Re: Help with crumbly cookies?

[Guest guest]

> Kids just won't eat crumbs . . . nor guests for that matter.

Your kids won't eat guests? That's a relief!

Using butter instead of margarine should not affect your recipe at all.

Could you print out the whole recipe, as it was when it " worked " and as

it is now that you've done some substituting?

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.wisforwomen.com

[Guest guest]

more egg? I have never had that problem but i use coconut oil for baking.

you might try that too. Just use a little less.

Elaine

> I have a problem with cookies that crumble ever since I started

> substituting with healthier ingredients, like no margarine. When I

> first take them out off of the cookie sheet, the cookies are really

> flat, then start crumbling. Does any one have any suggestions on how

> to maintain a whole cookie in shape?

[Guest guest]

" Elaine " <itchyink@s...> wrote:

> more egg? I have never had that problem but i use coconut oil for

baking.

> you might try that too. Just use a little less.

I shall try that, Elaine. Thanks!

Gayle

[Guest guest]

Lynn Siprelle <lynn@s...> wrote:

> > Kids just won't eat crumbs . . . nor guests for that matter.

>

> Your kids won't eat guests? That's a relief!

LOL

> Using butter instead of margarine should not affect your recipe at

all.

Yes, it does Laurie from my own experience when I only substituted

butter! I have heard lots of " home " bakers say that too. When you use

butter, you no longer have a nicely formed cookie. It just goes flat.

But I don't think it is the butter alternative that is making the

cookie crumbly.

> Could you print out the whole recipe, as it was when it " worked "

and as

> it is now that you've done some substituting?

For example:

1.5 cups of all purpose flour (use freshly ground wheat)

1 tsp. soda mixed with 1 tsp. hot water in a separate bowl

1 tsp. salt

1 cup shortening (use butter instead of margarine)

3/4 cup white sugar (use turbinado sugar)

3/4 cup brown sugar (use turbinado sugar)

2 eggs

1 cup walnuts or pecans chopped

8 oz. chocolate chips

2 cups rolled oats

1 tsp vanilla

__________

Before substitution, it worked good before with the cookies widening

out some but rising and maintaining the cookie shape. Basically, it is

missing " glue " with the substitution. I could double the eggs as

Elaine suggested. Then I was thinking of molasses as an alternative

for some of the sugar.

Gayle

[Guest guest]

I no longer use butter with baking cookies (which i haven't done in ages)

because they would get flat and crispy and greasy. Plus i'm just paying too

damn much money for butter to actually bake with it. The coconut oil seemed

to hold them together better. But again -- use less than the recipe calls

for, maybe a 1/4 less. Butter has water that cooks out, reducing the volume,

whereas coconut oil doesn't. Coconut oil can't be beat for baking IMO. When

i've made brownies i do use the full amount of coconut oil for an extra rich

brownie with a hint of coconut flavor.

Elaine

> From: " gayle12345678 " <gayle123456789@...>

> Reply-

> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:25:04 -0000

>

> Subject: Re: Help with crumbly cookies?

>

> Lynn Siprelle <lynn@s...> wrote:

>>> Kids just won't eat crumbs . . . nor guests for that matter.

>>

>> Your kids won't eat guests? That's a relief!

>

> LOL

>

>

>> Using butter instead of margarine should not affect your recipe at

> all.

>

> Yes, it does Laurie from my own experience when I only substituted

> butter! I have heard lots of " home " bakers say that too. When you use

> butter, you no longer have a nicely formed cookie. It just goes flat.

> But I don't think it is the butter alternative that is making the

> cookie crumbly.

>

>> Could you print out the whole recipe, as it was when it " worked "

> and as

>> it is now that you've done some substituting?

>

> For example:

> 1.5 cups of all purpose flour (use freshly ground wheat)

> 1 tsp. soda mixed with 1 tsp. hot water in a separate bowl

> 1 tsp. salt

> 1 cup shortening (use butter instead of margarine)

> 3/4 cup white sugar (use turbinado sugar)

> 3/4 cup brown sugar (use turbinado sugar)

> 2 eggs

> 1 cup walnuts or pecans chopped

> 8 oz. chocolate chips

> 2 cups rolled oats

> 1 tsp vanilla

> __________

>

> Before substitution, it worked good before with the cookies widening

> out some but rising and maintaining the cookie shape. Basically, it is

> missing " glue " with the substitution. I could double the eggs as

> Elaine suggested. Then I was thinking of molasses as an alternative

> for some of the sugar.

>

> Gayle

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

just occurred to me your freshly ground wheat isn't going to be as sticky as

white flour, which could also contribute to crumbling.

Elaine

[Guest guest]

Are you sure you put all the sugar in the last batch? It's easy enough to get

distracted and not put it all in :-)

Cheers,

Tas'.

