Re: What to do When the Atkins Diet Fails You ... and Why it Usually Does

[Guest guest]

one of my biggest beefs with atkins is the marketing of all those

atkins friendly energy bar-type snacks. i wish mercola had included

more about how that kind of processed/denatured/dead food is bad for

anyone - most of all someone who is trying to lose weight and keep

it off.

the thing about atkins was that he could've used his knowledge to

promote weight loss as way to regain health. as far as i'm

concerned, no mainstream diet plan addresses how to lose weight

while focusing on (non PC) health and nutrition.

erica z

> I am writing a sympathetic critique/tribute of Dr. Atkins work. I

would

> like to get some comments from some of you as to the strengths and

> weaknesses of Mercola's assesment of Dr. Atkins:

>

> http://www.mercola.com/2004/jul/3/atkins_diet.htm

>

> Thanks in advance!

>

>

> War, the God That Failed

> http://tinyurl.com/2npch

>

> " They told just the same,

> That just because a tyrant has the might

> By force of arms to murder men downright

> And burn down house and home and leave all flat

> They call the man a captain, just for that.

> But since an outlaw with his little band

> Cannot bring half such mischief on the land

> Or be the cause of so much harm and grief,

> He only earns the title of a thief. "

> --Geoffrey Chaucer, The Manciple's

Tale

[Guest guest]

OK, here are my comments as requested:

Number one, I truly detest the title of this article, partcilarly the tag

line, " Why it Usually Does. " Talk about inflammatory!

Most people who " do Atkins " DO NOT REALLY DO IT. They do it wrong, in other

words. I doubt that Atkins will fail most people who actually do it, but

more to the point, Dr. Mercola really has no basis for that claim. However,

this is a minor point.

Point One, that one third of all people " require a high carbohydrate diet. "

I find this one hard to swallow, but it might depend on definitions. Since

all Atkins does is eliminate certain foods (white flours, white sugar and

its cousins high fructose corn syrup etc), and lets you arrive at your

carbohydrate level by individualized means, and there is no set carb level

for anyone to eat, then at least in theory, it seems to me that even these

people would do fine using the Atkins guidelines to determine their optimum

carb intake and avoid harmful foods. Seems simple enough to me!

Point Two, that " Emotional Factors are not Addressed, " is probably quite

valid. However, I was myself rather surprised to discover how many of the

things I thought of as " emotional eating " turned out to vanish once I got on

Atkins and got my blood sugar regulated, but I have also seen a lot of

people doing Atkins, as well as doing other plans, or doing no plan at all,

who had severe unresolved emotional issues that need to be addressed. I

myself had dealt with the emotional stuff years before, and so when I

discovered Atkins (AFTER already having discovered NT/WAPF, of course), all

the pieces fell into place easily.

Point Three, that ketosis is not a great idea... well, this objection is not

very strong, by his own admission. He basically says it's not harmful but

also not necessary, and it causes bad breath. <G> Myself, I've never checked

to see if I'm " in ketosis " or not. I'm losing weight and feel great so I

don't care.

Point Four, objections to the glycemic index. I think that his

interpretation of what Dr. Atkins said is a bit off base here, relying on

comments taken out of context. Dr. Atkins is quite clear that the glycemic

index is only one part of the picture. He discusses the glycemic LOAD of a

meal, and talks about balancing the nutritional value of foods with their

impact on blood sugar. I personally believe that for the careful Atkins

dieter, this objection is utterly without foundation, because we will have

read exactly what Dr. Atkins said and taken it in context. For instance, one

of his objections to the glycemic index involves the " low glycemic " nature

of apple juice, chocolate, and cherries, which Dr. Mercola says should not

be eaten if you want to lose weight. (I assume he is referring to sugar

sweetened chocolate.) But Dr. Atkins is extremely negative about fruit

juices at all times, and sugar is one of the few foods we are supposed to

kiss goodbye forever. The glycemic index doesn't come into this analysis at

all. Cherries is probably valid .... I have not moved beyond berries and

melons to the " other fruits " yet, so I haven't read up on them. But the way

Atkins is set up, if cherries did make you stop losing weight, you would be

expected to stop eating them, no matter what their glycemic index. It's

pretty basic.

So, my belief is that this is a straw man argument, and Dr. Atkins and Dr.

Mercola are probably quite close on this issue.

