RE: Organic Food: Malnutrition without Poison

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

>

July 6, 2004

> Re: Organic Food: Malnutrition without Poison

>

>Hi,

>I am sorry to barge in on this conversation. I am very interested though. I

>have 5 acres that I let somebody graze their sheep every year free. They

>haven't been using it though as they sold their sheep. My neighbor next to

>me has horses that they breed and one pet cow and wanted to use it. I told

>her when we move there I wanted to raise a cow and goat and just have them

>graze so they be be grazed only. She said that her family owns a cattle

>ranch in Nevada and that she grew up there and you can't raise cattle

>without extra grain that they would die. This has been causing me so much

>confusion because I have been lurking a long time on this list and I ageed

>with most of what is said here but I thought if she grew up with cows etc

>she must know. Could it possibly be true that some of these people

>would not

>know they can graze their animals and not feed grains etc?

Hi Sheila,

I think it's possible that, if the soil fertility is low, then the cattle

would at least degenerate (if not eventually die prematurely) in response to

the degenerate soil they are feeding from. But remember that we humans

degenerate when we don't get the full allotment and spectrum of nutrients as

nature intended, so why would cows be any different? I've read that soil

grasses are often as low as 4-8 brix, whereas 20 brix is excellent quality,

albeit rare these days. It seems that 4 brix pasture probably cannot sustain

health, but i don't know if it cannot sustain life, for a period, anyway.

I thought the

>reason farmers or ranchers fed grain etc is because they didn't have enough

>land or they wanted them fatter or heavier for a better profit or to get a

>milder taste.

Yes, and partly because the protein content of the grass they are grazing on

can't sustain the growth the farmers' require (at least this is the case

with dairy cows and milk production). Now, typically they try to fatten them

up quickly for market. But aside from that, I was reading last night (don't

recall the source - either Albrecht or Beddoe) that low fertility soil

produces low protein grasses. So likely there wouldn't be enough protein to

sustain good health even if they weren't being rushed to market.

Conversely, high fertility soil will absolutely be able to sustain cattle. I

have no idea how quickly they'd fatten on high brix grass as compared to low

brix grass supplemented with grains, but that's neither here nor there in

terms of their survivability. I mean, sheesh, cattle were around and feeding

on grass long before humans started feeding them grains. So the statement

that they would die, carte blanche, while feeding on their natural diet

(that they've been surviving on for millenia) is ridiculous.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

----------------------------

July 6, 2004

In a message dated 7/6/04 7:40:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> Didn't finish my thought. *Quality* and *composition* of our diet, or a

> cow's are BOTH important. You can feed a cow a high quality grain-based

> diet, but they are going to be missing some essential nutrients in order to

> maintain their health, and you can feed a cow a low quality grass-based diet

> but they will still be missing some nutrients in order to maintain good

> health.

I've wondered about this. Since it is likely that a cow fed exclusively on

open-pollinated grain from good soil has simply never existed, I've wondered

how much of the grain-feeding problem is due to grain per se, and how much is

due to *hybrid* grain.

Chris

July 6, 2004

> >> I know a few organic farmers are willing

> to make this sacrifice <<

>

> So, is there organic food also " malnutrition without poison " ?

> This whole debate is utterly pointless, since you have

> missed my point at every turn.

Sorry Christie:

I didn't realize that it was I who was missing the point at every

turn. I guess my comprehension skills have been lowered by all the

organic malnutrition without poison food I have consumed.

btw, I actually meant to say, " I know few organic farmers are

willing to make this sacrifice. "

I don't buy a bushel of apples because one or two of them aren't

rotten.

Chi

July 6, 2004

> If you don't have enough land, you can feed cattle hay and they'll be ok

> (fresh grass is better, but in most parts of the country it isn't

available

> all year round anyway). But grain makes cows FAT which makes for

> more profit. To have a " prime " beef the beef must be marbelled, which

> can be done on grass but it takes longer ... since corn is subsidized,

> it is artificially cheap and easy to feed.