Re: Help with crumbly cookies?

Lynn Siprelle <lynn@s...> wrote:

> > Kids just won't eat crumbs . . . nor guests for that matter.

>

> Your kids won't eat guests? That's a relief!

LOL

> Using butter instead of margarine should not affect your recipe at

all.

Yes, it does Laurie from my own experience when I only substituted

butter! I have heard lots of " home " bakers say that too. When you use

butter, you no longer have a nicely formed cookie. It just goes flat.

But I don't think it is the butter alternative that is making the

cookie crumbly.

> Could you print out the whole recipe, as it was when it " worked "

and as

> it is now that you've done some substituting?

For example:

1.5 cups of all purpose flour (use freshly ground wheat)

1 tsp. soda mixed with 1 tsp. hot water in a separate bowl

1 tsp. salt

1 cup shortening (use butter instead of margarine)

3/4 cup white sugar (use turbinado sugar)

3/4 cup brown sugar (use turbinado sugar)

2 eggs

1 cup walnuts or pecans chopped

8 oz. chocolate chips

2 cups rolled oats

1 tsp vanilla

__________

Before substitution, it worked good before with the cookies widening

out some but rising and maintaining the cookie shape. Basically, it is

missing " glue " with the substitution. I could double the eggs as

Elaine suggested. Then I was thinking of molasses as an alternative

for some of the sugar.

Gayle

[Guest guest]

@@@@@@@

> Kids just won't eat crumbs . . . nor guests for that matter.

>

> Gayle

@@@@@@@

You could give them a spoon and call them something other

than " cookies " ...

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

>>>You could give them a spoon and call them something other than

" cookies " ...<<<

Yeah, you can use them sprinkled on icecream or as muesli (granola).

Cheers,

Tas'.

[Guest guest]

" Elaine " <itchyink@s...> wrote:

> I no longer use butter with baking cookies (which i haven't done in

ages)

> because they would get flat and crispy and greasy. Plus i'm just

paying too

> damn much money for butter to actually bake with it.

I thought I was paying too damn much money for coconut oil. Butter is

about $4.30 Canadian for 2 cups (1 block) whereas 4 cups of coconut

oil costs me $14.00 Canadian. What is your price comparison between

the two products?

> The coconut oil seemed

> to hold them together better. But again -- use less than the recipe

calls

> for, maybe a 1/4 less.

Even using less coconut oil won't make it less expensive than butter.

I wonder about olive oil. . . .

> Butter has water that cooks out, reducing the volume,

> whereas coconut oil doesn't. Coconut oil can't be beat for baking

IMO.

I didn't realize it would reduce in volume.

> When

> i've made brownies i do use the full amount of coconut oil for an

extra rich

> brownie with a hint of coconut flavor.

That would be tasty.

> just occurred to me your freshly ground wheat isn't going to be as

sticky as

> white flour, which could also contribute to crumbling.

Yes, it is not as sticky. I couldn't use it as an ingredient to make

paper mache! With the flour not as sticky, I was hoping to add

something to the cookie dough that would help keep it together without

reverting back to white flour!

Gayle

[Guest guest]

" " <sand8013@b...> wrote:

> Are you sure you put all the sugar in the last batch? It's easy

enough to get distracted and not put it all in :-)

Yes, I did put it all in. That recipe calls for a lot of sugar which

always takes me aback. The batter and the cookies taste as before . .

.. so it is not lacking there!

Gayle

[Guest guest]

>I no longer use butter with baking cookies (which i haven't done in ages)

>because they would get flat and crispy and greasy. Plus i'm just paying too

>damn much money for butter to actually bake with it. The coconut oil seemed

>to hold them together better. But again -- use less than the recipe calls

>for, maybe a 1/4 less. Butter has water that cooks out, reducing the volume,

>whereas coconut oil doesn't. Coconut oil can't be beat for baking IMO. When

>i've made brownies i do use the full amount of coconut oil for an extra rich

>brownie with a hint of coconut flavor.

>Elaine

Butter has some water in it, so it does change the recipe. I've seen

some recipes where they give the equivalents. I've been using coconut

oil myself ... it was considered one of the best baking shortenings

way back when (mine is deodorized though, the family doesn't like

the coconut flavor ... Tropical Traditions Expeller Pressed).

Freshly ground wheat sometimes is less gluten-y than the store

bought wheat, which gives you the same problems as us gluten-free

bakers! (namely crumbly cookies). I add Xanthan gum, and use kefiili

(which has inbuilt polysaccharides something like xanthan gum). You

can also add gelatin, or extra egg white. Or get a " harder " wheat when

you buy it.

Of course I ALSO have to add that the cookies would be a whole

lot healthier if you use some other grain than wheat ... who wants

all that gliadin sticking to your villi? (Even if you are gluten tolerant,

it isn't really something you want to have in your gut, IMO).

