neurobit with BioExplorer and the same 3 electrodes. That's about $400 MORE than an equivalent system with a Pendant or Focus amplifier and BioExplorer. The Neurobit comes with 3 electrodes, and the price I am mentioning comes with 4 head electrodes and a set of earclips, all of solid silver. The Neurobit appears to be a single channel amplifier, while both of the others are 2-channel amplifiers. The preset protocols are indeed very simple. They all train percent amplitude, and many of them train only one frequency. The electrodes appear to include a single head electrode and a pair of earclips, so all training will be monopolar. The neurobit does include a built-in impedance meter, which none of the ones I've mentioned do. I guess my bottom line on this option would be that yes, if you don't really want to learn anything about neurofeedback and you are willing to bet $900 that your brain will respond in ways that will help you achieve whatever changes you want based on one of these 7 simple protocols, then it does appear to be a decent purchase for the standalone system. You give up any potential for doing more complex trainings, and you give up the ability to grow very far in order to get that simplicity. But if it works, it works. The benefit of the Pocket, the Pendant or the Focus is that you can do the same simple protocols with any of them, but you also have enough room to grow to the most complex protocols, like 's entropy protocol, without buying any more hardware. I would generally recommend getting Bioexplorer with your machine, since even the Pocket, which has more training options and more complex options built in than the Neurobit Lite, has pretty limited feedback options. With BioExplorer you add a lot more options for training and for feedback (sounds, DVD's, video files, games, etc.) The downside of getting into NF using one of these more powerfult systems is that you do have to learn a bit--or get some support. You have to learn to find more sites than the 4 recommended by Neurobit lite. You have to learn to do good hookups (which you would have to do in any case). And you might end up wanting to learn more about your brain and how it works and why you might feel anxious or depressed or foggy or angry or be unable to remember what you read or...well, you understand. The upside is that you are not limited to 7 simplified training options to make the changes you want to make. Pete Hi,I am Italian 37years old, I live in France, I was reading somearticles on related subjects as meditation, effect of sound on thebrain, binaural beats, and I have ended up reading about neurofeedback. If I would start doing something to improve my capabilities (inparticular memory and concentration) I think I will go for neurofeedback for the fact of having real feedback and to avoidspending time in something without been sure that I am doing correctly. On the website of neurobit: http://www.neurobitsystems.com/ it seems quite easy, I mean it is a small device with affortable priceand with 7 trainings (* Depth * Alpha-theta * Relax * Focus * Peak * Attention * Energy) so once I select my training it seems that I canhave the effect that I wish.But is it really so easy?when I read your posts it seems that things are much more complex.Would be Neurobit just a good starting point? Or is it just commecrial to convince people to buy the product and toget easily results? .. -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 Dear Pete, thanks for your detailed response. My intention is to learn, so it is to use SW as BioEra or BioExplorer and to connect the device to the PC, therefore if a two channel amplifier device gives me more possibility .... then I will go for Pedant or Focus. By the way, the technical spec of neurobit is available here: http://www.neurobitsystems.com/it/neurobitlite-data.pdf As far as I can understand is only one channel. For comparison, the price of 900,00 includes 20% VTA, for other products I will have to added it because I will have to pay that to the customs when shipping. Nevertheless, what do you suggest between EEG Pendant and QDS Focus? What else should I pick out from the order form? - Silver electrode? how many? - Pair Silver Ear Clips? - Conductive paste? - Abrasive gel? - Tool that checks the correct connection of the electrode? Is there a package that includes all what I need? Maybe I should just let you fill the order form for me ... could you do that and send it to me personally (amore_perro@...) Furthermore, I would prefer giving my credit cart number by phone rather then send it by traditional mail. Is that possible? Do you know how long does it take shipping to Europe? Is it possible to order also a guide book like " Getting Started with Neurofeedback by N. Demos " from this site? About the SW I was more considering BioEra, which a part of been cheaper is also available in open source and trial version. But I see that most of people in your forum use BioExplorer. Does it have many advantages? > You have to learn to find more sites What does it means? What are the " sites " ? Thank you, ilario > > > Hi, > > I am Italian 37years old, I live in France, I was reading some > > articles on related subjects as meditation, effect of sound on the > > brain, binaural beats, and I have ended up reading about neurofeedback. > > If I would start doing something to improve my capabilities (in > > particular memory and concentration) I think I will go for > > neurofeedback for the fact of having real feedback and to avoid > > spending time in something without been sure that I am doing correctly. > > > > On the website of neurobit: > > http://www.neurobitsystems.com/ > > it seems quite easy, I mean it is a small device with affortable price > > and with 7 trainings (* Depth * Alpha-theta * Relax * Focus * Peak * > > Attention * Energy) so once I select my training it seems that I can > > have the effect that I wish. > > > > But is it really so easy? > > when I read your posts it seems that things are much more complex. > > > > Would be Neurobit just a good starting point? > > Or is it just commecrial to convince people to buy the product and to > > get easily results? > > . > > > -- > Van Deusen > pvdtlc@... > http://www.brain-trainer.com > 305/433-3160 > The Learning Curve, Inc. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 Dear Pete, thanks for your detailed response. My intention is to learn, so it is to use SW as BioEra or BioExplorer and to connect the device to the PC, therefore if a two channel amplifier device gives me more possibility .... then I will go for Pedant or Focus. By the way, the technical spec of neurobit is available here: http://www.neurobitsystems.com/it/neurobitlite-data.pdf As far as I can understand is only one channel. For comparison, the price of 900,00 includes 20% VTA, for other products I will have to added it because I will have to pay that to the customs when shipping. Nevertheless, what do you suggest between EEG Pendant and QDS Focus? What else should I pick out from the order form? - Silver electrode? how many? - Pair Silver Ear Clips? - Conductive paste? - Abrasive gel? - Tool that checks the correct connection of the electrode? Is there a package that includes all what I need? Maybe I should just let you fill the order form for me ... could you do that and send it to me personally (amore_perro@...) Furthermore, I would prefer giving my credit cart number by phone rather then send it by traditional mail. Is that possible? Do you know how long does it take shipping to Europe? Is it possible to order also a guide book like " Getting Started with Neurofeedback by N. Demos " from this site? About the SW I was more considering BioEra, which a part of been cheaper is also available in open source and trial version. But I see that most of people in your forum use BioExplorer. Does it have many advantages? > You have to learn to find more sites What does it means? What are the " sites " ? Thank you, ilario > > > Hi, > > I am Italian 37years old, I live in France, I was reading some > > articles on related subjects as meditation, effect of sound on the > > brain, binaural beats, and I have ended up reading about neurofeedback. > > If I would start doing something to improve my capabilities (in > > particular memory and concentration) I think I will go for > > neurofeedback for the fact of having real feedback and to avoid > > spending time in something without been sure that I am doing correctly. > > > > On the website of neurobit: > > http://www.neurobitsystems.com/ > > it seems quite easy, I mean it is a small device with affortable price > > and with 7 trainings (* Depth * Alpha-theta * Relax * Focus * Peak * > > Attention * Energy) so once I select my training it seems that I can > > have the effect that I wish. > > > > But is it really so easy? > > when I read your posts it seems that things are much more complex. > > > > Would be Neurobit just a good starting point? > > Or is it just commecrial to convince people to buy the product and to > > get easily results? > > . > > > -- > Van Deusen > pvdtlc@... > http://www.brain-trainer.com > 305/433-3160 > The Learning Curve, Inc. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2008 Report Share Posted July 13, 2008 Rob, Help me understand this, if you will. It appears that, if you were to purchase the Neurobit Lite in Europe from another EU country, you would pay a VAT tax of 22%. If you buy from outside the EU, you pay duty, which according to your post, was about 25%--except that we put a value on the devices that was lower than the actual market value, so you got, let's say, a $570 Focus for $500 including customs duties. We've also had quite a few buyers from Brazil, the EU and other parts of the world with these severe taxation policies, who had the items sent to a friend or family member in the US and brought over with a visitor at no tax. For items like BioExplorer and the QuickStart package and many of the games and video files, since we use the internet to distribute them, there is no tax at all. Is there an equivalent way to avoid the VAT from a European distributor, or do they take a pretty severe chance if they try to minimize or avoid it? Thanks, Pete Ilario,Don't forget about customs charges.Just to give you an idea:I'm from the UK. The value on my package was stated as $400. I had to pay another $100 for customs and administrative charges before they would release my package to me. I am now very reluctant to purchase from out of Europe, but sometimes we have no choice.I personally went for the QDS Focus as I had heard great reviews about it and it has less noise. Have a look at this link: http://www.brain-trainer.com/FocusReview.doc ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com 305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2008 Report Share Posted July 13, 2008 Rob, Help me understand this, if you will. It appears that, if you were to purchase the Neurobit Lite in Europe from another EU country, you would pay a VAT tax of 22%. If you buy from outside the EU, you pay duty, which according to your post, was about 25%--except that we put a value on the devices that was lower than the actual market value, so you got, let's say, a $570 Focus for $500 including customs duties. We've also had quite a few buyers from Brazil, the EU and other parts of the world with these severe taxation policies, who had the items sent to a friend or family member in the US and brought over with a visitor at no tax. For items like BioExplorer and the QuickStart package and many of the games and video files, since we use the internet to distribute them, there is no tax at all. Is there an equivalent way to avoid the VAT from a European distributor, or do they take a pretty severe chance if they try to minimize or avoid it? Thanks, Pete Ilario,Don't forget about customs