>

> I have heard that you MUST grain feed to get the steer tender, but

> really, I haven't seen that happen in real life. Our last steer was 7

years

> old, never confined, fed grass up to his last meal, and the meat

> is wonderful (we did age it some though).

>

> -- Heidi Jean

>

Thanks Heidi

So as long as you can buy hay you can feed cows if you don't have enough

pasture and they would be healthy?

SheilaN

>

July 7, 2004

----- Original Message -----

From: " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@...>

>

> Hi Sheila,

>

> I think it's possible that, if the soil fertility is low, then the cattle

> would at least degenerate (if not eventually die prematurely) in response

to

> the degenerate soil they are feeding from.

Yes I have been reading more about this. I have heard about replenishing the

soil for many years but I don't really know much about it. I joined the brix

site you posted but have been gone so haven't read much there.

I saw something about clover being a good thing to plant to replenish the

soil. Also my brother told me it was good idea to let people let their sheep

graze on our land because of their little hoofs churn it up and their waste

will fertilize it. I guess this is a duh. I don't live on the land yet they

have rules about size of house etc and we haven't built yet. Thank goodness

they allow some animals.

Suze:

So the statement

> that they would die, carte blanche, while feeding on their natural diet

> (that they've been surviving on for millenia) is ridiculous.

>

That's what I thought. Of course I didn't think about the breed factor that

Katya brought up. Also my soil is I think clay. I don't know if that is good

or bad but I'd guess the animals would go where the food is good if they

were no fences and open land.

Thanks, SheilaN

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

> http://www.westonaprice.org

>

> ----------------------------

> " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

> heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our

times. " --

> Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

> University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

> The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> <http://www.thincs.org>

> ----------------------------

>

July 7, 2004

> Re: Organic Food: Malnutrition without Poison

>>

>Thanks Heidi

>So as long as you can buy hay you can feed cows if you don't have enough

>pasture and they would be healthy?

>SheilaN

I addressed this in my last post. NO, they will not automatically be healthy

if the *quality* of the hay is low. Let me put it another way:

QUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALIT

Y

taking the lead from katja :-) Hay-fed and grass-fed are no more a guarentee

of nutritional quality than the organic label is. YES, they provide certain

nutrients that grains don't, but they don't automatically provide the

quantity and spectrum of nutrients required for good health.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

>

July 7, 2004

>Thanks Heidi

>So as long as you can buy hay you can feed cows if you don't have enough

>pasture and they would be healthy?

>SheilaN

Well, there's probably more to it than that (as some others have

pointed out) but the steer I've been getting mainly get grass.

And some alfalfa when that is cheap. And a mineral/salt lick.

But no grain.

Not all grass is equal ... some is higher in protein etc. But really,

look at the herds of bison that used to roam here ... thousands

and thousands of 'em and they mainly ate grass (some seed heads

when they could get them, but mainly grass). Wild horses did

ok too, and wild longhorn.

Hay is just dried grass, and in many places, the grass dries standing

up and the cattle eat it. Or the paw the snow away from it and

eat it during the winter. They live off grass.

Now GRAIN they rarely got ... grasses only go to seed in season,

and while the cattle will eat all the seedheads they can, they don't

get a chance to most of the time. In fact, too much grain kills

cattle. In the feedlots they feed the steer large amounts of antibiotic

just to keep them *alive* on a high-grain diet. Otherwise they get

acidosis. But it is the cheapest way to make a fat steer. The fact

the fat has the incorrect levels of Omega 6 etc. is beside the point ...

the market doesn't pay (currently) by the TYPE of fat, it pays

per pound and for marbelled steak.

-- Heidi Jean

July 7, 2004

> I addressed this in my last post. NO, they will not automatically be

healthy

> if the *quality* of the hay is low. Let me put it another way:

>

QUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALITYQUALIT

>

> Suze Fisher

Thank you Suze, I understood that part, I always feed my animals the best I

can find in my research. I was just wondering if it was possible to buy feed

that was good enough to sustain them if I run out of good pasture. And if it

would still be healthy. I will try to improve my soil etc and buy the best

as I do for my dogs (rawfed) and my son's Chinchillas.