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry I was so ignorant on butter substituting, but honestly, I've

never experienced what you're reporting! But then I was substituting

butter for margarine, not shortening, and now that I think on it

whenever I've seen them call for shortening the substitution guides say

to cut back on the liquid if you use butter. You can now get palm oil

shortening (usually listed as " non-hydrogenated shortening! " since palm

oil still has a bad name), so maybe that'd be a good substitution, or

lard if you can get it.

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.wisforwomen.com

[Guest guest]

Gayle, i pay $10 a pound for raw butter and it seems to be the only kind

around. Coconut oil is expensive too. The palm oil Lynn mentioned works well

for baking.

Elaine

[Guest guest]

>>>>You could give them a spoon and call them something other than

" cookies " ...<<<

>

>Yeah, you can use them sprinkled on icecream or as muesli (granola).

>

>Cheers,

>Tas'.

Cookie crumbs are a main ingredient in " rum balls " too ... I save all the old

gingerbread men (no one ever EATS all of them, they just love making them)

to make rum balls. They make good " grahm cracker " type pie crusts too.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> Does any one have any suggestions on how to maintain a whole cookie in

shape?

I haven't been baking cookies much since I switched to using coconut oil,

mostly biscuits / scones / muffins. These are " more forgiving " of my flour,

kefir and sweetener experimentation. My kids are quite undemanding about

the " form factor " of any homemade baked treat... :-)

I've been using a fair amount of dried, shredded coconut in my " recipes " --

as much as 1 cup per 2 cups of flour. I was rehydrating it before adding

it, but now I'm just adding it in dry and letting it help " correct " some of

the moisture issues I'm encountering with non-wheat flours, etc. It offers a

bit of " structure " to hold muffins, etc, together, plus it brings some extra

nutrition to the treat. I've also started adding an extra egg or two, to

help hold things together better.

re: using butter. I think Alton Brown, the host of " Good Eats " on Food TV

would suggest that you need to chill your cookie batter (30 minutes?) before

slicing and baking, to get the best effect from the fat melting when the

cookies go into the hot oven. That's waaay more fuss than I'm up for, but I

offer it in case you want to try it.

re: the cost of coconut oil. The cost typically goes down if you buy in

bulk. The expense of a 5-gallon supply might seem a bit much at first

glance, but the expense averages out well and if it means you " eat healthy

at home " more often than you would without a ready and abundant supply of it

around, it's worth it. Plus, it keeps " forever " .

[Guest guest]

Lynn Siprelle <lynn@s...> wrote:

> now that I think on it

> whenever I've seen them call for shortening the substitution guides

say

> to cut back on the liquid if you use butter.

Oh dear! I was ignorant of that fact Lynn! Thanks.

> You can now get palm oil

> shortening (usually listed as " non-hydrogenated shortening! " since

palm

> oil still has a bad name), so maybe that'd be a good substitution,

or

> lard if you can get it.

That's an idea!

Gayle

[Guest guest]

Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@t...> wrote:

> Freshly ground wheat sometimes is less gluten-y than the store

> bought wheat, which gives you the same problems as us gluten-free

> bakers! (namely crumbly cookies). I add Xanthan gum, and use kefiili

> (which has inbuilt polysaccharides something like xanthan gum).

Hmmm, the Xanthan gum will be hard to find. I haven't got to the

kefiili stage yet. I am well immersed in the kefir stage. So maybe

this cookie problem will be the impetus to make me learn about

kefiili.

> You

> can also add gelatin, or extra egg white.

(gasp) That's what I could do with all those extra egg whites from

making smoothies!!! Thanks Heidi Jean!!

>Or get a " harder " wheat when

> you buy it.

This organic wheat is what we grow so I don't buy. It is hard red

spring wheat so it is the hardest I can get or even buy for that

matter. Now, how what kind of cookie recipe could I make where I

soaked the ground wheat in kefir overnight?

> Of course I ALSO have to add that the cookies would be a whole

> lot healthier if you use some other grain than wheat ... who wants

> all that gliadin sticking to your villi? (Even if you are gluten

tolerant,

> it isn't really something you want to have in your gut, IMO).

I haven't had any health problems using wheat. I'm pretty healthy

except for the occassional itchy hive!!

Gayle

[Guest guest]

> >>>>You could give them a spoon and call them something other than

" cookies " ...<<<

> >

> >Yeah, you can use them sprinkled on icecream or as muesli

(granola).

> >

> >Cheers,

> >Tas'.

>

> Cookie crumbs are a main ingredient in " rum balls " too ... I save

all the old

> gingerbread men (no one ever EATS all of them, they just love making

them)

> to make rum balls. They make good " grahm cracker " type pie crusts

too.