charges.Just to give you an idea:I'm from the UK. The value on my package was stated as $400. I had to pay another $100 for customs and administrative charges before they would release my package to me. I am now very reluctant to purchase from out of Europe, but sometimes we have no choice.I personally went for the QDS Focus as I had heard great reviews about it and it has less noise. Have a look at this link: http://www.brain-trainer.com/FocusReview.doc ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com 305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2008 Report Share Posted July 13, 2008 Hi ,I have to clarify something first, as I believe it came across the wrong way.The extra $100 I had to pay on a parcel that was declared as $400 came from both the customs charge and an administration charge from the courier over here in the UK.The courier charged about $26The rest was the duty charge by customs.Most goods arriving in the UK from outside the EU are liable to any or all of the following taxes: customs duty excise duty import VATThe only way to bypass this extra charge is to declare that the value is worth less than $35 and is classed as a gift.Here is an interesting quote I found from the customs website:"Where the value of gifts is below £290 per consignment a flat rate of duty of 3.5% will be applied, but only if it is to your advantage."Feel free to try to decipher their site: HM Revenue & Customs Hope that helps some.Rob> > > Ilario,> >> > Don't forget about customs charges.> >> > Just to give you an idea:> >> > I'm from the UK. The value on my package was stated as $400. I had to pay> > another $100 for customs and administrative charges before they would> > release my package to me.> > I am now very reluctant to purchase from out of Europe, but sometimes we> > have no choice.> >> > I personally went for the QDS Focus as I had heard great reviews about it> > and it has less noise.> >> > Have a look at this link: http://www.brain-trainer.com/FocusReview.doc> > .> >> >> -- > Van Deusen> pvdtlc@...> http://www.brain-trainer.com> 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2008 Report Share Posted July 13, 2008 Hi ,I have to clarify something first, as I believe it came across the wrong way.The extra $100 I had to pay on a parcel that was declared as $400 came from both the customs charge and an administration charge from the courier over here in the UK.The courier charged about $26The rest was the duty charge by customs.Most goods arriving in the UK from outside the EU are liable to any or all of the following taxes: customs duty excise duty import VATThe only way to bypass this extra charge is to declare that the value is worth less than $35 and is classed as a gift.Here is an interesting quote I found from the customs website:"Where the value of gifts is below £290 per consignment a flat rate of duty of 3.5% will be applied, but only if it is to your advantage."Feel free to try to decipher their site: HM Revenue & Customs Hope that helps some.Rob> > > Ilario,> >> > Don't forget about customs charges.> >> > Just to give you an idea:> >> > I'm from the UK. The value on my package was stated as $400. I had to pay> > another $100 for customs and administrative charges before they would> > release my package to me.> > I am now very reluctant to purchase from out of Europe, but sometimes we> > have no choice.> >> > I personally went for the QDS Focus as I had heard great reviews about it> > and it has less noise.> >> > Have a look at this link: http://www.brain-trainer.com/FocusReview.doc> > .> >> >> -- > Van Deusen> pvdtlc@...> http://www.brain-trainer.com> 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2008 Report Share Posted July 13, 2008 Ilario, The trade in goods between Switzerland and the UK is part of the free trade agreement between Switzerland and the EU. Nearly all industrial products of Swiss origin can be imported into the UK duty free. Rob > > > > > > > Ilario, > > > > > > > > Don't forget about customs charges. > > > > > > > > Just to give you an idea: > > > > > > > > I'm from the UK. The value on my package was stated as $400. I had > > to pay > > > > another $100 for customs and administrative charges before they > > would > > > > release my package to me. > > > > I am now very reluctant to purchase from out of Europe, but > > sometimes we > > > > have no choice. > > > > > > > > I personally went for the QDS Focus as I had heard great reviews > > about it > > > > and it has less noise. > > > > > > > > Have a look at this link: > > http://www.brain-trainer.com/FocusReview.doc > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Van Deusen > > > pvdtlc@ > > > http://www.brain-trainer.com > > > 305/433-3160 > > > The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2008 Report Share Posted July 13, 2008 Ilario, The trade in goods between Switzerland and the UK is part of the free trade agreement between Switzerland and the EU. Nearly all industrial products of Swiss origin can be imported into the UK duty free. Rob > > > > > > > Ilario, > > > > > > > > Don't forget about customs charges. > > > > > > > > Just to give you an idea: > > > > > > > > I'm from the UK. The value on my package was stated as $400. I had > > to pay > > > > another $100 for customs and administrative charges before they > > would > > > > release my package to me. > > > > I am now very reluctant to purchase from out of Europe, but > > sometimes we > > > > have no choice. > > > > > > > > I personally went for the QDS Focus as I had heard great reviews > > about it > > > > and it has less noise. > > > > > > > > Have a look at this link: > > http://www.brain-trainer.com/FocusReview.doc > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Van Deusen > > > pvdtlc@ > > > http://www.brain-trainer.com > > > 305/433-3160 > > > The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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