Thanks, SheilaN

July 7, 2004

> Re: Organic Food: Malnutrition without Poison

>taking the lead from katja :-) Hay-fed and grass-fed are no more a

>guarentee

>of nutritional quality than the organic label is. YES, they provide certain

>nutrients that grains don't, but they don't automatically provide the

>quantity and spectrum of nutrients required for good health.

Didn't finish my thought. *Quality* and *composition* of our diet, or a

cow's are BOTH important. You can feed a cow a high quality grain-based

diet, but they are going to be missing some essential nutrients in order to

maintain their health, and you can feed a cow a low quality grass-based diet

but they will still be missing some nutrients in order to maintain good

health. It is the same for humans. I could eat a vegetarian diet of very

high quality foods, but I'd be missing some essential nutrients only found

in animal foods. OR, I could eat a SAD diet that includes both plant and

animal foods, and it would still be missing some important nutrients due to

the poor quality. Cows grazed on low brix/low soil fertility pasture are the

equivalent of human SADers. And from what I understand, low brix pasture

grass is the norm.

You must feed BOTH good quality and proper composition to maintain good

health, and ultimately to obtain radiant health.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

>

July 7, 2004

>>>... because there is nothing in organic certification that

requires farmers to do anything to increase, maintain, or improve soil

fertility or the nutritional content of their foods.<<<

I don't know about anyone else, but where I am (Tasmania, Australia) when you

think/learn/talk about 'organics', it's not only about removing the chemicals,

it's the whole package of composting/soil-conditioning, fertilising with manure

and seaweed extract, mulching, companion-planting, etc., etc., etc.,. I assume

these are the things that improve the nutrition of the crop as well as reduce

the pests. I don't know how anyone else grows 'organic' produce with only

removing the chemicals.

Cheers,

Tas'.

July 7, 2004

> Re: Organic Food: Malnutrition without Poison

>

>Not all grass is equal ... some is higher in protein etc. But really,

>look at the herds of bison that used to roam here ... thousands

>and thousands of 'em and they mainly ate grass (some seed heads

>when they could get them, but mainly grass). Wild horses did

>ok too, and wild longhorn.

But they selected the grasses in certain areas and ignored others. It wasn't

just grass, per se, they were looking for, but the RIGHT grass.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

http://www.thenewhomemaker.com/

----------------------------

July 7, 2004

In a message dated 7/7/04 12:05:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ynos@...

writes:

> How does companion planting improve the nutritional value of the

> crop? Mulching is done at the expense of the nutritional value of

> the crop. Composting organic matter grown on low soil fertility

> creates composted organic matter with little fertilizer value and

> is, at best, robbing to pay . Manure, or what comes out

> one end, depends on the nutritional value of the food that went in

> the other end. Food from low soil fertility is turned into manure

> with low fertility value.

I realize you can't reproduce the entire works of Albrecht et al. here, but

how about giving a brief couple paragraphs describe what ARE good ways to

improve soil?

Chris

July 7, 2004

>

> Now GRAIN they rarely got ... grasses only go to seed in season,

> and while the cattle will eat all the seedheads they can, they don't

> get a chance to most of the time. In fact, too much grain kills

> cattle. In the feedlots they feed the steer large amounts of

antibiotic

> just to keep them *alive* on a high-grain diet. Otherwise they get

> acidosis. But it is the cheapest way to make a fat steer. The fact

> the fat has the incorrect levels of Omega 6 etc. is beside the

point ...

> the market doesn't pay (currently) by the TYPE of fat, it pays

> per pound and for marbelled steak.

>

> -- Heidi Jean

Your comment about using antibiotics during grain fattening of

cattle, made me wonder why some beef is advertised as antibiotic and

hormone free, but is still grain fed the last few weeks before

slaughter. This doesn't make sense. I guess a few phone calls may be

in order to check up on such processors of beef. Buyer beware!