Thanks , and Heid for these alternatives on what

to do with the cookie crumbs. I have been desperate and fed them to

the chickens. But your ideas are much better!

Gayle

[Guest guest]

" CF Beaver " <fletcher@w...> wrote:

> My kids are quite undemanding about

> the " form factor " of any homemade baked treat... :-)

Sounds like you have great kids !

> I've been using a fair amount of dried, shredded coconut in my

" recipes " --

> as much as 1 cup per 2 cups of flour. I was rehydrating it before

adding

> it, but now I'm just adding it in dry and letting it help " correct "

some of

> the moisture issues I'm encountering with non-wheat flours, etc. It

offers a

> bit of " structure " to hold muffins, etc, together, plus it brings

some extra

> nutrition to the treat.

Now that I think about it . . . when I do use coconut in other

recipes, I do have less form problems.

> I've also started adding an extra egg or two, to

> help hold things together better.

Yes, second vote on that idea!

> re: using butter. I think Alton Brown, the host of " Good Eats " on

Food TV

> would suggest that you need to chill your cookie batter (30

minutes?) before

> slicing and baking, to get the best effect from the fat melting

when the

> cookies go into the hot oven. That's waaay more fuss than I'm up

for, but I

> offer it in case you want to try it.

Hmmm, I don't see how this will work as my butter is mixed in so well

there are not any clumps to begin with. So what good will chilling do?

I guess there is no harm in trying.

> re: the cost of coconut oil. The cost typically goes down if you

buy in

> bulk. The expense of a 5-gallon supply might seem a bit much at

first

> glance, but the expense averages out well and if it means you " eat

healthy

> at home " more often than you would without a ready and abundant

supply of it

> around, it's worth it. Plus, it keeps " forever " .

A 5 gallon supply! I had no idea you could get such a thing!

Gayle

[Guest guest]

>>>Hmmm, the Xanthan gum will be hard to find.<<<

Try a health food store or the health food section of a supermarket.

Cheers,

Tas'.

[Guest guest]

>>>Hmmm, I don't see how this will work as my butter is mixed in so well there

are not any clumps to begin with. So what good will chilling do? I guess there

is no harm in trying.

You pack it together in a sausage or log shape and wrap in cling-wrap or wax

paper. The idea is that it cools into that shape then you take it out and slice

it into nice round biscuits (cookies).

Cheers,

Tas'.

[Guest guest]

>> You

>> can also add gelatin, or extra egg white.

>

>(gasp) That's what I could do with all those extra egg whites from

>making smoothies!!! Thanks Heidi Jean!!

Aha! Yeah, egg whites are great for baking (I use them for merangues a lot too

....

just whip them with some sweetener and coconut and nuts until it seems they

will clump, and bake).

> This organic wheat is what we grow so I don't buy. It is hard red

>spring wheat so it is the hardest I can get or even buy for that

>matter. Now, how what kind of cookie recipe could I make where I

>soaked the ground wheat in kefir overnight?

Oh, don't EVEN get me started on wheat ... wheat is my enemy. We have it in

for each other. Sorghum I can deal with, or millet, or pecans ... but basically,

if you soak wheat, it acts like a non-gluten flour, so use the gluten free

recipes (at which point you may as well use another grain, In My Biased

Opinion).

Even if it is hard wheat, the soaking seems to neutralize the gluten (which may

be why soaking helps digestion, but that also makes it harder to get nice

fluffy baked goods). So you'd have to add some protein or long chain

polysaccharide (Xanthan gum, egg white, etc) if you want it fluffy.

I can buy Xanthan gum in the grocery store, and one bag lasts forever

(use 1 tsp per cup of flour). But using that plus sorghum flour, which has

no gluten, works fine in most recipes, esp. cookies. You might try the egg

white if you can't get xanthan gum (or if it doesn't agree with you, some folks

it doesn't get along with).

>I haven't had any health problems using wheat. I'm pretty healthy

>except for the occassional itchy hive!!

>

>Gayle

And what causes the occasional itchy hive? You may be among the 60% of

the population that doesn't react to wheat. I THOUGHT I was in that camp ...

until I experimented ... I used to eat plates of pasta, believe it or not, and

bake

homemade bread. The one thing I have learned in the last 5 years is ... question

everything ... assume nothing ... anyway, gliadin gloms onto the villi in almost

everyone, which can affect absorption of other nutrients even if you aren't

allergic to it. If you are growing it, then I could see it would be easier to

use

what you grow though.

-- Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>

> A 5 gallon supply! I had no idea you could get such a thing!

Gayle, i bought my 5 gallon bucket of coconut oil about a year ago and

there's still a goodly amount left.

Elaine

[Guest guest]

Not that I have anything HELPFUL to add, but I have made the Peanut cookies

from NT and they were extremely crumbly. I think it's the butter......and

no flour.

Nanette