Dr. Mercola feels that counting carbs is not necessary. I don't think it's

" necessary, " but I think it's a very helpful tool and gives people a

framework to determine their optimal diet. I'm sure it's not the only such

tool, but it's a bit specious to critique a " controlled carb eating program "

for teaching its followers to count carbs. How else can we control them,

LOL?

Next is the Sucralose objection which I agree with completely.

Next, he feels nuts should be minimized unless fish oils are being consumed.

I agree that we need to address fatty acid imbalances in our diet, whether

nuts are eaten or not.

Then he says that the Atkins program doesn't require enough exercise,

recommending " only " thirty minutes of cardio a day. Well, I happen to

believe that 30 minutes of cardio a day is about 25 minutes more than you

need, but I'm a weight lifting kind of a gal. <G> Dr. Atkins actually

suggests that people find an activity they really like and do that for

pleasure and exercise - in his case, this was tennis. I think this is very

good advice. I think it's very admirable that Dr. Atkins is adamant that

" exercise is non-negotiable " in his plan, but I don't use him as my exercise

guru. But I surely am not going to say Dr. Mercola is my exercise guru

either, as he solemnly informs me I can't lose weight unless I do 60 minutes

of exercise a day, due to some sort of fantasy about mitochondria in my

muscles. I've lost well over a hundred pounds without doing anything even

CLOSE to an hour of exercise a day..... or did I dream that?

Next, he objects to a lack of attention to food quality in the Atkins plan.

I agree with this completely. For me, Atkins without NT/WAPF would be pretty

bankrupt.

Overall, I don't think that the elements he objects to are essential parts

of Atkins... for instance, the Atkins plan does not actually REQUIRE the

consumption of Splenda or factory farmed meats, it simply doesn't prohibit

them. I also feel that he has fallen into the trap of missing how

individualized the carb levels eaten on Atkins are, which is a very common

problem when discussion this way of eating.

Christie

[Guest guest]

I am definitely a " failed " Atkins person. I can't really comment on

Mercola's assessment because I am not sure why it did not work for me.

During the time that I was doing it, my strength improved as did my blood

sugar problems. However, I had absolutely no energy and I was terribly

depressed and a real space cadet. Nor did I lose any weight even after

almost a month on induction. Nothing improved by getting off induction and

going to the next phase. So I can't really say why. I also know from

experience that I am not a high carb person. I might try Atkins again

sometime. I would really like it to work. I loved having the extra strength

and stable blood sugar. It might have been specific foods causing the

problems but I don't really know.

Irene

At 09:58 AM 7/6/04, you wrote:

>I am writing a sympathetic critique/tribute of Dr. Atkins work. I would

>like to get some comments from some of you as to the strengths and

>weaknesses of Mercola's assesment of Dr. Atkins:

>

>http://www.mercola.com/2004/jul/3/atkins_diet.htm

>

>Thanks in advance!

>

>

>War, the God That Failed

>http://tinyurl.com/2npch

>

> " They told just the same,

>That just because a tyrant has the might

>By force of arms to murder men downright

>And burn down house and home and leave all flat

>They call the man a captain, just for that.

>But since an outlaw with his little band

>Cannot bring half such mischief on the land

>Or be the cause of so much harm and grief,

>He only earns the title of a thief. "

> --Geoffrey Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In addition to the entirety of what Christie said, I have to point

out the high soy content of most of the Atkins food products. I did

Atkins for about 9 months, about 5 of it on the induction phase--but

using WAPF foods. The first month I lost something like 15 lbs

(needed to lose about 55 altogether). Then I discovered Atkins bars

and plateaued for the next few months. I was only eating one a day,

or sometime one breakfast bar and one regular bar, but the soy

content and estrogen-like effects were enough to stop the weight loss

to a crawl. During those months I might have lost another 5 lbs.

Then I realized the problem, tossed the last few bars, and lost

another 30 lbs in about 3 more months.

And I kept it off, until mid-February, when I became pregnant. I'm

not completely keeping to it now due to alot of trips away from home,

but mean to go back to at least the second stage so I can straighten

out my metabolism and have more energy. I've gained about 10 lbs.,

which my midwife is thrilled with (but I'm not--previous two

pregnancies I gained 14 lbs. with each, and I'm only half done!).

So my two biggest disagreements with it are the lack of WAPF

recommendations, and the use of soy in products that are supposed to

help people lose weight.

