Re: heidi: gluten free sourdough claims

[Guest guest]

> well. things are still in craze-mode as we prepare for the open

house, but

> i took a break to finally read the wise traditions that " just " came

out and

> i found there's an article about pel'menji!! i? am a pel'menji

FIEND. a

> complete and unabashed fanatic. i used to have huge parties

completely

> dedicated to pel'menji. when i lived in russia, i used to contrive

to get

> myself invited to people's grandmothers' houses so that i could

learn new

> pel'menji recipes...(i will note, however, that it's a rare russian

> housewife that still ferments the dough, though i'd expect that the

> villagers are more likely to do so. i only lived in cities...)

>

> anyway.

>

> here's a quote, and the crux of my question: " Not only are anti-

nutrients

> such as phytic acid neutralized by the acidic long soaking period,

but

> recent research has shown that the lacto-bacilli present in

sourdough

> cultures effectively neutralize the toxic components of the wheat

gluten

> molecule responsible for the allergic reaction in celiac-sprue

sufferers.

> Mere soaking with the addition of acetic acid showed no effect on

the

> gluten molecule. ... "

>

> she references the following paper: DiCagno, et al: proteolysis by

> sourdough lactic acid bacteria: effects on wheat flour protein

fractions

> and gliadin peptides involved in human cereal intolerance. applied

and

> environmental microbiology, feb 2002 p623-633 vol 68, #2.

>

> so.

>

> do we trust it?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX One point Katja: Those applied environmental

microbiologists are pretty sharp! I wonder who funded the research

tho. Dennis Kemnitz

i had just assumed i couldn't have pel'menji anymore, or

> that i'd have to devise some sort of rice flour method, or...

>

> what are your thoughts, glutenatrix? (and anyone else!)

>

> -katja

[Guest guest]

At 04:42 PM 7/13/2004, you wrote:

>XXXXXXXXXXXXXX One point Katja: Those applied environmental

>microbiologists are pretty sharp! I wonder who funded the research

>tho. Dennis Kemnitz

i know, i know - that's why i want to believe them. but the funding

question is why i don't want to believe them

-katja

[Guest guest]

>do we trust it? i had just assumed i couldn't have pel'menji anymore, or

>that i'd have to devise some sort of rice flour method, or...

>

>what are your thoughts, glutenatrix? (and anyone else!)

>

>-katja

There have been some good studies that show (in vitro) that properly

fermented wheat really does have the gluten " defanged " so to speak ...

but no long term studies. The short-term studies on deglutenized

wheat starch is that it causes no problems, but long term, the people

who use it have more problems than those who don't. I tend to think

it might work, mainly because kefirized milk seems to work for me

(it changes the shape of the casein enough so my system doesn't

mind it). OTOH I'm always leery of attempts to " make wheat ok " ...

it's a little like dealcholizing wine (what's the point? If you don't want

alcohol, don't drink wine!). I'd rather raise my kids without the cultural

addiction to wheat, using the plethora of other grains ... our culture is

SO mono-grain oriented. Also, once you change the gluten so it isn't

reactive, it also seems to lose it's stretchability which is the one thing

that makes wheat good for baking.

Soooo ... I'd guess it depends on how often you have it, and how

reactive you are. Some people really can detect small amounts, and if

they don't react to it, it's probably safe enough.

If it was me, I'd try making it with sorghum flour though, if only because

I don't want wheat flour in the house at all (it flies everywhere!). I haven't

tried pel'menji, but I did a kefir/sourdough with sorghum and it came

out rather nice (it didn't rise well, THAT I'm not good at, but it tasted

good!).

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Quoting the article:

http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/sourdough_egg_noodles.html

This discovery is truly exciting for those who are gluten-intolerant, as it may

be the door to food that is traditionally prepared and safe to eat, with the

welcome bonus of being both tasty and extra-nutritious. The lacto-bacteria in a

sourdough culture can be boosted by the addition of whey (in place of water) for

baking bread, and as the liquid component of noodle dough, as we see in this

traditional recipe for pel’meni.

---

THAT part I would disagree with. People who are verifiably gluten intolerant

increase their risk of many diseases if they ingest gluten ... or breath

it in (which amounts to ingesting it), even in small amounts, as it incites

the immune system to create auto-immune antibodies. It could be that

if they had eating nothing but sourdough from birth they wouldn't

be so reactive ... but there is no evidence for the idea that " low gluten "

food is ok, and plenty of evidence that some " low gluten " foods really

do increase the rates of cancer etc. for people who are gluten-reactive.

For me following those directions, having wheat flour on my hands,

would be enough to make me ill for a couple of days. I'd rather see

a good way to make elastic noodles using something less problematic.

Working with wheat (or being in the bread isle) makes me feel like

I " m working with something like toxic waste, or arsenic-laced rat poison.

But since gluten is probably rather hard on the intestines for anyone,

those who are not gluten reactive will probably notice what she did,

that it is " lighter on the stomach " .

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

At 08:11 PM 7/13/2004, you wrote:

>If it was me, I'd try making it with sorghum flour though, if only because

>I don't want wheat flour in the house at all (it flies everywhere!). I haven't

>tried pel'menji, but I did a kefir/sourdough with sorghum and it came

>out rather nice (it didn't rise well, THAT I'm not good at, but it tasted

>good!).

thanks, heidi. see, i agree about not having wheat in the house at all.

amber's super sensitive and i would never usually risk something like

this...except, pel'menji. it's a cultural thing. ya know?

however, i hadn't thought to try sorghum...pel'menji dough doesn't need to

rise - it's just noodle dough, ya know?

perhaps i'll try it that way...not till winter though! who has time to sit

around for hours stuffing hundreds of pel'menjis in summer?

-katja

[Guest guest]

>thanks, heidi. see, i agree about not having wheat in the house at all.

>amber's super sensitive and i would never usually risk something like

>this...except, pel'menji. it's a cultural thing. ya know?

>however, i hadn't thought to try sorghum...pel'menji dough doesn't need to

>rise - it's just noodle dough, ya know?

>

>perhaps i'll try it that way...not till winter though! who has time to sit

>around for hours stuffing hundreds of pel'menjis in summer?

>

>-katja

Well, if you succeed please do post the results! I'm sure that noodles can

be made from non-wheat grains (the low-protein wheat is usually what

is used for noodles, I think, and the Asians made noodles from buckwheat

and rice way before wheat noodles came into vogue) but I've never

made noodles really, wheat or otherwise.

-- Heidi Jean