Fortunately my dh and I buy grass fed beef and know the rancher

personally. It feels wonderful knowing the source of our beef is

local and properly cared for long before it is set upon the dinner

table to be eaten.

Sheila

July 7, 2004

> >>>... because there is nothing in organic certification that

> requires farmers to do anything to increase, maintain, or improve

soil

> fertility or the nutritional content of their foods.<<<

>

> I don't know about anyone else, but where I am (Tasmania,

Australia) when you think/learn/talk about 'organics', it's not only

about removing the chemicals, it's the whole package of

composting/soil-conditioning, fertilising with manure and seaweed

extract, mulching, companion-planting, etc., etc., etc.,. I assume

these are the things that improve the nutrition of the crop as well

as reduce the pests. I don't know how anyone else grows 'organic'

produce with only removing the chemicals.

>

> Cheers,

> Tas'.

How does companion planting improve the nutritional value of the

crop? Mulching is done at the expense of the nutritional value of

the crop. Composting organic matter grown on low soil fertility

creates composted organic matter with little fertilizer value and

is, at best, robbing to pay . Manure, or what comes out

one end, depends on the nutritional value of the food that went in

the other end. Food from low soil fertility is turned into manure

with low fertility value.

Chi

July 7, 2004

> I've wondered about this. Since it is likely that a cow

> fed exclusively on open-pollinated grain from good soil

> has simply never existed, I've wondered how much of the

> grain-feeding problem is due to grain per se, and how much is

> due to *hybrid* grain.

Hi Chris:

At its best, even open-pollinated corn grown on high soil fertility

is a fattening food, a " go " food, not a " grow " food as Albrecht puts

it.

Chi

July 7, 2004

>Cows grazed on low brix/low soil fertility pasture are the

>equivalent of human SADers. And from what I understand, low brix pasture

>grass is the norm.

>

>You must feed BOTH good quality and proper composition to maintain good

>health, and ultimately to obtain radiant health.

Suze:

I'm not sure that is really an apt analogy ... a cow eating low-brix

grass is like a car with low-octane gas. A cow eating corn is like

putting diesel oil or sugar water in your tank instead of gas.

Wild ruminants eat good grass and poor grass, but basically they

do ok. So do most pastured cattle. There might be some

shortage of something in the grass ... say, selenium, in which case

a wild cattle will go lick a rock somewhere or find some pasture that

does have that element (like the inland humans traded for iodine

containing seafood ...). And on a farm, the farmer will provide a mineral

lick to do more or less the same thing. The cow might grow slower or

be smaller, but it will usually be in decent health. The fat it has will be

probably yellow (from carotene) and will have a decent Omega 6 to 3 ratio.

Cattle might do REALLY GOOD on some ideal diet, but they are

designed to adapt to less than ideal conditions.

But put a cow on a grain diet, and it gets fat and unhealthy quickly.

Even if it is high-brix organic grain. And the fat will be high in Omega 6's.

It starts getting high bacterial counts of the wrong sort of bacteria.

It gets the nastier strain of e-coli in it's gut. Cattle are just not designed

to live off corn.

A human living in a harsh part of the world might not get ideal

food, or even not enough food at all. But a human on SAD is more

like a steer eating corn ... it's just not food that people can handle,

aside from the low nutritional content.

>But they selected the grasses in certain areas and ignored others. It wasn't

>just grass, per se, they were looking for, but the RIGHT grass.

(from another post) ... I agree, and ideally, cattle

are pastured in BIG pastures where they can choose. In very

small pastures they churn the ground to mud anyway, which

isn't good. Our grass around here isn't very good though,

and there are a lot of cattle in people's backyards, and they

are basically healthy (nice coats, lively step, alert) even though

they are mostly ignored and used as grass cutters. My last

steer was REALLY healthy, with fine strong bones etc., and he

was fed off a small pasture and bales of hay by a farmer who

didn't pay that much attention to soil quality. They are basically

rather robust and can do well in a wide range of conditions, I think.