Smiles,

Tracey

[Guest guest]

> I am writing a sympathetic critique/tribute of Dr. Atkins work. I

would

> like to get some comments from some of you as to the strengths and

> weaknesses of Mercola's assesment of Dr. Atkins:

>

> http://www.mercola.com/2004/jul/3/atkins_diet.htm

, my comments are slotted in below:

" First let me say that I have enormous respect for Dr. Atkins'

pioneering work with nutrition. "

>>>But don't forget, Mercola is in competition with Atkins so you

have to take his biased viewpoint into account in all of this.

" One-Third of the Population Require a High-Carb Diet

<snip>

This is because these people actually require a high-carb diet, and

by following the Atkins Diet they are not giving their body the ideal

fuel mixture that they were genetically designed to have. To achieve

long-term weight loss and disease prevention, they would need a low-

protein and low-fat diet, which is quite opposite of the Atkins'

approach. "

>>>I query whether or not any human is genetically programmed to be

high carb? We evolved from monkeys as hunters, and we lived

nomadically and with no technology before high carb foods could be

farmed/harvested in high enough quantities for us to evolve to

tolerate them.

" For these people, the Atkins Diet also poses a serious possibility

that the extra protein they are eating could cause kidney impairment

if there was some underlying problem prior to starting the diet. "

>>>To translate: Dr Atkins doesn't cause kidney complaints. Whatever

you were doing/eating before going on Atkins caused the problem. Dr

A actually warns against anyone with a kidney complaint doing his

diet. Mercola is picking and choosing what information he wants to

pass on to us.

" Emotional Factors are Not Addressed

No matter what type of foods you eat, or what combination you eat

them in, you will not have successful long-tem weight loss and health

if the emotional factors are not addressed. Anyone who's ever tried

to lose weight knows that this is the area in which support is most

needed--you've mastered the details, knowing what foods are " right "

or " wrong, " yet are struggling nonetheless. This is the power that

emotions have over our rational minds. "

>>>Agreed, but the wonderful thing about low carbing is that it's

easy and very possible to do successfully without addressing the

emotional problems. A book which addresses the emotional side would

be a book on psychology, not nutrition. Good quality low carb food

balances the emotions, lowers stress levels, balances hormones, which

all help you to overcome the emotional side.

" Ketosis is what occurs in your body if you do not have enough

carbohydrates to burn as fuel. Instead, your body uses fat as a fuel

and one of the breakdown products is ketones. While it is not

necessarily dangerous to have ketosis, it is my belief, and that of

many other physicians, that this is not necessarily a healthy

condition to intentionally induce. "

>>>Ketones are a by-product of fat burning, so how can a person

possibly lose fat without producing ketones? Isn't this the point of

every diet? Notice also that it's a belief, not a researched fact.

Ketogenic diets have been in use by the medical profession for a long

long time to treat epilepsy and possibly other conditions too.

" Ketones are also the reason why patients on this diet often develop

a strange breath odor. "

>>>Drinking 2L water per day eliminates that problem.

" The Glycemic Index--Not a Good Way to Choose Your Food "

>>>Actually, I believe it was Dr Atkins who pointed out regularly

that you should not consider the GI of a food, but of your meal,

because of the impact of fat and protein on the digestive speed of

carbs. What's more, he produced his own index of the nutritional

value of a food vs it's glycaemic impact. So garlic for example is

high, because it is packed with good stuff, whereas watermelon is low

because it's mostly water. He encouraged dieters to choose carbs

that had a high nutritional content.

" Counting Carb Calories is Unnecessary

The Atkins Diet encourages the use of a " carbohydrate gram counter "

to keep track of carb calories.

When you eat the diet that I have detailed in my Total Health

Program, a diet that is ideal for your metabolic type, you eat until

you are full and satisfied. When you eat the ideal foods for you,

counting carbs or anything else becomes unnecessary because your body

will naturally tell you when it's time to stop eating, and when it's

time to start. "

>>>Mercola has clearly not read Dr Atkins' book very well. Dr A

states to eat what you need until you are full, not to over-eat.

Therefore calorie counting is not necessary. If you are eating low

carb, you will become full before you over-eat.

" Sucralose (Splenda) is Recommended Despite Health Risks "

>>>I agree with Mercola on this one. So far I have seen nothing that

would encourage me to swap aspartame for sucralose.

" Nuts are Not Ideal

nuts are high in omega-6 fats so if you are not supplementing your

diet with fish oils it is likely your omega 6:3 ratio is about 15:1

rather than the ideal 1:1. "

>>>Depends which book you read.... I have read 2 books which state a

ratio of 2:1 or 3:1 is ideal. Certainly not 1:1. And where does his

15:1 ratio come from? If Atkinsers are eating a lot of saturated fat

from healthy sources, then their ratio is unlikely to be this high.

" Not Enough Exercise for Ideal Weight Loss

Dr. Atkins recommends only 30 daily minutes of cardiovascular

exercise, but for most overweight people twice that amount is

needed. "

>>>A disagreement between Drs - who's right? I have read reports of

research that shows that obese people who exercise are more likely to

gain fat than to lose fat.

" Food Quality--Largely Overlooked and Risky for Health "

>>>Agreed, Dr A does not cover this - but no diet book is perfect (eg

I believe NT is too high in sugar and carbs in general). His earlier

editions advocated healthy whole foods, then his later books allowed

his own processed LC foods even on induction, which was very

disappointing. However, most Atkinsers with a weight problem switch

from unhealthy highly processed refined carbs to vegetables, salads,

cream, cheese, nuts, meat, eggs and fat when they start the diet.

This is a BIG improvement on what they used to eat. Worth noting

that in the UK we low carbers eat much more naturally than low

carbers in the US because of the lack of availability of the

processed low carb foods. however, I can see that changing in the

future.

Jo

[Guest guest]

> OK, here are my comments as requested:

>

> Number one, I truly detest the title of this article, partcilarly

the tag

> line, " Why it Usually Does. " Talk about inflammatory!

>

Christie

I totally agree with you there, but that is the way Mercola speaks in

order to sound like an authority on his topics.

Unfortunately, Atkins has failed for several people I know. My

husband has gained 140lbs. He is massively overweight. I came

across some photos yesterday of him when he was 140lbs lighter, and

even though he was still very large, it brought tears to my eyes to

think of him struggling with his weight every day and just gaining

continuously.

I just WISH I could help him, but he seems destined to spend his

lifetime morbidly obese, and that will shorten his life, which also

makes me cry :-(

I know of another woman who gained considerably on Atkins. And yet

another who has failed to lose even a pound while on induction.

Jo

[Guest guest]

Jo,

I don't mean to be slight but 60% of the US population is overweight and they

have NOT been eating Atkins. If your husband has followed Atkins exactly as he

should, then there is something else wrong going on for him. One thing I have

seen with people on the diet is a tendency to cheat. All those I know who did

not lose weight did this. One of my co-workers thought they could do it for six

days out of the week and on the seventh day, take a break and splurge. Of any

diet, Atkins is the worst to do that on. He states this in his writings and

explains his is a metabolic - chemical diet. It is no where likened to counting

calories. You have to follow exactly what he says. It is based on high fat

consumption which you can only eat in exchange for drastically cutting your

carbohydrates. To eat both is the worse thing you can possibly do, not only for

gaining weight but triglyceride and cholesteral levels, etc. My son has lost 50

pounds on it - a girl friend tempted him one evening to ice cream. He added 5

#'s back the next morning on the scale. I've seen others get the idea that they

can eat all the protein and fat foods they want. Atkins again explains this is

not the case, and in fact, explains that one of the reasons is that meat

actually contains carbohydrates.

He also addresses in his book some medical problems that can cause the diet not

to work. One problem he addresses is hypothyroidism, I think he hits hormonal

problems, there are more but not coming to my memory right now. There are

medications that affect metabolism such as the SSRI antidepressants - he states

people most likely will not lose weight while on them and will not be able to

get into ketolysis. And there are other meds. On the low carb boards, they talk

about something I think they call a " fat fast " that is for people who cannot get

their metabolism to speed up, get into ketolysis and lose weight. It is a very

specific diet you eat for a couple of days.

Go on the low carb boards but first take a good look at the membership #s and

the # of groups there are. You will find have a multitude of obese people who

have lost significant pounds and really know the ropes of what Atkins is about

and not about.

Re: What to do When the Atkins Diet Fails You ... and Why it

Usually Does

> OK, here are my comments as requested:

>

> Number one, I truly detest the title of this article, partcilarly

the tag

> line, " Why it Usually Does. " Talk about inflammatory!

>

Christie

I totally agree with you there, but that is the way Mercola speaks in

order to sound like an authority on his topics.

Unfortunately, Atkins has failed for several people I know. My

husband has gained 140lbs. He is massively overweight. I came

across some photos yesterday of him when he was 140lbs lighter, and

even though he was still very large, it brought tears to my eyes to

think of him struggling with his weight every day and just gaining

continuously.

I just WISH I could help him, but he seems destined to spend his

lifetime morbidly obese, and that will shorten his life, which also

makes me cry :-(

I know of another woman who gained considerably on Atkins. And yet

another who has failed to lose even a pound while on induction.

Jo

[Guest guest]

I didn't cheat and I did not lose weight.

Irene

At 10:57 AM 7/7/04, you wrote:

>I don't mean to be slight but 60% of the US population is overweight and

>they have NOT been eating Atkins. If your husband has followed Atkins

>exactly as he should, then there is something else wrong going on for

>him. One thing I have seen with people on the diet is a tendency to

>cheat. All those I know who did not lose weight did this.

[Guest guest]

Hi

Thanks for your suggestions, but we have tried them all...

He lost 140lbs in 18 months on Atkins - he ate high protein, very low

carbs, and the rest was fat. I came along and said he needed veg,

and forced spinach, cabbage and the like on him. I also decided he

should be eating less protein and more fat. He stalled, then he

gained back everything over 2 years. He does not cheat. He has been

low carb for 4 years. He is in ketosis, and is not on any meds. His

thyroid has been tested, it's normal. He eats less than he used to

(I don't think it's a calorie thing). He has done the fat fast

numerous times - he loses 5lbs, then gains back again when he goes

back to induction.

We have approached the Atkins Center and asked for help - they sent

an email back with a long list. He's done what he can and still he

gains weight. I have been a low carber for 4.5 years and moderate 2

LC lists, and over the years have been members of many other lists

(incl 4 others at this moment). we have tried every single

suggestion. Nothing works. If you have anything new to offer, I

would love to hear your suggestions. However, no-one ever has

anything new to offer.

Jo

> He also addresses in his book some medical problems that can cause

the diet not to work. One problem he addresses is hypothyroidism, I

think he hits hormonal problems, there are more but not coming to my

memory right now. There are medications that affect metabolism such

as the SSRI antidepressants - he states people most likely will not

lose weight while on them and will not be able to get into ketolysis.

And there are other meds. On the low carb boards, they talk about

something I think they call a " fat fast " that is for people who

cannot get their metabolism to speed up, get into ketolysis and lose

weight. It is a very specific diet you eat for a couple of days.

>

> Go on the low carb boards but first take a good look at the

membership #s and the # of groups there are. You will find have a

multitude of obese people who have lost significant pounds and really

know the ropes of what Atkins is about and not about.

>

[Guest guest]

Irene,

Please reread what I wrote, or read Atkins. Cheating is one reason for not

losing weight but it is not the only reason.

Re: What to do When the Atkins Diet Fails You ... and Why it

Usually Does

I didn't cheat and I did not lose weight.

Irene

At 10:57 AM 7/7/04, you wrote:

>I don't mean to be slight but 60% of the US population is overweight and

>they have NOT been eating Atkins. If your husband has followed Atkins

>exactly as he should, then there is something else wrong going on for

>him. One thing I have seen with people on the diet is a tendency to

>cheat. All those I know who did not lose weight did this.

[Guest guest]

>>>>Ketones are a by-product of fat burning, so how can a person

>possibly lose fat without producing ketones? Isn't this the point of

>every diet? Notice also that it's a belief, not a researched fact.

>Ketogenic diets have been in use by the medical profession for a long

>long time to treat epilepsy and possibly other conditions too.

Ketones are normally produced when there isn't enough glucose

to burn with the fat. The " usual " metabolic cycle includes a little

bit of glucose with some fat, the two burn together to burn

the fat completely. If there is no glucose available, the cells can

burn JUST fat, but it burns incompletely, leaving some ketones.

The body can burn ketones too (it's the only other fuel besides

glucose that the brain can use).

However, carnivores (like tigers) that rarely if ever eat carb foods,

create glucose from protein, and they don't produce ketones on

a low-carb diet. Apparantly people can adapt too ... the Inuit eat

a really low-carb diet but don't go into ketosis. So in theory, if

a person sticks to a low-carb diet for a long time, they might

just adapt and become a carnivore!

Also, you burn fat all the time, even if you aren't losing weight.

The thing is, you are laying down fat and burning fat all day long

(or should be, if your insulin levels etc. are working right). If you

burn more fat than you store for that day, then there is a net

loss of fat, which for most of us is desirable! But if you are alive,

then your cells are burning fat and glucose ... that's what they live

off of ... we just kind of wish they would burn MORE fat ... !

-- Heidi Jean