-- Heidi Jean

July 7, 2004

>Your comment about using antibiotics during grain fattening of

>cattle, made me wonder why some beef is advertised as antibiotic and

>hormone free, but is still grain fed the last few weeks before

>slaughter. This doesn't make sense. I guess a few phone calls may be

>in order to check up on such processors of beef. Buyer beware!

>

>Fortunately my dh and I buy grass fed beef and know the rancher

>personally. It feels wonderful knowing the source of our beef is

>local and properly cared for long before it is set upon the dinner

>table to be eaten.

>Sheila

It might be how LONG they do the grain feeding. I got that info from a New York

Times article on cattle rearing (a GREAT article but it's not online anymore).

They

fed them grains for 6 months, I think. " Grain finished " cattle only get grain

for

a few weeks. I've talked to folks who SWEAR you MUST grain finish to

get decent beef, so it was kind of a leap of faith to get an old steer

that was purely grass fed.

However, some of it might have to do with the breed. That same year I got

a young Angus, really young, and that one was tough and nowhere near

as good as the old Longhorn steer. The Longhorn had less fat ... there was NO

fat under the skin at all, though there was a fair amount internally, cushioning

the organs, and some in the meat (in the rib steaks, esp.). But the Longhorn

was (is) more juicy and better meat. Both were grass fed though.

I commend you for getting to know your sources though! Some folks

have thought I was being sort of morbid for " knowing " the steer ... but

if you don't know the source, haven't seen the steer alive, how do you

know it was handled decently? The " Don't ask don't tell " policy doesn't

work for me anymore.

-- Heidi Jean

July 7, 2004

>>>How does companion planting improve the nutritional value of the

crop? Mulching is done at the expense of the nutritional value of

the crop. Composting organic matter grown on low soil fertility

creates composted organic matter with little fertilizer value and

is, at best, robbing to pay . Manure, or what comes out

one end, depends on the nutritional value of the food that went in

the other end. Food from low soil fertility is turned into manure

with low fertility value.<<<

OK - it's all hopeless - I'll go and shoot myself now and not have to worry

about it.

July 7, 2004

> OK - it's all hopeless - I'll go and shoot myself now and not have to

> worry about it.

Yeah, totally. Any solutions, Chi? All I'm hearing is criticisms. It's

easy to stand at the sidelines and tell the people doing the work that

they're doing it all wrong.

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com/

http://www.democracyfororegon.com/

July 7, 2004

> Re: Organic Food: Malnutrition without Poison

>

>> OK - it's all hopeless - I'll go and shoot myself now and not have to

>> worry about it.

>

>Yeah, totally. Any solutions, Chi? All I'm hearing is criticisms. It's

>easy to stand at the sidelines and tell the people doing the work that

>they're doing it all wrong.

>

>Lynn S.

Head's up - it's not at_all hopeless ladies! No need for self-inflicted

violence :-)

Here are some materials with solutions:

" Science in Agriculture: Advanced Methods for Sustainable Farming " by Dr.

Arden Andersen, Ph.D. D.O, and agricultural consultant to farmers, farmer

consultants and several companies worldwide. Andersen discusses the Reams

method of soil testing and building fertile soil, and the Reams and Albrecth

stuff go hand in hand. Andersen was clearly influenced by both Albrecht and

Reams. I believe this book describes in detail what Chi is talking about,

and tells you how to build truly fertile soil that will produce

pest-resistant, extremely healthy high brix plants that produce abundant

yield.

" Nourishment Homegrown " by A.F. Beddoe, DDS. This book is a how-to on the

growing secrets of Carey Reams.

You could also call Acres USA for more related materials. I got mine from

Pike AgriLab in Strong, ME. They also sell the Albrecht Papers.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

http://pikeagri.com/plsbooks.html

----------------------------

group/ /

>

July 7, 2004

Oh sorry, I meant to include links for anyone wanting the materials I

mentioned in my last post.

http://www.acresusa.com/magazines/magazine.htm

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics